NBA 2022-2023

[Ladron de redcafe]

It's Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird, they are the 3 guys who won 3 in a row. Lebron has 4 but he never won 3 in a row.

Yeah, Bird is the only player since the merger to do it. And you wonder how many he would have had, had he not injured his back.

On another note, had you told anyone back in the spring of 2013 ( when the Heat were winning 27 games in a row and in en route to winning their 2nd straight title) that Lebron would never win another MVP award again, you'd have been called crazy.

 

[ExoduS]

Next up is to target a repeat. Nobody besides the Lakers (2000-2002, 2009-2010), Miami (2012 -2013), and the Warriors (2017-2018) have done it in this millennium.

If he gets another title and FMVP, he'll join an elite category (players with multiple MVPs AND multiple FMVPs)

Jordan 6FMVPS and 5 MVPs
Lebron 4FMVPs and 4MVPs
Kareem 2FMVPs and 6MVPs
Magic 3FMVPs and 3 MVPs
Duncan 3FMVPs and 2MVPs
Larry Bird 2MVPs and 3 MVPs
And Russell and Wilt (5 MVPs and 4MVPs respectively) would have won FMVPs had the award existed back when they were playing.

Call me greedy but Nuggets should be able to repeat this. I don't think they even played that well in the finals and won it. Obviously a lot of things have to go right in order to do a repeat. One injury can totally take things sideways (as they did derail Nuggets already). Healthy Nuggets might have been here already last year.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Call me greedy but Nuggets should be able to repeat this. I don't think they even played that well in the finals and won it. Obviously a lot of things have to go right in order to do a repeat. One injury can totally take things sideways (as they did derail Nuggets already). Healthy Nuggets might have been here already last year.

You never know how things go. I've lost count of the number of times people confidently predicted a success the following season for the champions (Boston after the 2008 finals, Miami after the 2013 finals, Golden State after the 2018 finals, even the Bucks after 2021). Things don't always play out as you plan for a myriad of factors. Even if injuries don't play a role, sometimes hunger isn't there and the margins are so tight that even at 99% instead of 100% could be the difference.

But I do think you'll be proven right in this case, given how much chemistry they have and how well they play as a team. If anything, winning might instill a belief in them that makes them a much better team as they move forward.

 

[HTG]

Jokic just won it all and you lot straight to argue about Jokic/ Embid MVP all over again? Jezz..

They are not even really disagreeing. That’s what makes this discussion so weird.

 

[Andrade]

I kept repeating that the conversation is so pointless but people love bringing it up. Irrelevant reward. This is what matters - championship.

MVPs are not as important as chips but they are far from irrelevant.

 

[Andrade]

You never know how things go. I've lost count of the number of times people confidently predicted a success the following season for the champions (Boston after the 2008 finals, Miami after the 2013 finals, Golden State after the 2018 finals, even the Bucks after 2021). Things don't always play out as you plan for a myriad of factors. Even if injuries don't play a role, sometimes hunger isn't there and the margins are so tight that even at 99% instead of 100% could be the difference.

But I do think you'll be proven right in this case, given how much chemistry they have and how well they play as a team. If anything, winning might instill a belief in them that makes them a much better team as they move forward.

Absolutely. No guarantees at all but this team does seem built for more success, if they get the necessary breaks.

 

[RobinLFC]

I am not sure he should have gotten it in 2006, either, to be honest. Plenty of all time greats played with poor teammates which hurt their MVP cases because of poor team records. I'm not sure Kobe should have been given an MVP when others didn't despite having better records than the 45 wins the 2006 Lakers were at.

Kobe had his best statistical season in 2006, but he was still not the best in the world in any advanced metric. Even at his best, he trailed Dirk in every category. When you compound that with a poor team record, I'm not sure it's that compelling of an argument.

Steve Nash lost his 2nd best player and lead the Suns to the 2nd best record in their division. That's not to say Steve Nash was heads and shoulders above anyone in the league. If anything, I think Dirk had a strong claim that season, leading the league in advanced statistical metrics AND impact stats while leading his team to 60 wins.

The MVP vote is purely based on the regular season, but as just as with this year's Jokic-Embidd fiasco, it made the suggestion by some that Kobe was robbed (not your words, to be fair to you)...silly, based on his performance. Blowing a 3-1 lead with 1 point in the second half of game 7 was a far cry from what Dirk did, leading his team to the finals. Nash, ofcourse, was the one leading the Suns to what was only the 8th 3-1 comeback in nba history against Kobe and the lakers.

