NBA 2019-2020

giorno said:
That's the point i was making, also mentioned in that espn article. The 90s bulls with MJ were historical juggernauts. Which of LeBron's teams can say the same?
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How can the fact that no one was able defeat MJ's Bulls in the 90's be used as a slight on MJ?

We saw what the Bulls achieved when Jordan went on hiatus. If they were historical juggernauts, wouldn't they have at least made the finals without him instead of getting knocked out by the perennial choker NY Knicks in the ECSF? No doubt he had a good team around him, but MJ was the one that made them the juggernauts.

Moby said:
Like I said he wouldn't get a two year luxury break playing baseball in this case. Going to the nba finals 10 times takes a massive toll on any body. That's one of LeBrons biggest achievement that is still be able to be the best player in the league after playing non stop and going to finals every year since forever.
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Situation isn't like for like though. The advances in sports medicine have come leaps and bounds since the day MJ entered the league. Lebron wasn't even born when MJ made his debut. Also, everyone who was around Jordan while he was with the Barons has said that he was always the first to practice and last to leave (asking the coaches to stay longer), constantly trying to get better since he wasn't good. It wasn't like he was at the Caribbeans soaking in the sun.
 
Jim Beam said:
Winning three-peat is incredibly hard, so draining for the team, it is easy to see why it's so rare. Ask Dubs, Spurs or Heat. Winning it twice is unbelievable.

You could turn the argument around too. Go playing baseball for 2 years and then return like you never left the game. Right back at the very top with no one even close to you.. I can't see anyone being able to do that other then MJ.
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Think it would be a massive advantage for anyone unless you are out due to any injury. Consider any top player in any sport. Both mental and physical fatigue pile up whether you are Messi or Federer or LeBron. Anyone who would take similar time out would 99% of the time come back with more hunger and better shape while not having forgotten how to do what they are great at.
 
ArseHat said:
How can the fact that no one was able defeat MJ's Bulls in the 90's be used as a slight on MJ?

We saw what the Bulls achieved when Jordan went on hiatus. If they were historical juggernauts, wouldn't they have at least made the finals without him instead of getting knocked out by the perennial choker NY Knicks in the ECSF? No doubt he had a good team around him, but MJ was the one that made them the juggernauts.

Situation isn't like for like though. The advances in sports medicine have come leaps and bounds since the day MJ entered the league. Lebron wasn't even born when MJ made his debut. Also, everyone who was around MJ while he was with the Barons said that he was always the first to practice and last to leave (asking the coaches to stay longer), constantly trying to get better since he wasn't good. It wasn't like he was at the Caribbeans soaking in the sun.
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My heart goes out to MJ for being the first one to practice and being the last one to leave but like I said you're fecking nuts if you are gonna compare that to playing an entire season of top level professional basketball let alone taking the team to the finals and squaring off against an all time great superteam.
 
WI_Red said:
I'm going to drop this and run for cover, but I think the 95-96 Bulls could have taken he Durrant/Curry/Thomson/Green warriors. It would have gone 6-7, but they match up great defensively. Look at the matchups!!! :drool::

PG: Curry v. Harper
SG: Thompson v. MJ
SF: Durrant v. Pippen
PF: Green v. Rodman
C: Zaza/McGee v. Longley
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It's an impossible matchup to make. Different eras, different rules. I mean, 3 of those bulls would be unplayable in a playoff series in 16/17. Not to mention a team taking few 3s vs the greatest 3 point shooting team ever? Yeah, i don't see how those bulls win 1 game under 16/17 rules honestly. Under 90s rules it's more of a contest, but again, one team is taking 30-40 3s a game and the other is taking what, 5? 10? Harper was a great defender, but Curry is quite a bit different from anything he had to defend, given his range. Durant is a 7 footer, i don't see how Pippen can do anything against him either. And you don't want 30+ year old MJ running marathons with Klay either. In fact, the warriors actually match up better defensively with the bulls than the other way around
Steph on Harper
KD/Klay/Iggy/Green splitting time in MJ an Pippen
The two not taking MJ/Pippen take the other 2 who weren't really dangerous scorers

