Moyes So Far!

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Tomalonge said:
I get what you're both saying, honestly. I have taken it on board, and you'll just have to trust me when I say that I'm afraid my view differs..

I'm just not 100% sure he'll fail like you are, that's it really, the majority of my argument is that we don't know how good he may be in two-three years, apart from the message it sends out to other top, top managers that we have no patience as a club. I'd like to think we're different from the rest in that aspect. That's the main thing for me, not how David Moyes feels as a person.

If there are players refusing to play for him, I'd want them out too. I'm not picking one camp, I just want the best for my club!
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Why? That is the big problem, this holier-than-thou attitude, this mythical United Way

Reality check - it does not exist. SAF was an aberration and he came with winning pedigree. He was a top manager before United. Moyes is not, and never was

We do not have a god given right to success, and so we have no right to fiddle away while brick by brick all the good work done by the predecessor is removed.

We are not a charity where interns learn their trade. We are a results oriented club in a results oriented sport

In fact no other club in world football would have given so much time to someone who has failed this badly this quickly
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
Are we talking about the same head-strong manager? SAF still had Anderson there cause he thought he'd come good. Its not his way, and he'll continue to support DM for a lot longer yet.....
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At the end of the day SAF is an employee who was asked to recommend a manager by his bosses, the owners trusted him with this task and went with his choice, his choice has been a disaster and i have no doubt Ferguson will be feeling at least a bit responsible for that.

There are also rumours SAF doesn't appreciate the continuing diatribe from Moyes that the squad he left was weak/old nor the suggestion that he would have struggled himself this season.

The silence from Ferguson in recent months has been deafening in my opinion he could have chosen many times to come out and vocally support moyes in the media like he did a few times before Xmas, and yet not a word why the sudden silence.

What he did or didn't with anderson is irrelevant in regards to this situation in my opinion, they are not even similar SAF had complete control of the squad he doesn't control the entire club then or now. At this point i just don't see Ferguson sticking his neck out to save Moyes if the board want him out.
 
entropy said:
This had me clinging onto Moyes and wanting to give him another season. We were willing to stick it out with Moyes but to sack him now just like city or chelsea makes everything the owners or fergie or gary neville or Woodward said in the past year utterly pointless.
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This is absolutely nothing like Chelsea or City. Jesus. Ancelotti got sacked for finishing second a year after the domestic double. Mancini got sacked after finishing second a year after winning the league and being universally adored by the fan base. Our season has been systematically destroyed by a man that is not talented enough to be in such a position, hence we've struggled, hence our football is bile-worthy, and hence the Glazers will end this mad, self-indulgent experiment.

This is a correct sacking, and in a game whereby managers are sacked far too readily, in this case it is actually fair game. Had we finished fourth then he'd still be in a job. He's seventh for Christ sake. First to seventh, and you're sticking it to Neville, Ferguson and Woodward? Their only real crime is their understandable, but slightly delusional, romance with the club and the supposed 'United way'.

We still want stability. We still want to give a manager time to succeed, but this was just beyond the pale. We hired the wrong man, there's no point in sticking it out for the sake of morality.
 
Ixion said:
But if a new manager took Chelsea, City, Barca, Real, Bayern, PSG etc. down to 7th none of us would be surprised at their sacking, this isn't Di Matteo winning the Champions League and then getting sacked. This is failing by all reasonable standards that every other club out there is wondering why he hasn't been sacked sooner. Sticking with him proves nothing, its to the detriment of the club.
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But we aren't like city or Chelsea or RM. We choose to offer Moyes 6 years, which other club would standby similar philosophy? None of the top clubs can be arsed withgiving their manager time to build his own squad, let alone choose someone like Moyes. If we are going by this philosophy it makes no sense to sack Moyes now.
 
Tomalonge said:
I get what you're both saying, honestly. I have taken it on board, and you'll just have to trust me when I say that I'm afraid my view differs..

I'm just not 100% sure he'll fail like you are, that's it really, the majority of my argument is that we don't know how good he may be in two-three years, apart from the message it sends out to other top, top managers that we have no patience as a club. I'd like to think we're different from the rest in that aspect. That's the main thing for me, not how David Moyes feels as a person.

If there are players refusing to play for him, I'd want them out too. I'm not picking one camp, I just want the best for my club!
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We had more patience than any other top club would have had. In fact, I think that even not top clubs would have sacked Davey for the form of 2014 (10 looses on 22 matches).