While I understand advanced metrics definitely count for something, they don't tell the story of how truly dominant Bryant was in a team bereft of talent. Our second best player was a still quite poor Odom back then, while Nash had All-Stars with Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, and MIP Boris Diaw. Marion led the team in points, rebounds, steals and blocks per game.

As for Bryant, there are several iconic records in that 05/06 season: the 81-point game, outscoring the Mavs 62-61 in 3 quarters, the only player in a season besides Wilt to average 40+ PPG in a calendar month, ...

While you make out to be the Suns 3-1 comeback as something in Nash' favour, the Lakers didn't have any business even being in the playoffs that season, and it only was because of how Bryant performed that season.

I have no qualms with anyone arguing he shouldn't have won one, so don't necessarily disagree. There are counter-arguments though, I think it would've made more sense, if you were to award one to Bryant right retroactively (which is of course a useless exercise), to give it to him in 2006 and CP3 in 2008.

 

[Andrade]

Players in NBA history with at least 2 MVPs and 1 FMVP:

Wilt
Kareem
Moses Malone
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Steph Curry
Giannis
Jokic

Bill Russell and Bob Pettit would obviously be on this list too but the FMVP did not exist when they won their titles.

 

[charlton66]

Congrats to Nuggets. Fully deserved.

 

[Andrade]

Next up is to target a repeat. Nobody besides the Lakers (2000-2002, 2009-2010), Miami (2012 -2013), and the Warriors (2017-2018) have done it in this millennium.

If he gets another title and FMVP, he'll join an elite category (players with multiple MVPs AND multiple FMVPs)

Jordan 6FMVPS and 5 MVPs
Lebron 4FMVPs and 4MVPs
Kareem 2FMVPs and 6MVPs
Magic 3FMVPs and 3 MVPs
Duncan 3FMVPs and 2MVPs
Larry Bird 2MVPs and 3 MVPs
And Russell and Wilt (5 MVPs and 4MVPs respectively) would have won FMVPs had the award existed back when they were playing.

Oops, missed your post and I've just done something very similar. My bad.

 

[Andrade]

Next up is to target a repeat. Nobody besides the Lakers (2000-2002, 2009-2010), Miami (2012 -2013), and the Warriors (2017-2018) have done it in this millennium.

If he gets another title and FMVP, he'll join an elite category (players with multiple MVPs AND multiple FMVPs)

Jordan 6FMVPS and 5 MVPs
Lebron 4FMVPs and 4MVPs
Kareem 2FMVPs and 6MVPs
Magic 3FMVPs and 3 MVPs
Duncan 3FMVPs and 2MVPs
Larry Bird 2MVPs and 3 MVPs
And Russell and Wilt (5 MVPs and 4MVPs respectively) would have won FMVPs had the award existed back when they were playing.

Wilt did win one FMVP but the award didn't exist for much of his career. He only won 2 titles though, compared to Russell's 11.

 

[Bepi]

Can’t see why WUMs have hijacked and now taken over this thread… or maybe yes, I can see quite well the issue with a number of historical NBA fans (not here, not only) troubled by Doncic and now Jokic pissing “their” league. Alas, on top of this is the even more troubled Balkan fans with their etno-nationalistic sh*t, and their flags for the upcoming WC tournament. Well done, Denver, the only adult team with Miami in the NBA pram this year.

 

[adexkola]

Can’t see why WUMs have hijacked and now taken over this thread… or maybe yes, I can see quite well the issue with a number of historical NBA fans (not here, not only) troubled by Doncic and now Jokic pissing “their” league. Alas, on top of this is the even more troubled Balkan fans with their etno-nationalistic sh*t, and their flags for the upcoming WC tournament. Well done, Denver, the only adult team with Miami in the NBA pram this year.

Eh? Who do you speak of?

Can the Balkan fans bring some flares with them? Would love to see MSG lit up

 

[JPRouve]

Eh? Who do you speak of?

Can the Balkan fans bring some flares with them? Would love to see MSG lit up

I thought that it was best left alone. It made no sense.

 

[ExoduS]

MVPs are not as important as chips but they are far from irrelevant.

What are they relevant for? Personal glory perhaps and this new culture of liking / following players instead of teams. Now, I'm not gonna lie, I like Jokic and not Denver but still I think the championship is far more important than an MVP award.

 

[Andrade]

Can’t see why WUMs have hijacked and now taken over this thread… or maybe yes, I can see quite well the issue with a number of historical NBA fans (not here, not only) troubled by Doncic and now Jokic pissing “their” league. Alas, on top of this is the even more troubled Balkan fans with their etno-nationalistic sh*t, and their flags for the upcoming WC tournament. Well done, Denver, the only adult team with Miami in the NBA pram this year.