The bulls would be the ones having to adapt and start Kukoc
Moby said:
Probably consider how many rings MJ would have had if he had LeBrons career. No chance he wins a ring with that cavs first stint or even takes them to the finals once. Probably wins 3 or maybe 4 at Heat. No chance Cavs beat Dubs in 2016 having any player ever aside LeBron. And don't think MJ leads a championship winning team at 35 especially with no luxury vacation to rejuvenate his career. So yeah overall 3 or at a stretch 4 rings while losing every final vs Dubs.
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MJ doesn't win in 13/14 either, Wade and Bosh were gassed entering the finals. Otherwise i agree
 
Moby said:
Think it would be a massive advantage for anyone unless you are out due to any injury. Consider any top player in any sport. Both mental and physical fatigue pile up whether you are Messi or Federer or LeBron. Anyone who would take similar time out would 99% of the time come back with more hunger and better shape while not having forgotten how to do what they are great at.
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Let's just disagree there. You see it as a time off and a break, I see it as 2 years of his prime where he wasn't even training seriously and then being able to come back using just one pre-season to get in the best shape ever.

I think missing 2 years of serious basketball/training in those years have far bigger disadvantages then advantages. And advantages are mostly mentally related.
 
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Moby said:
Sorry but if you are gonna compare that time off to actually playing in nba and taking the team to the finals then you are on your own. Other players did fine and had ok careers in the 90s without taking vacations in the middle. Kareem had an insanely long time at the top as did many others. Longevity is not a new thing in sports.
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You can't dock MJ points for "longevity" and give Lebron an edge for it, when Lebron is using all the resources available to him to prolong his career, spending large sums of money to receive the best care and facilities that Jordan didn't have access to due to technological advances. If Lebron was using the same resources MJ had, fair enough, but that's obviously not the case.
Taking a break from the top tier sport and the pressure that comes with it is obviously going to be held against him when pretty much every other player was on the court day in day out for their entire career.
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Actually the opposite. I'm not going to say that he would have won more rings if he had continued playing, since it's getting into hypotheticals and is pointless to debate, but the general consensus is that he probably would have won more titles if he had not went to play baseball.
Moby said:
My heart goes out to MJ for being the first one to practice and being the last one to leave but like I said you're fecking nuts if you are gonna compare that to playing an entire season of top level professional basketball let alone taking the team to the finals and squaring off against an all time great superteam.
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Jim's post above is pretty much what my reply would be as well. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
 
giorno said:
It's an impossible matchup to make. Different eras, different rules. I mean, 3 of those bulls would be unplayable in a playoff series in 16/17. Not to mention a team taking few 3s vs the greatest 3 point shooting team ever? Yeah, i don't see how those bulls win 1 game under 16/17 rules honestly. Under 90s rules it's more of a contest, but again, one team is taking 30-40 3s a game and the other is taking what, 5? 10? Harper was a great defender, but Curry is quite a bit different from anything he had to defend, given his range. Durant is a 7 footer, i don't see how Pippen can do anything against him either. And you don't want 30+ year old MJ running marathons with Klay either. In fact, the warriors actually match up better defensively with the bulls than the other way around
Steph on Harper
KD/Klay/Iggy/Green splitting time in MJ an Pippen
The two not taking MJ/Pippen take the other 2 who weren't really dangerous scorers

The bulls would be the ones having to adapt and start Kukoc

MJ doesn't win in 13/14 either, Wade and Bosh were gassed entering the finals. Otherwise i agree
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You are forgetting that the bulls had some great shooters as well. I had to look it up, but MJ and Kucoc shot over 40% and Kerr shot over 50%(!!!). Under 16-17 rules they may shoot lower, but they would shoot a whole lot more of them. I agree that Pippen would not have the height to match up with Durant, but with his speed and strength he could at least keep him off his spots and make it difficult. Curry would run Harper ragged but the Bulls loved to post Harper up on smaller PG's so he could make steph work there. As for MJ v. Klay? We can disagree as I have nightmares of MJ as a defender against my Lakers teams, and that was in the regular season.

I think what all this comes down to is how we witnessed MJ as we are all watching LeBron in real time. For me MJ was transcendent at a time when I was passionate about basketball in a way I can't be as an adult. I have vivid (and yes, nostalgic) memories of watching all of those finals with my dad and rooting AGAINST MJ every time (I had not choice after he was one of the villians, along with HIV of the worst few months of my Lakers basketball life.)

Jordan will always be the GOAT for me as I saw him suck the hope out of every finals he was in. You hoped your team would win the title, but you knew it was not going to happen.
 