Also, other top top managers shouldn't be allowable when you compare Moyes because Moyes isn't a top manager, let alone top top manager. He is an average manager who won the lottary but then spend those money without a plan so now has to again work like before.
 
digitalnirvana said:
Why? That is the big problem, this holier-than-thou attitude
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I haven't said my opinion is more valid or better than anyone's. That's in your own head mate, I suggest actually checking this shit as nobody has said they're better for supporting someone who doesn't.

It's one of the many myths about Moyes supporters, and it's completely untrue and infact quite insulting. Nobody is trying to prove who is better, were all here just saying what they think.
 
entropy said:
But we aren't like city or Chelsea or RM. We choose to offer Moyes 6 years, which other club would standby similar philosophy? None of the top clubs can be arsed withgiving their manager time to build his own squad, let alone choose someone like Moyes. If we are going by this philosophy it makes no sense to sack Moyes now.
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Manchester United is a business. Exactly like City, Chelsea and Real Madrid.
 
Martinez has more than shown he has what it takes to do a good job in one season. Moyes hasn't come close.
 
Tomalonge said:
I haven't said my opinion is more valid or better than anyone's. That's in your own head mate, I suggest actually checking this shit as nobody has said they're better for supporting someone who doesn't.

It's one of the many myths about Moyes supporters, and it's completely untrue and infact quite insulting. Nobody is trying to prove who is better, were all here just saying what they think.
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I meant this notion that United are a better club than everyone else because you said, and I quote "the message it sends out to other top, top managers that we have no patience as a club. I'd like to think we're different from the rest in that aspect. That's the main thing for me, not how David Moyes feels as a person."

Your opinion is fine, using the argument that somehow we are better than the rest in our ethos is frankly unmerited and derogatory to others
 
Tomalonge said:
I haven't said my opinion is more valid or better than anyone's. That's in your own head mate, I suggest actually checking this shit as nobody has said they're better for supporting someone who doesn't.

It's one of the many myths about Moyes supporters, and it's completely untrue and infact quite insulting. Nobody is trying to prove who is better, were all here just saying what they think.
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As usual, Abraham Lincoln provides wise words for healing between two embittered camps. Here is the last paragraph of his second inaugural address.

"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
 
entropy said:
A part of you must have died while typing this sentence.
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Not really. It's just the truth. Manchester United - note how I'm not including the "Football Club" - is the biggest commercial player in all of global sport. Sad state of the game, but it's just the way football is.
 
Tomalonge said:
SAF got stick for three seasons before the winning started. That's my fear, we might have passed on the opportunity of a good manager because the results weren't instant. If we get a higher class of manager next time I hope we show more patience. Good things normally do come to those who wait.

Saying that though, if it's not true I won't pretend I'm not a bit relieved. If he hasn't done the job this time next year then fair enough, but the last thing I'd want the club to do is put off a top, top manager because of the lack of patience we've shown with just a good one. Every manager we get deserves a fair crack.
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The thing is, Fergie came to us when we were not anywhere near winning the League. He had to contend with a drinking culture and totally rejuvenated the structure of the club... Moyes had all of those things sorted. The foundations were laid in place. He even laid the albatross that is Rooney on a plate for him to sell, and bring in proper funds to strengthen the one area of the team we were in desperate need of reinforcements for. He had no valid reason to go about things the way he did.
 
KeninDC said:
As usual, Abraham Lincoln provides wise words for healing between two embittered camps. Here is the last paragraph of his second inaugural address.

"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
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You know what?! I'm done?

If you only want people who hate Moyes in the united forum, well fecking done. You deserve your one sided view,
 
Tomalonge said:
You say you want debate but you don't.
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Once Moyes is gone, we're essentially going to blot him from our history books. I'm looking forward to having a united fanbase again that doesn't have to squabble over this kind of stuff, where we can all whole-heartedly support the new guy. I respect those that stood to the end with Moyes even though I disagreed fundamentally with their analysis, and hope there's not going to be any ill-feelings into next season.

We can then focus on moaning about Ashley Young.
 
Tomalonge said:
You know what?! I'm done?

If you only want people who hate Moyes in the united forum, well fecking done. You deserve your one sided view,
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I think you missed the point. After the Civil War Lincoln pleaded that the North and South reconcile as Americans without malice.