Who is troubled by Doncic and Jokic? Odd post.

 

[Andrade]

What are they relevant for? Personal glory perhaps and this new culture of liking / following players instead of teams. Now, I'm not gonna lie, I like Jokic and not Denver but still I think the championship is far more important than an MVP award.

Of course it is relevant. It's like saying the Ballo D'Or is not relevant. Makes no sense

 

[Zen]

What are they relevant for? Personal glory perhaps and this new culture of liking / following players instead of teams. Now, I'm not gonna lie, I like Jokic and not Denver but still I think the championship is far more important than an MVP award.

I'd say the new culture is more shitting on anything unless you've won the ring to be fair.... it's tedious and boring, and definitely forced loyalty out of the game a fair bit. But at least we're coming full circle again and getting a good depth of teams that aren't far from being somewhat evenly matched.

MLB and it's fans has the right balance, but they're old school. If that was Basketball fans, Trout would get no respect.

 

[stepic]

Of course it is relevant. It's like saying the Ballo D'Or is not relevant. Makes no sense

No player would choose a ballon dor over a cl win, that’s the point

championships are the most important

congrats to the nuggets! Easily the best team this year

 

[cafecillos]

No player would choose a ballon dor over a cl win, that’s the point

championships are the most important

congrats to the nuggets! Easily the best team this year

I personally and baselessly think that's not true at all.

 

[ExoduS]

Ballo D'Or takes into consideration winning. I am not sure what MVP award means to Embid at this point. It's almost a mockery. Last year and year before Jokic won it but got swept and then gentlemen swept. It's like: "you have been great in this semi exhibition competition. Props to you"

They really need to tailor down those MVPs... Give one at the end of the season. It's just too much. Regular season, conference finals, actual finals... Just too many MVP awards. Regular season MVP award matters as much as Bucks' regular season best record.

 

[Andrade]

No player would choose a ballon dor over a cl win, that’s the point

championships are the most important

congrats to the nuggets! Easily the best team this year

That's not the point. Obviously a championship is more important than an MVP and I've already said that. However, that does not make MVPs "irrelevant'.

 

[Andrade]

Ballo D'Or takes into consideration winning. I am not sure what MVP award means to Embid at this point. It's almost a mockery. Last year and year before Jokic won it but got swept and then gentlemen swept. It's like: "you have been great in this semi exhibition competition. Props to you"

They really need to tailor down those MVPs... Give one at the end of the season. It's just too much. Regular season, conference finals, actual finals... Just too many MVP awards. Regular season MVP award matters as much as Bucks' regular season best record.

False. It's an award for the regular season. Like the NFL MVP is an award for the NFL regular season. I don't know know what's complicated about this. I'm sure most people who win MVPs are very grateful for the award, even if it's not their main goal.

 

[ExoduS]

False. It's an award for the regular season. Like the NFL MVP is an award for the NFL regular season. I don't know know what's complicated about this. I'm sure most people who win MVPs are very grateful for the award, even if it's not their main goal.

It is not complicated, it is pointless. Regular season in NBA almost does not matter. 1 play in team made it to conference finals, another made it to NBA finals. NFL is a different sport and there are no bases to compare NFL regular season to NBA regular season. NFL regular season actually matters.

 

[Andrade]

It is not complicated, it is pointless. Regular season in NBA almost does not matter. 1 play in team made it to conference finals, another made it to NBA finals. NFL is a different sport and there are no bases to compare NFL regular season to NBA regular season. NFL regular season actually matters.

Complete nonsense. Saying the NBA MVP is pointless is just an asinine view.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Yeah, Bird is the only player since the merger to do it. And you wonder how many he would have had, had he not injured his back.

On another note, had you told anyone back in the spring of 2013 ( when the Heat were winning 27 games in a row and in en route to winning their 2nd straight title) that Lebron would never win another MVP award again, you'd have been called crazy.

Yeah, that really is crazy. Unfortunately, since that last Heat title the regular season has become a stat padding exercise for a lot of players and peaked with the Westbrook and Harden MVP wins.

LeBron always turned up in the play offs though and even MJ would have struggled to win more than rings in the GSW dominated 3 point or nothing era. No slight on him and I still think he would be the best in the league. LeBron would thrive in any era as well and so would Jokic. I don't get the same feeling from a lot of the other stars today who I feel would have struggled physically, there are some obvious exceptions of course. The same goes for previous greats whose strengths wouldn't necessarily be a fit for the modern game.