ArseHat said:
You can't dock MJ points for "longevity" and give Lebron an edge for it, when Lebron is using all the resources available to him to prolong his career, spending large sums of money to receive the best care and facilities that Jordan didn't have access to due to technological advances. If Lebron was using the same resources MJ had, fair enough, but that's obviously not the case.
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Yeah so no one asked you to compare players from different eras in the first place. All modern players in any sport have better resources than previous generation. Likewise MJ also had better resources than previous decades and the advantage of the league's popularity kicking off on a global scale massively contributing to his fame just like how United have this massive fan base because of being the top dogs when PL went viral. Those are era specific factors and if you are gonna enter a debate between players of different eras you can't be bringing up things that applied to everyone who played in that era or should bill Russell be crying that no one gives a shit about him when he has double the chips Jordan has. What I mentioned wasn't era specific but specific to Jordan's career and how well he came back from it.
 
Moby said:
Yeah so no one asked you to compare players from different eras in the first place. All modern players in any sport have better resources than previous generation. Likewise MJ also had better resources than previous decades and the advantage of the league's popularity kicking off on a global scale massively contributing to his fame just like how United have this massive fan base because of being the top dogs when PL went viral. Those are era specific factors and if you are gonna enter a debate between players of different eras you can't be bringing up things that applied to everyone who played in that era or should bill Russell be crying that no one gives a shit about him when he has double the chips Jordan has. What I mentioned wasn't era specific but specific to Jordan's career and how well he came back from it.
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So uhm..... you are the one who first brought up Jordan vs. LeBron.
 
WI_Red said:
You are forgetting that the bulls had some great shooters as well. I had to look it up, but MJ and Kucoc shot over 40% and Kerr shot over 50%(!!!).
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Sure. But then you have Kukoc and Kerr playing defence against those warriors. Unless they can keep up with literally the 3 best shooters we've ever seen, that doesn't look like a winning formula....

I agree that Pippen would not have the height to match up with Durant, but with his speed and strength he could at least keep him off his spots and make it difficult.
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Maybe, but again, that's kevin durant

Curry would run Harper ragged but the Bulls loved to post Harper up on smaller PG's so he could make steph work there.
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And why would the warriors let him, when they can put Steph on Kerr? Harper would get the Tony Allen treatment in modern NBA

And that's pretty much were the argument ends. The NBA of the 90s and 2010s are just too different to make any meaningful team X vs team Y hypotheticals

As for MJ v. Klay? We can disagree as I have nightmares of MJ as a defender against my Lakers teams, and that was in the regular season.
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30+ years old MJ? Are we talking 1 game or a playoff series

I think what all this comes down to is how we witnessed MJ as we are all watching LeBron in real time. For me MJ was transcendent at a time when I was passionate about basketball in a way I can't be as an adult. I have vivid (and yes, nostalgic) memories of watching all of those finals with my dad and rooting AGAINST MJ every time (I had not choice after he was one of the villians, along with HIV of the worst few months of my Lakers basketball life.)

Jordan will always be the GOAT for me as I saw him suck the hope out of every finals he was in. You hoped your team would win the title, but you knew it was not going to happen.
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Yeah, this is it really. Same reason why younger people like me tend to favour LeBron(though i don't, personally, i think it's pointless to declare one is better than the other, but the debate is interesting :D )
 
Moby said:
Yeah so no one asked you to compare players from different eras in the first place. All modern players in any sport have better resources than previous generation. Likewise MJ also had better resources than previous decades and the advantage of the league's popularity kicking off on a global scale massively contributing to his fame just like how United have this massive fan base because of being the top dogs when PL went viral. Those are era specific factors and if you are gonna enter a debate between players of different eras you can't be bringing up things that applied to everyone who played in that era or should bill Russell be crying that no one gives a shit about him when he has double the chips Jordan has. What I mentioned wasn't era specific but specific to Jordan's career and how well he came back from it.
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I neither initiated the talk about eras, nor did I initiate the talk about longevity. Naturally, since the current debate in this thread is about MJ vs Lebron, different eras have been compared. My point was that you can't knock MJ for longevity in relation to Lebron when they had different resources at their disposal, which was in response to a post comparing their longevity.
 
