I don't ever get the need to compare players across generations, just enjoy the genius you are witnessing at that time. LeBron's been playing at an insane level for near enough 2 years now, I expected him to have a downturn eventually.
Nba 2012-13
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
- Start date
- Status
Rumors of Garnett and Rivers to the Clippers.
For whom?
Bledsoe and Jordan it seems. Rivers is an excellent coach.
Jordan and a 1st was the rumored offer. Boston wants Bledsoe and a 1st.
Yeah just a look on ESPN, difficult trade for Boston but they need to freshen up the roster and Rivers mind looks set.
It's not a good deal for LA as far as the deal itself goes. But they need to do whatever it takes in order to Paul to re-sign.
G
He's always been seen as a player who shrinks at big moments it has plagued him is whole career. But he noticeably shrinks at times we thought he had turned a corner but he has struggled these finals. For the most part he has looked a shadow of himself and has stat padded his way to good stat lines which did't reflect his game. He will always get stats but that domination, drive and hunger is lacking at times. Amazing talent and player but when comparing the very best these big moments separate them.
He's always been seen as a player who shrinks at big moments it has plagued him is whole career. But he noticeably shrinks at times we thought he had turned a corner but he has struggled these finals. For the most part he has looked a shadow of himself and has stat padded his way to good stat lines which did't reflect his game. He will always get stats but that domination, drive and hunger is lacking at times. Amazing talent and player but when comparing the very best these big moments separate them.
During his best season ever? I agree it is pointless at times comparing greats but he has no excuses.
He always had that reputation but it wasn't accurate. Those lines aren't stat padding. If you do 37-12-11 on 65% shooting that is reflected in his game.
Well look at what he's done over the last 2 years since the lockout ended. Signs were kind of there in the Indiana series, if he's not tired he's freak and has no excuses. Wade and Bosh have been so inconsistent for him this playoffs. He doesn't shirk I feel, that Game 7 he had in Boston last year was ice cold. His whole playoffs last year was ice cold, what did he average 30pts and 9 odd rebounds? I do think perhaps when he has little doubts in his game he suffers. On one hand he's got people saying he needs to takeover and on the other he's got Wade telling him he needs more touches. Earlier in the year he was so efficient people didn't notice he was only taking 14-15 shots a game. Now his shot isn't falling as much and he doesn't seem as dominant, that's basketball. He's not as single minded as Jordan and Bryant but that's not what makes him the player he is.
Too much of a drop off he is not even being assertive he looked tired yesterday though I will admit. I agree with a lot of what you said in all honesty. He has to do so much for them at both ends it would not surprise me if he was tired but that excuse will not cut it unfortunately. He is a different player he is not the scorer they are he is a playmaker who scores with ease and he is already better than Kobe imo Jordan is debatable but people always look at titles and with Jordan's legacy it will be hard to justify James> Jordan. Wade is a conundrum I don't know if I buy this 'injury' he is always injured when he is struggling but then brings out big games still where he looks fine. He struggles to assert himself as a second option at times. Game 6 in Boston you mean? the one where he took over COMPLETELY that was one for the ages , those are the games that show he is capable of it but at times he shrinks in the moment. Boris Diaw has no right to be keeping him in check or Leonard as good as he has been. Wade has led this heat team in the finals imo. Maybe Lebron is being held to too high standards but in game 4 he showed what he can/should be doing why has he not brought it every night he is visibly hesitating. In terms of 'clutch' Jordan was just perfect with it, Lebron shies away at times playing hot potato. I have realised when you pass and your team-mates scores your a 'facilitator' when they miss you are passive but his jumpshot has been good this year I was shocked to see him not taking wide open shots. Kobe overplays the clutch thing to the detriment of his team the 2010 title was won despite him attempting to shoot them out of the game.
It's a bad deal if Bledsoe is included, but great otherwise because Pierce would also probably follow. Offload Bledsoe for someone like Afflalo and that's a pretty impressive starting 5. There are even rumours of a Griffin+Bledsoe trade for Dwight! Clips seem determined to make a championship run next year
Bledsoe is slightly overrated for me an amazing athlete but he has a way to go before he is starting caliber he is better off the bench against second units. If they have Garnett,Doc and Pierce comes over where are they in the west with Chris Paul and Griffin also.
You could say that James doesn't have near the same level of killer instinct mentality that Jordan used to have in his prime but there's more to it than that.