The Nuggets are just so easy for a neutral to root for as they don't have a Draymond type who I'm sure was the main reason many fans could never root for GSW despite Curry being so fun to watch.

 

[Zen]

It is not complicated, it is pointless. Regular season in NBA almost does not matter. 1 play in team made it to conference finals, another made it to NBA finals. NFL is a different sport and there are no bases to compare NFL regular season to NBA regular season. NFL regular season actually matters.

This doesn't damper the MVP though.... it dampens the importance of the regular season for teams, not the individual. At least unlike the NHL, they don't absurdly give out awards for the best conference record, and you know why? Because it's pointless. Especially nowadays in the post 73-9 didn't actually mean anything world. But Steph was still the clear MVP of that season, and was absolutely legendary in it...

 

[JPRouve]

This doesn't damper the MVP though.... it dampens the importance of the regular season for teams, not the individual. At least unlike the NHL, they don't absurdly give out awards for the best conference record, and you know why? Because it's pointless. Especially nowadays in the post 73-9 didn't actually mean anything world. But Steph was still the clear MVP of that season, and was absolutely legendary in it...

What do you mean by that? The NHL has the Prince of Wales, Clarence campbell and Presidents' trophies.

 

[Zen]

To be fair, and I'm not trying to be rude.... but given the context of what you quoted and not just what you bolded since I accidently put in conference and not league, you can surely figure it out?

2 aren't for the regular season nor for their league record.

 

[JPRouve]

To be fair, and I'm not trying to be rude.... but given the context of what you quoted and not just what you bolded since I accidently put in conference and not league, you can surely figure it out?

2 aren't for the regular season nor for their league record.

I asked because I wasn't sure. Which is why I put both conference trophies and also the league trophy celebrating the team with the best regular season record.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

While I understand advanced metrics definitely count for something, they don't tell the story of how truly dominant Bryant was in a team bereft of talent. Our second best player was a still quite poor Odom back then, while Nash had All-Stars with Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, and MIP Boris Diaw. Marion led the team in points, rebounds, steals and blocks per game.

As for Bryant, there are several iconic records in that 05/06 season: the 81-point game, outscoring the Mavs 62-61 in 3 quarters, the only player in a season besides Wilt to average 40+ PPG in a calendar month, ...

While you make out to be the Suns 3-1 comeback as something in Nash' favour, the Lakers didn't have any business even being in the playoffs that season, and it only was because of how Bryant performed that season.

I have no qualms with anyone arguing he shouldn't have won one, so don't necessarily disagree. There are counter-arguments though, I think it would've made more sense, if you were to award one to Bryant right retroactively (which is of course a useless exercise), to give it to him in 2006 and CP3 in 2008.

Advanced metrics tell more of a story than random scoring sprees The Lakers team that "bereft of talent" consisted of a better supporting cast than Jordan's late 80s Bulls (just an example) and he had no problems making the playoffs, and played much better in both the regular season and playoffs.

The comparison of Nash's help and Kobe's misses the point because they all look better because Nash routinely elevated his teammates much more than Kobe did. The Pheonix Suns went from 21st in offensive rating to 1st overnight precisely because Nash was an offensive genius. Kobe had a "me first" way of playing, which did the opposite with his teammates.

That Lakers team definitely had enough talent to make the playoffs. Not enough to be a contender, but definitely enough to make the playoffs, as did the previous years lakers which missed the playoffs despite Kobe having Butler on his team.

Not sure what you're even attempting to argue when it comes to the Lakers Suns series. Choking a 3-1 lead and scoring a solitary point in the second half of game 7 is definitely not in Kobe's favor.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Complete nonsense. Saying the NBA MVP is pointless is just an asinine view.

Yeah I wonder whether he meant something else. Obviously the MVP isn't pointless. Lots of all time players ahev placed and continue to place importance when it comes to the MVP. Russell used to bring up his MVPs when asked about the Wilt comparisons during their playing days. Kareem used to take pride in them.

Jordan (who, to be fair, takes umbrage at anything) went to another level against Malone's Jazz when the latter won the 97 MVP despite Jordan leading the Bulls to 69 wins that year and being better statistically.

The MVP has always mattered, and will continue to do so. But it also doesn't mean that people aren't exactly aware of what it is - a regular season award. And that a player's legacy is defined in large part by their post season accomplishments.

 

[Jim Beam]

Was raving a bit about Gordon defense already, but run into some other stats even before playoffs which were a sign of things to come. Thought it might interest some.

