I'm sorry but thank you for perfectly encapsulating at least 50% of the Lakers fan base.
NBA 2019-2020
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I'm sorry but thank you for perfectly encapsulating at least 50% of the Lakers fan base.
The most popular franchise also has the most casual fans, not exactly a shocker.
It isn't. That's why I wasn't expressing my shock or surprise.
Can I just ask a quick question because I only have a passing knowledge of the NBA. You know how football has Ronaldo vs Messi, what is the basketball equivalent? Lebron James vs who? Because it seems like he’s unanimously the GOAT and other greats who come into the discussion e.g. Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan etc. are still seen as a tier below.
No there's no player from his generation that comes close to him. The overall GOAT debate is generally between him and Jordan. Rest are considered a tier below.
Not at all, it`s actually a close call between LeBron and Jordan with most people leaning towards the latter.
Ohh okay thanks. I guess I just see Lebron James getting so much more love on social media cos he still plays and as said there’s no one in this generation who comes close. Would you guys say it’s a thing where the older generations tend to lean towards Jordan?
Think the majority of people who watched Jordan live in action religiously claim he is the GOAT. So do most of the ex players who played with him and against him. He went to 6 NBA Finals and won all of them - won 3 titles in a row twice. So I guess there is a sense of aura and invincibility about him and it's not just nostalgia. If you have the time, you can watch the Netflix documentary on MJ - The Last Dance, to get a better picture.
To your adjectives I would add that MJ brought an aura of inevitability that broke you as a fan before the game even started. As great a players as LeBron is, and for me he's the clear #2, there is always a chance he might lose a series. With MJ you KNEW when the series started that you team was going to lose.
My impression is the majority still think MJ > LeBron actually
As for LeBron contemporaries, people just don't like Kevin Durant
I'd argue the main reason behind that stems from pre-prime LeBron's performance against the Mavs and the fact he went up against all-time great sides in the Spurs and Warriors in 6 of his 10 finals appearances. LeBron definitely had that same sense of inevitability through the East since the 11/12 season and into the 12/13 finals, possibly 13/14 even. After that, well he was still favoured and expected to win against the 67-win warriors who trounced the west before Kyrie's injury. Then he went up against the 73-9 warriors(and won), then the KD warriors who were just the best team in NBA history, the final time with George Hill as his best teammate...
This. MJ is something else. He is a tier above everyone, including LeBron.
With that said, LeBron is the best player of his generation.
Slow down my friend!
Lets discuss who MJ had to go through as I think this gets lost as time goes on. This is off the top of my head, so I may miss some stuff buuuuuut:
90-91: Beat Pistons (defending champs) that had 2 hall of famers (and dennis rodman...pre-crazy) and then the Lakers (Magic and Worthy)
91-92: Yeah, not much here, although MJ did emasculate Drexler in the finals.
92-93: Jordan scored 40 in 4 straight finals games and AVERAGED 40 a game. That Suns team had a fantastic roster (Barkley, KJ, Ainge, Ceballos, Chambers, Thunder Dan, etc.)
95-96: He has to go through Ewing, Shaq, Penny, Mourning, Hardway to get the finals against Payton and pre-fat Kemp. How many HoFers is that?
96-97: All I remember here is Malone, Stockton
97-98: Reggie Miller, them Jazz again and poor Byron Russel.
He had to go up against at least one, maybe more, HoFer in their prime in almost every round of every playoffs during both 3-peats.
I am not trying to trash LeBron (I am a Laker fan after all), but they are not on the same level as each other and in my mind there is nothing LeBron can do to catch him. LeBron stands alone as #2, but MJ...man. I was in high school for the second 3-peat and Jordan just dominated in a way I have never seen an athlete do in a team sport. If he had not taken the baseball years off he probably would have won 1-2 more titles.
MJ is pretty much the embodiment of a winner. I have yet to see anyone with the competitiveness and/or insatiable will to win that he had. After he got a taste of winning in '91, there was an unshakeable confidence that he would get the job done no matter the circumstances. No other player comes close in that regard imo. Guys like Kobe and Cristiano displayed a bit of that killer mentality, but they had moments where they showed that they were mortal. With MJ, once he was at the top of his game, the Bulls were unbeatable.
Lebron has certainly cemented his spot in the top 3, and he'll probably be considered, at worst, #2 behind MJ by the majority, but he's still had too many questionable moments where I just can't put him above Jordan. The Decision leading up to the infamous "not 1, not 2...not 7" pep rally, his '11 Finals disappearing act, the cramp game vs Spurs in '14, getting swept in the finals twice (though I'd probably give him a pass for the '07 finals), etc.
