Moyes So Far!

[Mauzindark]

One thing that's always irked me about Mopes even in his time at Everton is that he seems to have a very limited knowledge of football tactics and philosophies. You can find Pep raving about Van Gaal and Cruyff, Klopp with Sacchi - these guys seem to have a deeper understanding of the game - they have blueprints they want to follow. It's eargasm when you hear people like Pep, Jose, Klopp or Wenger in post match pressers. They can pin point exactly where their tactics went wrong, where the other team succeeded and how they'd like to improve it. Even Brenton Rutgers is very animated in his ethos of "death by football" with key phrases like "pressing" or "aggression". Hearing that you instantly know what the manager wants from his team and how he'll set out to play. With David he never mentions the technical aspects of the game it's always the same shite recycled excuses "luck", "try to improve", "put it right". But how Mopes ? How exactly will you put it right ? Alteast let people know what you plan to do like most good managers do. You've been saying the same things since July and we're yet to see any form of improvement.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I also said making us champions in Moyes first season might have been difficult but challenging for honours shouldn't have. We are pretty much out of it all in February. The regression is so steep it's scary and I don't believe any of those managers would have seen this team fall as far as David Moyes has even following Fergie.
I started a thread about the challenges facing Moyes and Pep when they first got appointed. I won't even try to dig it up because it's quite embarrassing now given how things have gone. Pep taking on treble winners, where even if he won one trophy it'd pale in comparison to Heynckes achievements. A lot was being made of Barcelona's decline last season yet they're still going strong in three competitions this season despite losing two coaches steeped in their philosophy.

Both of those clubs had a squad of players markedly superior to our own. Neither of them had to cope with the loss of a manager as influential and long-standing as Fergie. There's no comparison with the task Moyes faced.

Moyes was at Everton for 11 years and he'd brought pretty much all of those players there, it was his team, playing his way but yet it didn't take Martinez ages to get them to adapt to his way of playing and they haven't seen any decline in results at all.

Everton's squad was strengthened significantly in the summer and they're actually not all that far off where they were under Moyes last season. Martinez definitely deserves credit for handling the transition from a long-standing manager much better than Moyes has. Although, again, you're underestimating just how big the shoes are that Fergie left to fill.

And yes, I know your response will be about how small the shoes are that Moyes left to fill!

 

[JaffyJoe]

Ferguson has punched way about his weight with this squad. If you look at it purely in monetary terms, united have never been in the same league as City or Chelsea in terms of spending power for some time. Then you have Monaco, PSG, Barca, Madrid and Bayern, even a couple of Russian clubs could throw their weight around a bit (where has Eto been?).

The point is that United have actually over performed because of Fergies Genius. People keep talking about this championship winning team, but when was the last time we had a team on paper that we all thought (that's a better 11 then Chelsea or City)? In fact, when was the last time United consistently beat a top team in Europe or the league ?

Fergusons success was built around stability (everybody knows their role), his man management and his ability to squeeze every bit of quality out of the team. Moyes has come into a squad of players who on paper aren't above top 3 in the league. Crippled or declining senior players who gave it one last hurrah last season after the City league win debacle that could of served to give them no more motivation then they ever had in their lives.

Moyes hasn't just had to try and re-motivate players (like RVP who couldn't have the same hunger as he had last ) to try and find that hunger, but hes had to try and be successful doing things his way with SAF team that was never on paper on the level they were achieving.

Even in SAF time How many times have people complained about - Rio, inuries to defenders, Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, our entire CM, Young, Valencia, wellbeck ?

Im not saying that Ferguson left Moyes with a shit team, but there were problems with that squad long before SAF left. the difference was the stability of having SAF running things. He knew everything inside out , what he could get out of players and who would play for him. Some idiots suggested that Moyes should of known who to get rid of when he came to united, but herin lies the major part of their argument> fans watch a match and think its as simple as - "Sure young is shit, therefore moyes should of known this before he joined" when in fact it is nowhere near as simple as that.

Good post.

Even though Moyes was given a difficult job, I feel like he hasn't risen to the occasion at all. Mourinho would have done a better job, with the stature of United and the players he could bring in Rodgers would have done a better job, Martinez too. Moyes has basically come in looked around and said, 'these lot aren't good enough'. He is not a good man manager or a good tactician.

What are his redeeming qualities. Can he become a better man manager and tactician? I have faith, I don't think he has the right people around him. Honestly he should have kept Rene and or Mike around, but I can see why he didn't. He wants to do things his way, with no reminder of the previous regime in place.