James does so many things on the court that you could say that he doesn't really have a defined and consistent half-court offense. Often in the playoffs you can say that his half-court offense becomes very streaky(wether it be his jump shot, post up game or his step-back fadeaway), mostly going with the flow of the game and then he lapses into longer periods struggling to create his own shot(yesterdays 2nd half). Sometimes his driving game goes into lapses and he'll miss multiple easy layups. In crunch-time, when defence gets really tight, not only does he lack the same kind of mentality that Jordan possesed, but most importantly he doesn't have that consistent well-drilled footwork to create space consistently between himself and defenders, nor does he really have a fully reliable go-to move in crunch-time to get the kind of shot he wants. I think this can be very disheartening and makes it very hard for him to match his desire to take over with actually taking over.
James does so many things on the court that you could say that he doesn't really have a defined and consistent half-court offense. Often in the playoffs you can say that his half-court offense becomes very streaky(wether it be his jump shot, post up game or his step-back fadeaway), mostly going with the flow of the game and then he lapses into longer periods struggling to create his own shot(yesterdays 2nd half). Sometimes his driving game goes into lapses and he'll miss multiple easy layups. In crunch-time, when defence gets really tight, not only does he lack the same kind of mentality that Jordan possesed, but most importantly he doesn't have that consistent well-drilled footwork to create space consistently between himself and defenders, nor does he really have a fully reliable go-to move in crunch-time to get the kind of shot he wants. I think this can be very disheartening and makes it very hard for him to match his desire to take over with actually taking over.
For example, James is a much greater player than Reggie Miller, I'd still take Miller over James in crunch-time, simply because Miller's superb off-ball movement and shooting ability is gonna create a shot with higher percentage.
James will try and make the best play it is what sets him apart other guys feel if they are the guy they shoot REGARDLESS of situation. That is all good when you score when you miss it hurts your team. The Laker's would be better now if Kobe led them play through the post and didn't insist on taking every shot in the clutch. I would still have James in my top 10 players all time which is odd because what you have said is true.
Anyway, are we all aware that Tony Parker looks like a sloth?
Statistical comparisons are flawed. It doesn't take into consideration many factors that include 1) eras of play, 2) opposition available (i.e 16 clubs, 23 clubs, 30 clubs - squads gets thinner as league expands), 3) system(s) a player performs within, 4) positions played, and probably a few more. Kobe nor James were finished products at ages 18-21, and James developed quicker as he was simply a beast of epic human proportions. A one-off mix of size, height, speed, power. Yet there are stories of Kobe destroying American and European pros at age 16 when playing pickup games with his dad. He was certainly a quality player and when he arrived in LAL he had time to develop whereas James was thrust right into the limelight of a woeful Cavaliers side. Comparing their stats (and Jordan's) at comparable ages/seasons in the league is seriously flawed.
And my two cents - Kobe's two greatest offensive outputs, 81 points in one game and 62 points when he outscored Dallas (a 50+ win club) through three quarters (sat fourth quarter), are arguably the greatest one-off offensive performances in league history. A guard must create his shots, must make those shots outside 10-feet (for the most part) and Kobe is arguably the greatest shooter in league history (again, shooting percentage statistics will skewer reality), where as a guy like Wilt was so superior size-wise that he dominated the league for years. It was far easier for Wilt to get 100 than Kobe to get 81 or 62-in-3 due to Wilt being able to get multiple dunks/layups/shots inside 8-feet. LBJ is similar to Wilt in that he simply is so more powerful than any player in the league and combined with his ball-skills and speed he simply dominates. But that's also because he's a great player, just like Kobe and Wilt, and easily all three are in the Top 10 of all-time.
People love to hate on Kobe because of his personality. But make no mistake about it - he has that killer mentality, that "I will beat you now" attitude, only rivaled by Jordan in his quest for winning at all costs. Had Jordan played in today's era with social and 24-hour media following every move he wouldn't be as universally loved. Some of his personal flaws would be far more exposed, sort of like his HOF speech which was horrendous and showed his true character - that of an assassin and one that held grudges. We apparently are supposed to find that admirable in Jordan but loathe Kobe for the same trait. It's also that Kobe plays for the Lakers - the marquee club of the league and just like all-time greats for Dallas Cowboys and NY Yankees, a Lakers player is subject to far more scrutiny and dismissal simply because of the club he plays for.
Btw, Kobe has five championships, two of which he was the leading man (and Shaq doesn't win three with LAL without Kobe's support), James has one title, possibly a second on the way. Kobe lost once with the best team in the league (2004) and in 2008 the Celtics were clearly a better side. LBJ could be on the verge of his second Finals loss with the best team in the league (2011, 2013?). That said, championships and title losses shouldn't be the biggest category that defines greatness as it is a team effort and without a team effort a superstar player won't win (see Ewing, Barkley, etc.). However, when trying to identify GOATs championships and title losses must be included.