I commend Lebron for reaching the level he has, considering he was hyped up to an extraordinary level since his high school days, and he has managed to reach, if not exceed, those expectations. Can't think of another athlete who had the level of pressure and expectation to be the "next big thing", come out fulfilling their potential in the way he has. It's not really Lebron's fault, he's done his utmost to be the best player he can be. However, MJ set the bar so high in all facets of being a superstar athlete, that you more or less need to have a flawless resume to overtake him.
Lebron has certainly cemented his spot in the top 3, and he'll probably be considered, at worst, #2 behind MJ by the majority, but he's still had too many questionable moments where I just can't put him above Jordan. The Decision leading up to the infamous "not 1, not 2...not 7" pep rally, his '11 Finals disappearing act, the cramp game vs Spurs in '14, getting swept in the finals twice (though I'd probably give him a pass for the '07 finals), etc.
I commend Lebron for reaching the level he has, considering he was hyped up to an extraordinary level since his high school days, and he has managed to reach, if not exceed, those expectations. Can't think of another athlete who had the level of pressure and expectation to be the "next big thing", come out fulfilling their potential in the way he has. It's not really Lebron's fault, he's done his utmost to be the best player he can be. However, MJ set the bar so high in all facets of being a superstar athlete, that you more or less need to have a flawless resume to overtake him.
How this guy still makes millions just by having ridiculous takes to invoke discussions is truly beyond me.
No one will ever convince me that going to the Finals and losing there is actually a slight on your legacy compared to simply going out in the semis or first round.
You should read this article on ESPN which appeared last Sunday. It's long but it's well written and nuanced. Its summary at the end is how I think of it:
I give him a pass because his teams were clear underdogs in their finals losses. Maybe only the Dallas final he choked IMO. No shame losing to spurs and warriors. They were just too deep and it was a miracle he nicked one off the warriors.
I just can’t get behind this idea. What defines MJ’s greatness is that he would not let his teams lose. For 6 straight years (with a bit of baseball in the middle) he was unbeatable. He went up against multiple hall of gamers and came out a winner each time. He only ever played with one other star in his whole career. Jordan also had to go to college, so his career lost 3 years. I think there will always be a bias for those of us who watched MJ in his prime. It was fascinating to watch and completely demoralizing if you were up against him. That 90-91 season still hurts, doubly so since it was Magic’s last season. I still remember vividly the exact moment I head about his hiv diagnosis.
True, the east was stronger in the 90s, MJ's path to the finals was usually harder than LeBron's post 11/12(big 3 celtics). But in the finals, LeBron had to go up 4 times against those warriors teams that were quite simply better than anything MJ faced. The Barkley Suns were probably the best team MJ had to beat for a title and were they better than the 12-14 spurs? Hell, were they better than the 11/12 Thunder? Genuine questionSlow down my friend!
Lets discuss who MJ had to go through as I think this gets lost as time goes on. This is off the top of my head, so I may miss some stuff buuuuuut:
90-91: Beat Pistons (defending champs) that had 2 hall of famers (and dennis rodman...pre-crazy) and then the Lakers (Magic and Worthy)
91-92: Yeah, not much here, although MJ did emasculate Drexler in the finals.
92-93: Jordan scored 40 in 4 straight finals games and AVERAGED 40 a game. That Suns team had a fantastic roster (Barkley, KJ, Ainge, Ceballos, Chambers, Thunder Dan, etc.)
95-96: He has to go through Ewing, Shaq, Penny, Mourning, Hardway to get the finals against Payton and pre-fat Kemp. How many HoFers is that?
96-97: All I remember here is Malone, Stockton
97-98: Reggie Miller, them Jazz again and poor Byron Russel.
He had to go up against at least one, maybe more, HoFer in their prime in almost every round of every playoffs during both 3-peats.
LeBron has felt inevitable for a decade. Kyrie's injury and KD signing for the warriors are the reason he didn't win 4 titles in cleveland instead of 1
They lost to the magic though, in '95.
but more importantly, since '11, who did LeBron lose to, and how?