ArseHat said:
I neither initiated the talk about eras, nor did I initiate the talk about longevity. Naturally, since the current debate in this thread is about MJ vs Lebron, different eras have been compared. My point was that you can't knock MJ for longevity in relation to Lebron when they had different resources at their disposal, which was in response to a post comparing their longevity.
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It maybe unfair but it is what it is. Same goes when Jordan is hailed as the GOAT which is unfair to older players who were not lucky to have the same training tactics or exposure. If you have an issue with LeBron getting lauded for longevity due to all the modern science and conditioning you should also have a problem with Jordan being lauded for his ability to put down 6 championship wins when Russell did it 11 times with his teammates dribbling with one hand and what not.
 
Moby said:
It maybe unfair but it is what it is. Same goes when Jordan is hailed as the GOAT which is unfair to older players who were not lucky to have the same training tactics or exposure. If you have an issue with LeBron getting lauded for longevity due to all the modern science and conditioning you should also have a problem with Jordan being lauded for his ability to put down 6 championship wins when Russell did it 11 times with his teammates dribbling with one hand and what not.
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I don't have any issue with someone who has Russell as their GOAT if they were alive to see him play back then and are able to compare him to the contemporaries. Who am I to tell them who was better if they have seen them all play while I haven't?

I have seen both MJ and Lebron play which is what I am using to judge who I deem to be the greater player.
 
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ArseHat said:
I don't have any issue with it if they were alive to see Russell play back then and are able to compare him to the contemporaries. Who am I to tell them who was better if they have seen them all play while I haven't?

I have seen both MJ and Lebron play which is what I am using to judge who I deem to be the greater player.
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I wasn't talking about you specifically but the general consensus which puts Jordan as the GOAT and putting the 6 championship wins as the main reason for that and that obviously includes plenty of people who watched Bill Wilt Kareem and all those guys. In the end the older players careers were never covered as extensively and as detailed as Jordan's to highlight their greatness to the same extent and that's unfair to them especially when in Bill's case he did double of what Jordan's biggest selling point is. People including players and pundits who watched all of those players wouldn't name anyone buy MJ as that's the narrative that's been set ever since his name blew off and basketball became far more mainstream than it ever was. Anyone who objectively thinks Jordan or LeBron possess some extra level of skillset that can't be found anywhere else in the sport are going against the odds.

As for your own preference thats fine but that wasnt the point I was replying to or care about. The point was that different eras have different factors which may make things easier or tougher for players and that obviously contributes to any player and what they have done. It's completely logical to have that opinion and no one is denying that but if that's your stance where you think different eras can't be compared due to having their own pros and cons then you should not be entering a debate between players who belong to different eras. Can't do both.
 
Jim Beam said:
You could turn the argument around too. Go playing baseball for 2 years and then return like you never left the game. Right back at the very top with no one even close to you.. I can't see anyone being able to do that other then MJ.
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I'm sorry but that's some absolute bullshit. Loads of world class players would be able to take a two year break and return right at the very top, and LeBron certainly would. Even in different sports, players have proven that time and time again. Nah, that's just ridiculous. The two-year absence is not necessarily a knock on Jordan but it is definitely one that plays in James' favor, as his consecutive Finals appearances is an incredible record that won't be matched or broken for a very, very long time.
 
RobinLFC said:
I'm sorry but that's some absolute bullshit. Loads of world class players would be able to take a two year break and return right at the very top, and LeBron certainly would. Even in different sports, players have proven that time and time again. Nah, that's just ridiculous. The two-year absence is not necessarily a knock on Jordan but it is definitely one that plays in James' favor, as his consecutive Finals appearances is an incredible record that won't be matched or broken for a very, very long time.
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I definitely can't see it being that easy, or many players doing it in that fashion at the age of 32, but to each his own. And it is again not a knock on LeBron longevity, he has a clear advantage in that sense.

Anyway, couldn't care less tbh. The truth will most likely be in what @WI_Red said. People will always be more connected with the player they grew up watching at his peak.
 
Changing topics, it is very likely that high school team mates are drafter in the top 5 this year. Anyone else know off the top of their head who they are? :D

Also, I am racking my brain and can't think of this every happening, or coming close to happening, in the past.
 


I don't know how I feel about Ty Lue being the head coach for the Clippers. I guess we'll get to see more of his work without a dominant personality in LeBron.
 
It looks like the Rockets are going to move in a different direction all together.