So-you're reaction is odd. I disagreed with you on Moyes-but now that he's likely gone it's time for us to move forward as United fans.

Maybe it got lost in translation.
 
Ubik said:
Once Moyes is gone, we're essentially going to blot him from our history books. I'm looking forward to having a united fanbase again that doesn't have to squabble over this kind of stuff, where we can all whole-heartedly support the new guy. I respect those that stood to the end with Moyes even though I disagreed fundamentally with their analysis, and hope there's not going to be any ill-feelings into next season.

We can then focus on moaning about Ashley Young.
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It's happened, deal with it. If you deny it you'll be tore into rightly.
KeninDC said:
I think you missed the point. After the Civil War Lincoln pleaded that the North and South reconcile as Americans without malice.

So-you're reaction is odd. I disagreed with you on Moyes-but now that he's likely gone it's time for us to move forward as United fans.

Maybe it got lost in translation.
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What the feck does Moyes have to do with American politics? The comparisons are beyond stupid.
 
Tomalonge said:
It's happened, deal with it. If you deny it you'll be tore into rightly.

What the feck does Moyes have to do with American politics? The comparisons are beyond stupid.
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He's saying be nice to people with whom you have disagreed with. So-that's what I'm doing.
 
Tomalonge said:
It's happened, deal with it. If you deny it you'll be tore into rightly.

What the feck does Moyes have to do with American politics? The comparisons are beyond stupid.
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Well that was a non-sequitur.
 
gormless said:
It was a way to keep tabs on how he was doing. We had a new manager for the first time in 25 years, you can't blame people for wanting to keep abreast of it all. Obviously when he turned out to be not very good at his job it went the way it did for a reason.
And if its the most embarrassing and pathetic thread you've read on here, it's probably because it coincides with the most embarrassing and pathetic period in our clubs history since Redcafe came into existence.
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Keep tabs? 15 days after he joined?

I have no problem in people discussing a managers performance but some of the personal comments in here are downright pathetic.

A mediocre season after two and a half seasons of constant success is embarrassing and pathetic now? Where does this entitlement come from?
 
Tomalonge said:
I get what you're both saying, honestly. I have taken it on board, and you'll just have to trust me when I say that I'm afraid my view differs..

I'm just not 100% sure he'll fail like you are, that's it really, the majority of my argument is that we don't know how good he may be in two-three years, apart from the message it sends out to other top, top managers that we have no patience as a club. I'd like to think we're different from the rest in that aspect. That's the main thing for me, not how David Moyes feels as a person.

If there are players refusing to play for him, I'd want them out too. I'm not picking one camp, I just want the best for my club!
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Top, top managers seemingly have no problem with going to Real Madrid or Bayern München or Chelsea - all these clubs would have sacked Moyes long ago and indeed sacked managers with far better CVs and results.
 
Siorac said:
Top, top managers seemingly have no problem with going to Real Madrid or Bayern München or Chelsea - all these clubs would have sacked Moyes long ago and indeed sacked managers with far better CVs and results.
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Its funny when you think Barca are right now 3rd in the league and their manager looks to leave after universal damnation from the media. Moyes has us in 7th and only until yesterday did we start to hear murmurings that he should start to take more responsibility.
 
OneUnited24 said:
Its funny when you think Barca are right now 3rd in the league and their manager looks to leave after universal damnation from the media. Moyes has us in 7th and only until yesterday did we start to hear murmurings that he should start to take more responsibility.
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And if Moyes had us in 3rd place there would be no discontent, he'd have full backing and be more secure in his job than anyone. He really wasn't under much pressure or expectation.
 
Ixion said:
And if Moyes had us in 3rd place there would be no discontent, he'd have full backing and be more secure in his job than anyone. He really wasn't under much pressure or expectation.
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Honestly i would have taken 3rd at the start of the season and he didnt even manage to do that!

I just hate how our season has been under him;
"I just hope we can challenge and start rebuilding from there"
"A good cup run would be nice"
"Top 4 is a must"
"I guess missing out on Europe could be a good thing"

In the space of 9 months hes managed to lower expectations so much I wasn't even shocked when it started to sink in we weren't going to be in the UCL next season.
 
Shinjisan said:
Keep tabs? 15 days after he joined?

I have no problem in people discussing a managers performance but some of the personal comments in here are downright pathetic.