He is seemingly out of his depth.

My last hope is that he is just trying to get through this season with these players and once he brings in more quality he will expand his football style and become more daring. But the players he has here are good enough to play some semblance of exciting, attacking football. We have talented footballers at this club.

I feel the weakness of this team is now being exaggerated.

He has done nothing well since he has gotten here.

 

[Pexbo]

That's fine and all, but he seemed to go out of his way to criticise United last season, including his old manager's tactics just to prove his impartiality as a pundit. Yet with Moyes and his brother it's all blind bias.

It's understandable though isn't it? My brothers a chef too, head chef at a top Dublin restaurant, and if I moved out of the kitchen in to journalism and it was my position to comment on why his restaurant had suddenly started to lose a load of money I can't say I would hang his kitchen team out to dry and criticise the work they are doing because I know how hard he works and I just wouldn't want to add to pressure he is already under and I have my niece to think of too.

It's the same for the Neville's. They're a tight family, could you imagine if Gary started the media pressure on United and Phil lost his job because of it? It'd cause real problems for the family.


We know he's compromised so just ignore him.

 

[JaffyJoe]

There is honestly nothing that Moyes is doing that gives me hope. Even the slightest crumb of comfort to cling to. Nothing about him appeals to me. Like has been said a million times, if we could see a visible style of passing football that he was trying to improve us with we could accept these results a little bit better. We have actually been getting worse and worse as the season has gone on.

In replying to Drummer i've been left with the same feeling. He has done nothing. He lacks conviction in interviews, on the bench, the playing style lacks direction, understanding or courage. The players seem disinterested and unmotivated.

It's a mess. He will get one more season but he doesn't have what it takes to be a world class manager imo. We will be behind Chelsea,City and maybe even Arsenal in this country when it comes to attracting top talent.

 

[Getsme]

underestimating just how big the shoes are that Fergie left to fill

I don't believe anybody is to be fair.
Most if not all of the fans would have been happy with a top 4 finish and a good cup run (FA) That's not being unrealistic, that should have been the minimum surely. As long as we stayed in the UCL places, started to play some decent football with a clear direction on where he planned to bring the club then I'm 100% certain the entire fan base would have been behind him. Even if we went a few years without challenging for the title
Ok not everybody but a good 95% of us

 

[Revan]

You know whats baffling ? The recurring theme on the Caf where people who want Moyes out completely dismiss or insult anybody who has a conflicting view to this topic as if they know something that everybody else doesnt. .

Then people like you should at-least start giving arguments why Moyes will succedd here rather than the nonsense of anybody needs time.

Gary Neville is a superb commentator on the game and has a fantastic insight into how a club should be run, just because he disagrees with the Moyes out brigade does not automatically make him a bad pundit.

No, he isn't. He is at the moment by far the worst pundit right there. He has completely ignored the possibility that Moyes might be the reason why we are struggling and is acting like everybody bar Moyes is at fault for what is happening. He is criticiznig the players more than 'the awful squad' brigade here. He somehow has the idea that players future is at risk while it is very likely that for many players the best thing it can happen right now is to be given the freedom of being far away from Moyes. I think that players like Kagawa, Chicharito, Nani etc (and Vidic who already did that) will ask for transfers regardless if United want to keep them or not. Add Van Persie in the mix too

I have an alternative theory, Perhaps Neville just knows more then the fork wielding barstool managers calling for Moyes head ?

And I have an alternate one. Moyes spell has been the worst spell in a top club at-least in the last 15 years and he is completely out of depth. We'll see which theory will be proven right.[/quote]

 

[LR7]

Both of those clubs had a squad of players markedly superior to our own. Neither of them had to cope with the loss of a manager as influential and long-standing as Fergie. There's no comparison with the task Moyes faced.



Everton's squad was strengthened significantly in the summer and they're actually not all that far off where they were under Moyes last season. Martinez definitely deserves credit for handling the transition from a long-standing manager much better than Moyes has. Although, again, you're underestimating just how big the shoes are that Fergie left to fill.

And yes, I know your response will be about how small the shoes are that Moyes left to fill!

Moyes shoes weren't small though. The Everton players like Distin have spoken about how it wasn't easy for them to adapt to playing the ball out at first and being more possession based but that they have gotten more confident with it as time has gone on. Martinez has changed the mentality there big time. They now go to big grounds and play like they believe they can compete playing football, not just making it difficult for the team they're facing. They feel like they're good enough rather than being the plucky little underdog.

I'm not even underestimating the task of following Fergie I'm simplify questioning the credentials and charisma of the man tasked with doing it.