 
Moby said:
Sorry but if you are gonna compare that time off to actually playing in nba and taking the team to the finals then you are on your own. Other players did fine and had ok careers in the 90s without taking vacations in the middle. Kareem had an insanely long time at the top as did many others. Longevity is not a new thing in sports. Taking a break from the top tier sport and the pressure that comes with it is obviously going to be held against him when pretty much every other player was on the court day in day out for their entire career.
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And if you think even minor league baseball and basketball compare in terms of where you need to be at - physicality, mentality.. it wasn't a vacation. Minor league baseball in the 90's is of a far higher level than people think.... bare in mind where the MLB was at this point.

He also does DO better with the first run Cavs - I'd say guaranteed, but it's not. But losing to a Dwight-led Magic? And almost certainly wins 4 with the Heat too...he and AD win... so theres 5, if not 6... and still retires at 35 - just no college or 2 years at Baseball.

Rust is rust - it's bonkers he came back so well.... twice. Because he was no slouch at the Wizards with an absolutely scrubtastic team, they make the East semi's if he'd stayed fit. Ditto Lakers with LeBron last year btw.
 
Zen said:
He also does DO better with the first run Cavs - I'd say guaranteed, but it's not. But losing to a Dwight-led Magic?
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Based on what? MJ had less success with the crappy bulls than LeBron did with the crappy cavs. The best players LeBron played with on those iterations of the cavs were...who? Mo Williams? Delonte West? Big Z? Varejao?

And losing to Dwight? Look up the series LeBron had against the magic :lol:

Btw the disrespect towards Dwight :lol: as if him going to the lakers at the time didn't send everyone into a meltdown. Dwight is a first ballot HoF ffs, whether you like him or not. At his peak he was the closest thing to Shaq since Shaq. He would have been a monster in the 90s. He was a monster in his prime

And almost certainly wins 4 with the Heat too...
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Forget all other considerations, when it comes down to it, the Heat lost to the spurs because they were gassed. Simple as. Game 1 was tight until LeBron had to leave the game after which the Heat got blown the feck out of the building, and they won game 2. Look up how Bosh and Wade played the rest of the series
 
... but LeBron is the best player in the league right now, yes? Probably not the best regular season player, but in the playoffs, there's no one else I'd rather have on my team than him. Even at the ripe age of 37 next playoffs.

Giannis and Harden have broken records left and right, dominating the regular season like few others. Still, when push comes to shove, grandpa James knows what it's all about.
 
giorno said:
Based on what? MJ had less success with the crappy bulls than LeBron did with the crappy cavs. The best players LeBron played with on those iterations of the cavs were...who? Mo Williams? Delonte West? Big Z? Varejao?

And losing to Dwight? Look up the series LeBron had against the magic :lol:

Btw the disrespect towards Dwight :lol: as if him going to the lakers at the time didn't send everyone into a meltdown. Dwight is a first ballot HoF ffs, whether you like him or not. At his peak he was the closest thing to Shaq since Shaq. He would have been a monster in the 90s. He was a monster in his prime


Forget all other considerations, when it comes down to it, the Heat lost to the spurs because they were gassed. Simple as. Game 1 was tight until LeBron had to leave the game after which the Heat got blown the feck out of the building, and they won game 2. Look up how Bosh and Wade played the rest of the series
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Compare the opponents MJ faced early in his career in the playoffs versus LeBron's....

East was weak as shit for the entirety of LeBron's run.

Thinking Dwight comes close to Shaq just shows that you've not watched Orlando Shaq because they're just in different class. That saying, Dwight should still be a first ballot hall of famer once he's eligible for it.
 
WI_Red said:
Changing topics, it is very likely that high school team mates are drafter in the top 5 this year. Anyone else know off the top of their head who they are? :D

Also, I am racking my brain and can't think of this every happening, or coming close to happening, in the past.
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Being dunked on by Ben Simmons is my claim to fame. He was 13/14 at that time and I had no idea who he was till after the game.
 
elmo said:
Thinking Dwight comes close to Shaq just shows that you've not watched Orlando Shaq because they're just in different class. That saying, Dwight should still be a first ballot hall of famer once he's eligible for it.
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He said "closest thing to Shaq since Shaq", not that he came close to Shaq.