As a week-long basketball fan, he receives the honour of being my favourite player. His slothiness tipped the scales in his favour.
Kobe arrived in 1996... the Kings became playoff caliber around 1999. If Kobe was with the Kings alongside Bibby, Vlade, and Webber, it is very likely the Kings would have won three straight and not the Lakers. What if Kobe somehow ended up in Dallas in 96 and was later joined by Nash and Dirk by 1999? The Mavs would have won multiple championships in the last 12 years.
What if Charlotte had never traded Kobe's rights to LAL on draft day?
Why not claim luck that Boston got Bird sixth overall in 1978 (and he returned to college for another year)?
LAL received New Orleans Jazz first round pick in a trade, won the coin flip over Chicago, and drafted Magic first overall. That's the epitome of luck. A coin flip changed the fortunes of two clubs, though Chicago later "lucked out" when Jordan was selected third overall in 1984 (behind Olajuwon and Bowie). The Lakers hadn't been championships contenders for years until Magic arrived to help Kareem.
What if Boston had rightfully got the #1 pick (I'm sorry but the lottery is stupid) in 1997 and drafted Duncan?
Kobe the greatest shooter in league history? Kobe isn't even the greatest shooter in the 2012-13 Lakers backcourt!
Nash is a 49/43/90 shooter
Kobe is a 46/34/84 shooter
Come on Marcello.
Nash is a 49/43/90 shooter
Kobe is a 46/34/84 shooter
Come on Marcello.
Oh yeah, Ebou, the same guy that argues that WAR defines the best hitters in baseball.
Kobe is clearly a better shooter than Nash.
Kobe is clearly a better shooter than Nash.
Stockton career FG% 51.5
Jordan career FG% 49.7
That makes Stockton a better shooter, Eboue?
Jordan career FG% 49.7
That makes Stockton a better shooter, Eboue?
That alone? No. But Stockton's significant edge in 3 point percentage along with FG% and the fact that Jordan had many more dunks to boost his FG% does.
Honestly. This is a joke, right? Are you clearly arguing that the guy with WORSE FG%, WORSE 3 PT% and WORSE FT% is clearly a better shooter?
I see that it doesn't take into factoring that many of Jordan's and Kobe's shots were created by themselves, via turn-around jumpers, fades, pullups, slashing moves, the types that will both increase a player's scoring output chances and the odds of missing shots, a reason why they're sometimes called gunners. Stockton was often open when shooting, and possibly the king of layups by a PG. He had a pass first, pass second, shoot third mentality. Nash was great at penetrating and getting near the basket to hit shots and was a bonafide three-point shooter (and terrible defensively), a better long-range shooter than Kobe or Jordan definitely, and Kobe is superior to Jordan at long-range shooting (something I've heard plenty of NBA analysts state).
If a game were on the line I'd much rather have Jordan or Kobe taking the shot over Stockton or Nash.
If a game were on the line I'd much rather have Jordan or Kobe taking the shot over Stockton or Nash.
Jordan is worse than Stockton at all three... Is Jordan not the better shooter than Stockton?
Kobe is a 34% shooter from three. Jordan is a 33% shooter from three. That's the great thing about stats. They cut past the bullshit that Skip Bayless or Kenny Smith or your average basketball fan thinks and they tell us what actually happened.
The fact that Kobe and Jordan were taking all of these turn around jumpers and fadeaways is not a point in their favor. It just shows that they took a lot of inefficient shots. There is lots of info coming out recently about better shot selection. Here is a quick summary. http://www.krossover.com/blog/2012/10/death-of-the-mid-range-jumper-statistically-speaking/
Even if I concede your point that Nash had different type of shots than Bryant and can't be compared, Bryant CAN be compared to other athletic players who dominated the ball.
Kevin Durant - 48/37/89
Steph Curry - 47/45/90
Reggie Miller - 47/40/89
Ray Allen - 45/40/89
Kobe Bryant - 45/34/84
That's just a few guys from recent times. Kobe Bryant is the outlier here and it isn't because he is the best shooter of all time. It's because he is not even in the top tier during guys who played at the same time as he did.
Actually, Jordan is a slightly better free throw shooter. But yes, I would say he is a worse shooter than Stockton.