Guardiola could have just walked into Bayern Munich and decided to carry on playing how they played under Heynckes, but he's implemented his style and system as well and isn't afraid to mix it up or change things. They can do a bit of tiki-taka, passing and moving with high pressure, but they're still quite direct. He dared to try to improve a team that was already the best.

And I don't believe that the team that Fergie left was nearly as poor as people try to make out. It needed strengthening in obvious places and had we done that the team would have a completely different complexion than it has now. At the end of last season we were all waxing lyrical about what a good blend of youth and experience Fergie had left Moyes with, even the journalists agreed, fast forward a few months and the narrative is that Fergie stitched Moyes up and deliberately jumped ship because he could see this coming. The change in narrative to justify Moyes failings is a joke.

 

[Drummer]

Then people like you should at-least start giving arguments why Moyes will succedd here rather than the nonsense of anybody needs time.



No, he isn't. He is at the moment by far the worst pundit right there. He has completely ignored the possibility that Moyes might be the reason why we are struggling and is acting like everybody bar Moyes is at fault for what is happening. He is criticiznig the players more than 'the awful squad' brigade here. He somehow has the idea that players future is at risk while it is very likely that for many players the best thing it can happen right now is to be given the freedom of being far away from Moyes. I think that players like Kagawa, Chicharito, Nani etc (and Vidic who already did that) will ask for transfers regardless if United want to keep them or not. Add Van Persie in the mix too



And I have an alternate one. Moyes spell has been the worst spell in a top club at-least in the last 15 years and he is completely out of depth. We'll see which theory will be proven right.

[/quote]

Actually I have given plenty of arguments why Moyes should be given the summer to put things right, but frankly people have already made up their minds and completely ignore it and just post the same things over and over again about what we have seen thus far . .

What you have is your own personal opinion. Do You think the board or Gary Neville are just stupid, loyal idiots that cannot see things that the Moyes out brigade, in their infinite wisdom and experience bring to this debate?. You think you know what's going to happen, who is going to leave and that things will not improve? You know this how ?

 

[kouroux]

I don't believe anybody is to be fair.
Most if not all of the fans would have been happy with a top 4 finish and a good cup run (FA) That's not being unrealistic, that should have been the minimum surely. As long as we stayed in the UCL places, started to play some decent football with a clear direction on where he planned to bring the club then I'm 100% certain the entire fan base would have been behind him. Even if we went a few years without challenging for the title
Ok not everybody but a good 95% of us

I would have been happy this season, with a 6th finish, no cup runs but with with a better view and idea of the club's football and general tactics. That's how low I set my expectations since January anyway. Not winning trophies and not competing for them is not a serious pb for me if only the football played is better and improving weeks after weeks.

 

[Getsme]

I would have been happy this season, with a 6th finish, no cup runs but with with a better view and idea of the club's football and general tactics. That's how low I set my expectations since January anyway. Not winning trophies and not competing for them is not a serious pb for me if only the football played is better and improving weeks after weeks.

That is low, even your expectations haven't been met.

 

[Amir]

I agree he's now started to sound very bias towards our club. Last year he wasn't, he was actually able to give both sides of the arguments well.

It was about a year, maybe a year and a half ago, when Neville mentioned our midfield on Twitter and said it was fine and didn't need new additions, listing the players we had. You know, the ones we realize just aren't good enough.

I'm afraid there's not actually a whole to take from the likes of Neville these days when it comes to United. Obviously anything on MUTV or the website is pointless to read/watch because it's like bloody North Korean media, but even on other mediums - either those people are heavily biased, feel they need to say certain things out of loyalty, or - as people who grew at within the Fergie reign - just don't know anything better.

A lot of the things which were right about United in the last 20 years, that remained connected to the way football used to be, were thanks to the link given to us by Fergie, his ability and longevity. Once he's retired, we're only fooling ourselves if we think things can be just like they used to. They cannot, we have to move on. People so connected to the United of old, like Neville, probably can't accept/see it.

 

[Sixpence]

In replying to Drummer i've been left with the same feeling. He has done nothing. He lacks conviction in interviews, on the bench, the playing style lacks direction, understanding or courage. The players seem disinterested and unmotivated.

It's a mess. He will get one more season but he doesn't have what it takes to be a world class manager imo. We will be behind Chelsea,City and maybe even Arsenal in this country when it comes to attracting top talent.

I honestly don't see the point in giving him another season, this isn't changing. It just isn't. He isn't up to the scale of the job, it's plainly obvious and it is obvious that the players know that too.