I don't understand the "Losing to a Dwight-led Magic" slight either though, as if Howard was some average player back then. He was incredible during his peak at Orlando.
 
elmo said:
Compare the opponents MJ faced early in his career in the playoffs versus LeBron's....

East was weak as shit for the entirety of LeBron's run.
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Was it? He lost to the 05/06 pistons in 7, then the big 3 celtics in 7, then Dwight's magic in 6 then the big 3 celtics again in 6.

Thinking the East was weak during LeBron's first cavs stint just shows you've not watched the NBA back then :wenger:
 
giorno said:
Was it? He lost to the 05/06 pistons in 7, then the big 3 celtics in 7, then Dwight's magic in 6 then the big 3 celtics again in 6.

Thinking the East was weak during LeBron's first cavs stint just shows you've not watched the NBA back then :wenger:
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If you think any of those teams are comparable to Bird's Celtics or the Bad Boy pistons, you're off your mind.
 
elmo said:
If you think any of those teams are comparable to Bird's Celtics or the Bad Boy pistons, you're off your mind.
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That's not what i said is it?(but yes, the big 3 celtics are very much comparable to the bad boys pistons. Bird's celtics were the best east team either guy lost to though, sure)

You said the east was weak. It was not
 
giorno said:
That's not what i said is it?(but yes, the big 3 celtics are very much comparable to the bad boys pistons. Bird's celtics were the best east team either guy lost to though, sure)

You said the east was weak. It was not
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Ok fine. LeBron only started winning the East when it was weak.

Fine with that? He's a great player but that whole finals streak is a weak argument for him considering who he had to beat in the first place.
 
elmo said:
Ok fine. LeBron only started winning the East when it was weak.

Fine with that? He's a great player but that whole finals streak is a weak argument for him considering who he had to beat in the first place.
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:D

But then MJ also started winning when the East got weak :D (ok the east was still stronger when MJ was winning titles, though not by that much. I think the last few cavs years left a skewed perception of things. Not that the east wasn't weak in those years, but the cavs made it look worse than it was)

But the argument was about whether MJ could have done better than LeBron on those cavs :angel:
 
giorno said:
:D

But then MJ also started winning when the East got weak :D (ok the east was still stronger when MJ was winning titles, though not by that much)

But the argument was about whether MJ could have done better than LeBron on those cavs :angel:
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He would because he actually plays defense unlike LeBron who only started playing defense with Miami.
 
WI_Red said:
You are forgetting that the bulls had some great shooters as well. I had to look it up, but MJ and Kucoc shot over 40% and Kerr shot over 50%(!!!). Under 16-17 rules they may shoot lower, but they would shoot a whole lot more of them. I agree that Pippen would not have the height to match up with Durant, but with his speed and strength he could at least keep him off his spots and make it difficult. Curry would run Harper ragged but the Bulls loved to post Harper up on smaller PG's so he could make steph work there. As for MJ v. Klay? We can disagree as I have nightmares of MJ as a defender against my Lakers teams, and that was in the regular season.

I think what all this comes down to is how we witnessed MJ as we are all watching LeBron in real time. For me MJ was transcendent at a time when I was passionate about basketball in a way I can't be as an adult. I have vivid (and yes, nostalgic) memories of watching all of those finals with my dad and rooting AGAINST MJ every time (I had not choice after he was one of the villians, along with HIV of the worst few months of my Lakers basketball life.)

Jordan will always be the GOAT for me as I saw him suck the hope out of every finals he was in. You hoped your team would win the title, but you knew it was not going to happen.
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My view is summed up as, MJ made almost every superstar else in his era ringless, while everybody got theirs during LeBron's.
 
elmo said:
My view is summed up as, MJ made almost every superstar else in his era ringless, while everybody got theirs during LeBron's.
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Can't compare that since LeBron played in an era where superstars teamed up to win rings. Garnett wouldn't have won one if he stayed at the Timberwolves, neither would Pierce. Wade wouldn't have won another after 2006 if LeBron didn't join him. Durant didn't even try to win one on his own so joined literally the best team ever to beat LeBron. So who does that leave - Westbrook, Harden, Giannis, ...? Yep, no titles. The only one is Leonard but he won one of his while LeBron was out injured.

MJ was better than the other superstars who stayed at their own team hence he made them winless. If they teamed up like they do know there's no way to know they wouldn't have beaten Jordan collectively.
 
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