A mediocre season after two and a half seasons of constant success is embarrassing and pathetic now? Where does this entitlement come from?
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Its been a pretty pathetic season. We went from 1st to 7th. I imagine Moyes himself is pretty embarrassed at how badly its gone. I'd be embarrassed if I'd performed as poorly at my job. And yeah, it was used to keep tabs on how he was doing. It wasn't the Moyes Out extravaganza it became
 
gormless said:
Its been a pretty pathetic season. We went from 1st to 7th. I imagine Moyes himself is pretty embarrassed at how badly its gone. I'd be embarrassed if I'd performed as poorly at my job. And yeah, it was used to keep tabs on how he was doing. It wasn't the Moyes Out extravaganza it became
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It has been a bad season, which wasn't unthinkable once Sir Alex retired. May be a little worse than anyone expected. Moyes has failed but constantly abusing him is incredibly childish.

Yeah right, try working under the same scrutiny. Comparing it to "your job" is juvenile.

Some people's mind were already made up. It was always a Moyes our extravaganza. The evidence again, this thread was started on July 15th and was titled, "Moyes so far".
 
@Shinjisan convenient to ignore this bit from the OP then?

For new people reading this thread
This is not supposed to be a critical assessment or a reason to beat Moyes with a stick, it's supposed to be a general view of how things are going week to week with this being an ongoing thread, not a point in time thread.

By all means debate what is positive and what is not, for example new coaches could be a good or bad thing depending on how you view it.
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Shinjisan said:
It has been a bad season, which wasn't unthinkable once Sir Alex retired. May be a little worse than anyone expected. Moyes has failed but constantly abusing him is incredibly childish.

Yeah right, try working under the same scrutiny. Comparing it to "your job" is juvenile.

Some people's mind were already made up. It was always a Moyes our extravaganza. The evidence again, this thread was started on July 15th and was titled, "Moyes so far".
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For new people reading this thread
This is not supposed to be a critical assessment or a reason to beat Moyes with a stick, it's supposed to be a general view of how things are going week to week with this being an ongoing thread, not a point in time thread.

By all means debate what is positive and what is not, for example new coaches could be a good or bad thing depending on how you view it.
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The original OP is quoted above. But anyway, we're flogging a dead horse here, its a completely pointless argument on both our sides
 
Rob Bowman said:
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry...

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I am actually now convinced that he is just a shit robot.

if (United loses with only a goal difference)
---I thought we played well
else
---We didn't play well, we need to become harder to beat
 
Mixed emotions if true.
stevoc said:
At the end of the day SAF is an employee who was asked to recommend a manager by his bosses, the owners trusted him with this task and went with his choice, his choice has been a disaster and i have no doubt Ferguson will be feeling at least a bit responsible for that.

There are also rumours SAF doesn't appreciate the continuing diatribe from Moyes that the squad he left was weak/old nor the suggestion that he would have struggled himself this season.

The silence from Ferguson in recent months has been deafening in my opinion he could have chosen many times to come out and vocally support moyes in the media like he did a few times before Xmas, and yet not a word why the sudden silence.

What he did or didn't with anderson is irrelevant in regards to this situation in my opinion, they are not even similar SAF had complete control of the squad he doesn't control the entire club then or now. At this point i just don't see Ferguson sticking his neck out to save Moyes if the board want him out.
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I guess time will tell. I think either way and to some or lesser degree, he will have a say to whether he stays or goes.
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
Mixed emotions if true.

I guess time will tell. I think either way and to some or lesser degree, he will have a say to whether he stays or goes.
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I think the points about what Moyes said are accurate. He had a vocal supporter in Fergie, but his comments about being left with a weak squad probably started to change Fergie's mind and may have come across as quite disrespectful.
 
I don't think there is anyway that sacking moyes will make the club look inpatient or cause concern for other managers about taking over. He has done such a terrible job that no one will be suprised to see him leave and it will be viewed as the correct decision, and he has been given more time than he would have got at any other top club, it is now the perfect job for a new manager. You will now be compared to moyes not SAF and the new manager can blame things on moyes whether it is justified for not. There is money to spend and an injection of belief and confidence into the squad will improve the performance of players already there.

The only thing that will harm the club is if this situation is not resolved tomorrow, it seems unthinkable he will not be sacked so it needs to be done tomorrow, if this drags on it will not reflect well on the club.
 
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