The players aren't suddenly going to start believing in him and his methods over the summer, we are too far down the line for that. And likewise, he isn't suddenly going to develop a personality and a Guardiola-esque football philosophy for next season either. Cut our losses in May and have a really positive season under an experienced, widely respected new man next season while the thing is still retrievable and before we fall an insurmountable way behind the big guns in this league never mind in Europe. Europe is the least of my worries right now, we need to get back to being one of the best teams in the PL first.

 

[Drummer]

I honestly don't see the point in giving him another season, this isn't changing. It just isn't. He isn't up to the scale of the job, it's plainly obvious and it is obvious that the players know that too.

The players aren't suddenly going to start believing in him and his methods over the summer, we are too far down the line for that. And likewise, he isn't suddenly going to develop a personality and a Guardiola-esque football philosophy for next season either. Cut our losses in May and have a really positive season under an experienced, widely respected new man next season while the thing is still retrievable and before we fall an insurmountable way behind the big guns in this league never mind in Europe. Europe is the least of my worries right now, we need to get back to being one of the best teams in the PL first.

Fair enough, what manager can we get ? Bearing in mind Anchelloti and Jose are unavailable and unlikely to leave their clubs. One of the big things thrown at Moyes is that he never won anything, so that rules Klopp out . .

What big manager is realisitically attainable and who has the "big name" status or credentials to instil the confidence back into the team?

 

[MoskvaRed]

I honestly don't see the point in giving him another season, this isn't changing. It just isn't. He isn't up to the scale of the job, it's plainly obvious and it is obvious that the players know that too.

The players aren't suddenly going to start believing in him and his methods over the summer, we are too far down the line for that. And likewise, he isn't suddenly going to develop a personality and a Guardiola-esque football philosophy for next season either. Cut our losses in May and have a really positive season under an experienced, widely respected new man next season while the thing is still retrievable and before we fall an insurmountable way behind the big guns in this league never mind in Europe. Europe is the least of my worries right now, we need to get back to being one of the best teams in the PL first.

I agree, although there aren't many obvious realistic replacement candidates that spring to mind. It makes me wonder whether we consider going with the Director of Football route (subject to the condition that it is someone respected and not a Commolli type charlatan) so that we can rebuild without undue disruption first under a shorter-term "safe pair of hands" and then under a longer-term candidate once one becomes available.

 

[Drummer]

Who realistically is available in the summer (better than 50% chance of joining us) that could do well for us?

I can think of Diego Simeone but who else?

But what has he won ? People keep pointing at Moyes lack of trophies, so why is it ok for Simeone who has never even managed in the EPL?

Its ridiculous, if you want moyes out, you have to have a realistic target. Jose and Anchelotti are not realistic targets. Klopp has won nothing and never managed in the EPL, so Im not sure why people attack Moyes trophy cabinet and in the same breath mention managers with no EPL experience or trophies themselves!

 

[JaffyJoe]

Fair enough, what manager can we get ? Bearing in mind Anchelloti and Jose are unavailable and unlikely to leave their clubs. One of the big things thrown at Moyes is that he never won anything, so that rules Klopp out . .

What big manager is realisitically attainable and who has the "big name" status or credentials to instil the confidence back into the team?

Klopp has won the league in Germany twice and taken Dortmund to the CL final all in the last 4 years.

 

[FineYoungCasual]

Isn't that exactly what he's done with all that "little horse" nonsense?

How is portraying Chelsea as an underdog in the title race not questioning the quality of his squad?

He's being blatantly facetious though. The joke is with the players at the outside world.

By stating it after massive victories (City away), rather than after crushing losses it actually belittles the opposition rather than his own squad - "we've just beaten the best team in the league on their own turf...and we're crap", is a massive insult and psychological blow not just to City but to the entire top flight of the league.

No surprise that City have faltered since that loss and those comments.

Mourinho knows how to make other teams doubt themselves - Moyes can't even rid his own team of doubt...

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

But what has he won ? People keep pointing at Moyes lack of trophies, so why is it ok for Simeone who has never even managed in the EPL?!

I think if there was a Moyesinho.....

 

[JaffyJoe]

It's not a MUST that you have won a trophy if you've never been with a team capable of realistically winning. You can say Martinez won the FA Cup but Wigan got relegated, i'd rather stay in the Premiership and by trophyless than win the FA Cup and relegated. Moyes stability with Everton is impressive but not spectacular.