Over the past three seasons, Butler has scored only 11.4 points per 100 plays when defended by Aaron Gordon, according to Second Spectrum. He’s at 17.9 points or better against every other defender he’s faced (minimum 100 matchups). Butler also has an effective field goal percentage of just 26 percent when Gordon guards him, versus 35 percent or better against everyone else.

Didn't know about this and I was dead wrong in thinking that the Nuggets will struggle to stop Jimmy. Tbf part of that is because LeBron, when he did have energy, went through Gordon as his primary defender much more easier. In the end, this is in some way praise to LeBron as well because he was the only one with whom Gordon struggled a bit defensively through these playoffs. And he still managed (with help from Murray) to get that final stop on LeBron in game 4 to win the series.



He forced 9 turnovers from KAT and 12 from Durant as well (again just 1 from LeBron)

Can't find numbers for the finals when Gordon was primary defender against Jimmy, but am pretty certain they ain't good. Jimmy's overall numbers were 21.6 points, 6.4 assists and 4.6 rebounds on 41% shooting (his stats before the finals were something like 28/7/6). Of course, it's not only Gordon who did his job defensively, but Butler clearly tried to get a switch as much as he could when Gordon was guarding him.

What did even the Nuggets give to get Gordon from Orlando? Harris, Hampton and 2025 protected first pick. Great trade looking back and just what this team needed.

 

[stepic]

That's not the point. Obviously a championship is more important than an MVP and I've already said that. However, that does not make MVPs "irrelevant'.

agree they’re not irrelevant. Lots of championships winning teams have mvp winners in them

 

[Andrade]

Yeah I wonder whether he meant something else. Obviously the MVP isn't pointless. Lots of all time players ahev placed and continue to place importance when it comes to the MVP. Russell used to bring up his MVPs when asked about the Wilt comparisons during their playing days. Kareem used to take pride in them.

Jordan (who, to be fair, takes umbrage at anything) went to another level against Malone's Jazz when the latter won the 97 MVP despite Jordan leading the Bulls to 69 wins that year and being better statistically.

The MVP has always mattered, and will continue to do so. But it also doesn't mean that people aren't exactly aware of what it is - a regular season award. And that a player's legacy is defined in large part by their post season accomplishments.

Yes, and I wouldn't quibble with that at all

 

[sport2793]

Was raving a bit about Gordon defense already, but run into some other stats even before playoffs which were a sign of things to come. Thought it might interest some.

Didn't know about this and I was dead wrong in thinking that the Nuggets will struggle to stop Jimmy. Tbf part of that is because LeBron, when he did have energy, went through Gordon as his primary defender much more easier. In the end, this is in some way praise to LeBron as well because he was the only one with whom Gordon struggled a bit defensively through these playoffs. And he still managed (with help from Murray) to get that final stop on LeBron in game 4 to win the series.



He forced 9 turnovers from KAT and 12 from Durant as well (again just 1 from LeBron)

Can't find numbers for the finals when Gordon was primary defender against Jimmy, but am pretty certain they ain't good. Jimmy's overall numbers were 21.6 points, 6.4 assists and 4.6 rebounds on 41% shooting (his stats before the finals were something like 28/7/6). Of course, it's not only Gordon who did his job defensively, but Butler clearly tried to get a switch as much as he could when Gordon was guarding him.

What did even the Nuggets give to get Gordon from Orlando? Harris, Hampton and 2025 protected first pick. Great trade looking back and just what this team needed.

AG has been a great defender since college and that was arguably his best skill coming into the league.

 

[Jim Beam]

AG has been a great defender since college and that was arguably his best skill coming into the league.

True, true.. as I say, I was somewhat fooled with the way LeBron managed to go through him at times going into these finals. Looking through the whole playoffs, just brilliant defensive numbers which I thought was worth showing.

In general, this was actually (along with objective gap in quality between 2 teams) a really bad matchup for the Heat with Gordon on Butler, the likes of KCP, Brown matching up great against the Heat shooters. Having Jokic is a massive problem for anyone defensively and as a bonus he is probably the best player to have against the Heat zone that they so often deploy to disrupt the opponent.

In the end, the Nuggets visibly made the Heat look worse than they actually are in these finals.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I kind of wish Celtics achieved that reverse sweep. They would’ve been better competitors in the final.

 

[Bepi]

I kind of wish Celtics achieved that reverse sweep. They would’ve been better competitors in the final.

The owners do not seem fully invested in this instalment yet? Things will change once Brown is given the supermax, in case: with all the money at stake, they toughen up and focus on their strengths or trades will happen.

 

[entropy]

hearing pelicans might be interested in the blazers pick. I wouldn’t mind brandon ingram over mikal bridges tbh if we are really gonna trade away the third pick.