MrMarcello if we are talking about pure shooting Kobe is not near Nash who is one of the best shooters ever. Including turn around jumpers, fadeaways etc. is a different conversation. Stockton is also yes a better pure shooter than Jordan. Looking at fg% is not only looking at 'shooting' that also factors in lay up's, dunks etc. hence why Michaels is so high he went to the rim consistently and finished these are higher quality looks for his first 11 years as he got older he built up his midrange game and for the last 3 years of the three peat his fg% went down in comparison to what he was doing earlier.
Lebron is not a better shooter than Kobe despite the superior fg% he just gets to the rim more and so scores easier baskets which keeps his fg% up so high it drops in the playoffs and even more so in the nba finals where the offence is slower and more in the half court set. Same with Wade a higher fg& than Kobe who is predominantly a jump shooter. Though Wade is poor from 3.
Lebron is not a better shooter than Kobe despite the superior fg% he just gets to the rim more and so scores easier baskets which keeps his fg% up so high it drops in the playoffs and even more so in the nba finals where the offence is slower and more in the half court set. Same with Wade a higher fg& than Kobe who is predominantly a jump shooter. Though Wade is poor from 3.
As a week-long basketball fan, he receives the honour of being my favourite player. His slothiness tipped the scales in his favour.
Sloths have razor sharp claws that they use to slit the throats of their enemies while they sleep. Has Tony Parker ever done that?
That's pretty unfair to Jordan, he certainly did not take a lot of inefficent shots in his career overall. Between 84-93 his shot selection was excellent and he was very efficient with his scoring and he had the most dominating mid-range game the sport has ever seen. I'm always blown away when I watch Jordan footage from his rookie season and how complete his game was and how quickly he mastered every aspect of the game almost to perfection(except 3-point shooting).
I also dislike the myth many people believe that Jordan developed his fade-away during the 2nd 3-peat. He always knew how to hit fade-away shots, it's just that earlier in his career before his 1st retirement he rarely had to take them because of his insane speed and athleticism combined with his complete mastery of the game. When he gradually lost that speed and athleticism he had to resort to tougher shots during that 2nd 3-peat. I'd go as far to say that Jordan was a far better and more efficient player in the 80s than he was 96-98, especially when it comes to defence, just so happens that Bulls team 96-98 was stacked!
Don't start Kobe has made his bed he has always wanted to be Jordan but he was not quite good enough. Jordan does EVERYTHING better than kobe. There is not an area of the game on offence or defence in which he is better. Kobe may shade it as a jump shooter but his poor shot selection negates that to the point Mj's 3 point fg% is almost equal to his while having a far better fg%. Kobe's 81 was against a a league worst Raptors d efence like dropping 81 on the Bobcats it was impressive but put it into context. The 62 against Dallas> 81 Raptors.
Let's say Kobe is the best shooter in history (he isn't in the conversation) then his poor fg% and 3pt% are testament to him not playing smart enough. In 2004 the league changed the rules to favour perimeter players more and these guys still couldn't put up a higher ppg than Mike. In all honesty Lebron is already a better player than Kobe. He is a bigger presence, on both ends he plays smarter and he is a better teammate he scores more easily and more efficently, he is a better passer also. He is not as skilled as Kobe and he may not age as well but Lebron's peak>>> Kobe's peak. Lebron's mentality is not like Kobe's but that has always been to his detriment Lebron is a better player in Late game situations statistically he picks his shots wiser than Kobe and contributes to his team winning more, he will make the right play Kobe only has eyes on getting his own shot off no matter how difficult.
The 2010 Fianl's MVP belongs to Pau Gasol. He was the reason they won. In the 3 peat you could have put a few players in at that time for Kobe and the Laker's still win the same way NOBODY is replacing that Shaq those where the most dominant final performances' ever. I agree Michael was lucky his popularity was before the internet because as much as we knew he had his privacy we know EVERYTHING now. He was not a saint we know this but people who are great/respected are usually forgiven for their failing. Who still thinks about Giggs' affairs etc etc. My only gripe with Kobe is as good as he is/was he could have been better he became obsessed with wanting to be Michael and he ended up being a poor team mate over his career because of that. He is a legend 7-10 on the all time top 10 list for me only Duncan and Shaq were better in his era. Kobe may be the best consistently difficult shot maker in NBA history and that is because he takes shots nobody else in there right mind would at times.
p.s Alvin Gentry and Lionel Hollins same person????
Thanks for clearing that up.
Being a great shooter is not just about shooting, shot selection is also part of it, it's why Kobe can never be seriously discussed when it comes to great shooters. The fact that his shooting percentage is so far when he can get points in the paint and is a major outlet when it comes to finishing off fast breaks tells you just how bad his shot selection is.
That Rivers/Garnett trade to the Clippers is looking pretty dead in the water.
- Status