I have no problems with people opting for LeBron, but this stance he had it tougher when he literally always choose the team which will give him the best chance to win the title (even when he went back to Cleveland) is a bit ridiculous. Formed the absolute monster of a team in Miami and now the narrative is that he was battling against the mighty Spurs and Thunder. All of whom formed their team in a natural manner. It is the rest of the league who had to battle the team he created, not the other way around. And he absolutely deserved to lose both times to Spurs. Once Durant went to Golden State and joined them I agree and his title the year before is also really impressive.
To his credit, he really grew as a player and a leader during his career. Overall, a clear number 2 in my book at this point.
To his credit, he really grew as a player and a leader during his career. Overall, a clear number 2 in my book at this point.
True, the east was stronger in the 90s, MJ's path to the finals was usually harder than LeBron's post 11/12(big 3 celtics). But in the finals, LeBron had to go up 4 times against those warriors teams that were quite simply better than anything MJ faced. The Barkley Suns were probably the best team MJ had to beat for a title and were they better than the 12-14 spurs? Hell, were they better than the 11/12 Thunder? Genuine question
LeBron has felt inevitable for a decade. Kyrie's injury and KD signing for the warriors are the reason he didn't win 4 titles in cleveland instead of 1
They lost to the magic though, in '95.
but more importantly, since '11, who did LeBron lose to, and how?
I will try and write more when I get back from work, but you also need to consider the rules changes. MJ in a league with few real bigs in the paint, no hand checking, actually called flagrant, and touch fouls? LeBron would have been fine in MJs era, but many of his peers would not have.
Players like Steph would have really struggled. I think the best comp is KJ, who spent so much time injured from taking a beating every game. It’s what makes Reggie so phenomenal.
Oh, and 95? The bulls were around .500 the whole season till MJ came back for the last 20ish games and they won like 15 of them. Dude had not trained seriously for almost 2 years and come back as a top 5 player. Oh, and they absolutely murdered the Magic in 96.
This is a weird point. Those spurs were by any metric one of the best teams ever. Afaik, they project as better than any team from the 90s...except for a few iterations of the bulls
That LeBron went to Miami to create a superteam doesn't change the fact he was eventually beaten by superteams that were seemingly(certainly in the case of the warriors) better than anything MJ beat
Framing the MJ vs LeBron argument on LeBron's failures is just bizarre to me. That ESPN article is really good, and it raised the best argument for MJ over LeBron imho: that MJ was part of several absolute historical juggernauts that swept everything that came in their path. LeBron doesn't have that. And the argument that it's because of the supporting casts doesn't hold a lot of water imho. There's an element of bad luck here as well - the 16/17 cavs were very much a juggernaut, they just had the worst timing
in fact arguably the 19/20 Lakers might be the best team of LeBron's careerThis is a weird point. Those spurs were by any metric one of the best teams ever. Afaik, they project as better than any team from the 90s...except for a few iterations of the bulls
That LeBron went to Miami to create a superteam doesn't change the fact he was eventually beaten by superteams that were seemingly(certainly in the case of the warriors) better than anything MJ beat
Framing the MJ vs LeBron argument on LeBron's failures is just bizarre to me. That ESPN article is really good, and it raised the best argument for MJ over LeBron imho: that MJ was part of several absolute historical juggernauts that swept everything that came in their path. LeBron doesn't have that. And the argument that it's because of the supporting casts doesn't hold a lot of water imho. There's an element of bad luck here as well - the 16/17 cavs were very much a juggernaut, they just had the worst timing
that 12-13 Miami roster was better I think, they also won 60+ish games (I think).
Miami had the individual advantage with Wade, Bosh, LeBron and Allen imo.
If you say Ray Allen (who saved that first title) was 37 in 2013, you have Duncan at 37 and Ginobili at 36 on the other side. They were a great team, but their peak was before. A kind of "The last dance" for that generation and the real superstar team were the Heat going into the series, especially the first one. Am not sure why that narrative is turning at this point in time and the Heat are being portrayed as almost some kind of underdog going against the best team ever.
The Heat were built to be one the best teams ever and had personnel to back it.
When they were formed no one said, nope, tough luck, there are Spurs who won their last title in 2007 waiting for them.
As I said, I have no problems with people thinking that LeBron is the GOAT. He really grown and exceeded all expectations looking back, but am just not particular fan of a story where one had to battle juggernauts all his life and one had it easier when only one of them choosed and changed his teams to get superstar teammates.
In hindsight, Kawhi not joining him in this Lakers team could be the best thing for his legacy once he calls it a day.
The comment about the magic was tongue-in-cheek if it wasn't clear
As for LeBron in MJ's time i've said before that is imho a bigger what if than the usual MJ would average 40 a game today. Imagine LeBron with illegal defence, he would have averaged 40 a game...i mean, who the feck was stopping him from that era?
That's the point i was making, also mentioned in that espn article. The 90s bulls with MJ were historical juggernauts. Which of LeBron's teams can say the same?
Maybe Lakers in two/three year's time. As I said, the Heat were clearly built with that idea and potential. They were supposed to win 7 from my memory.
Funny that he went all to number 7 now that I recall (never thought about it). Maybe it is just a coincidence.
I feel like you're not getting my point. Yes, the heat were built for that. In the end they weren't, not in the way we look at the Shaq-Kobe lakers, the warriors, or the bulls. That's not a justification for LeBron not winning 4 titles in miami, it's a knock for him failing to turn them into the kind of team that can be spoken of next to those i mentioned. Yes, not all his fault obviously, but he had the talent around him, he had a great coach and organization....so where was the dominant 16-4 postseason?Maybe Lakers in two/three year's time. As I said, the Heat were clearly built with that idea and potential. They were supposed to win 7 from my memory.
Funny that he went all to number 7 now that I recall (never thought about it). Maybe it is just a coincidence.
Ah, fair enough, can see it now looking back. In all that talk about Spurs series I got a feeling you were downplaying the talent he had around him when he joined the Heat.
After the Heat, yeah, I agree. Going against that Warriors team was a tough luck and once they got Durant it was pretty much impossible.
Yeah he should have beaten the Mavs and gone on to win 3 or 4 rings after he joined Heat and had all the pieces together. That Mavs loss is the only thing I can fault him for in an otherwise flawless and unmatched career.
Heat were great when Dwyane Wade was fit. But he was broken far too often.
I'm going to drop this and run for cover, but I think the 95-96 Bulls could have taken he Durrant/Curry/Thomson/Green warriors. It would have gone 6-7, but they match up great defensively. Look at the matchups!!!
:PG: Curry v. Harper
SG: Thompson v. MJ
SF: Durrant v. Pippen
PF: Green v. Rodman
C: Zaza/McGee v. Longley
Probably consider how many rings MJ would have had if he had LeBrons career. No chance he wins a ring with that cavs first stint or even takes them to the finals once. Probably wins 3 or maybe 4 at Heat. No chance Cavs beat Dubs in 2016 having any player ever aside LeBron. And don't think MJ leads a championship winning team at 35 especially with no luxury vacation to rejuvenate his career. So yeah overall 3 or at a stretch 4 rings while losing every final vs Dubs.
I'm going to drop this and run for cover, but I think the 95-96 Bulls could have taken he Durrant/Curry/Thomson/Green warriors. It would have gone 6-7, but they match up great defensively. Look at the matchups!!!
PG: Curry v. Harper
SG: Thompson v. MJ
SF: Durrant v. Pippen
PF: Green v. Rodman
C: Zaza/McGee v. Longley
Yeah, I also always thought it would be close and they would have a chance (running in cover behind you*).
He literally did this in 98 averaging 30+
Like I said he wouldn't get a two year luxury break playing baseball in this case. Going to the nba finals 10 times takes a massive toll on any body. That's one of LeBrons biggest achievement that is still be able to be the best player in the league after playing non stop and going to finals every year since forever.
Yeah, it was not a "luxury" vacation. I lived in Birmingham and talked to some people who lived there when he played for the Barons. He road the bus to away games and was the first to show up and last to leave every day. Basically he worked his ass off for 2 years and only came back when the MLB strike persisted. Also, if you are going to call that luxury then you need to acknowledge all the advantages that LeBron has in nutrition/training/exercise science that were not around in the 90's.
Sorry but if you are gonna compare that time off to actually playing in nba and taking the team to the finals then you are on your own. Other players did fine and had ok careers in the 90s without taking vacations in the middle. Kareem had an insanely long time at the top as did many others. Longevity is not a new thing in sports. Taking a break from the top tier sport and the pressure that comes with it is obviously going to be held against him when pretty much every other player was on the court day in day out for their entire career.
Winning three-peat is incredibly hard, so draining for the team, it is easy to see why it's so rare. Ask Dubs, Spurs or Heat. Winning it twice is unbelievable.
You could turn the argument around too. Go playing baseball for 2 years and then return like you never left the game. Right back at the very top with no one even close to you.. I can't see anyone being able to do that other then MJ.