Honestly there are few managers who can stand out right now. Whoever we get is a step into the unknown. This club has always had British managers too. I doubt we will be able to continue that tradition after Moyes.

 

[Drummer]

Klopp has won the league in Germany twice and taken Dortmund to the CL final all in the last 4 years.

My bad . . I suppose the question is can he transfer that success into the EPL?

 

[JaffyJoe]

I honestly don't see the point in giving him another season, this isn't changing. It just isn't. He isn't up to the scale of the job, it's plainly obvious and it is obvious that the players know that too.

The players aren't suddenly going to start believing in him and his methods over the summer, we are too far down the line for that. And likewise, he isn't suddenly going to develop a personality and a Guardiola-esque football philosophy for next season either. Cut our losses in May and have a really positive season under an experienced, widely respected new man next season while the thing is still retrievable and before we fall an insurmountable way behind the big guns in this league never mind in Europe. Europe is the least of my worries right now, we need to get back to being one of the best teams in the PL first.

Your settled. I'm 90% with you, i'm just holding out a little hope (against all logic and reasoning) that he can turn it around.

 

[JaffyJoe]

My bad . . I suppose the question is can he transfer that success into the EPL?

He comes across as charismatic and he also has a clear philosophy which is great to watch.

He loves the game and has his own clear ideas on how it should be played. If we are looking for a replacement, I imagine him being top of any list we care to draw up.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It's not a MUST that you have won a trophy if you've never been with a team capable of realistically winning. You can say Martinez won the FA Cup but Wigan got relegated, i'd rather stay in the Premiership and by trophyless than win the FA Cup and relegated. Moyes stability with Everton is impressive but not spectacular.

Honestly there are few managers who can stand out right now. Whoever we get is a step into the unknown. This club has always had British managers too. I doubt we will be able to continue that tradition after Moyes.

The last part is a given - our next manager will be foreign. There simply is no convincing British or Irish candidate (even Rodgers, were he a remotely realistic candidate, would for me represent too much of a gamble at this early stage of his career despite his very impressive start at Liverpool).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The fact we've had foreign assistant managers would also imply a foreign manager isn't out of the question. Didn't fergie say he was seriously considering Queroz as his succesor at one point?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

The fact we've had foreign assistant managers would also imply a foreign manager isn't out of the question. Didn't fergie say he was seriously considering Queroz as his succesor at one point?

It is probably safe to assume that our next manager will be foreign. Unless someone like Monk proves to be a quality manager, which is unlikely.

 

[Jaap]

The fact we've had foreign assistant managers would also imply a foreign manager isn't out of the question. Didn't fergie say he was seriously considering Queroz as his succesor at one point?

Eriksson was supposed to be Fergie's successor in 2002, right?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Oh yeah, him too.

Hmmm... None of says much about Fergie's ability at picking a good succesor.

That's another point scored by the "Moyes Out" camp!

 

[Sarni]

My bad . . I suppose the question is can he transfer that success into the EPL?

For what reason might he not be able to do that? Do you think it's actually more difficult to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world with plenty of resources than taking a mid-table Bundesliga side with hardly any money and turning them into a proper European force?

What top class manager failed in England?

 

[Drummer]

He comes across as charismatic and he also has a clear philosophy which is great to watch.

He loves the game and has his own clear ideas on how it should be played. If we are looking for a replacement, I imagine him being top of any list we care to draw up.

That's a fair point and it might help get a couple of Dortmund players to boot . .

 

[Drummer]

For what reason might he not be able to do that? Do you think it's actually more difficult to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world with plenty of resources than taking a mid-table Bundesliga side with hardly any money and turning them into a proper European force?

What top class manager failed in England?

You think managing Manchester United is the same as managing Borussia Dortmund? Same level of expectations, the same kind of culture ? How many top German coaches succeed in England?

I was only asking if people thought it would be a smooth transition from Germany to England...

Winning Trophies isn't the only thing required to recreate success at another club in another country.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Eriksson was supposed to be Fergie's successor in 2002, right?

Yes, that's right. The fact we haven't had a foreign manager is more a reflection of the fact that we have had only one managerial change since English football became more global in perspective. As our dressing room has and will continue to have a high number of foreign players, I can't see why the manager's nationality should make much difference (although I think good English skills are a must - we don't want a Capello with England scenario).

 

[MoskvaRed]

You think managing Manchester United is the same as managing Borussia Dortmund? Same level of expectations, the same kind of culture ? How many top German coaches succeed in England?

I was only asking if people thought it would be a smooth transition from Germany to England...

Winning Trophies isn't the only thing required to recreate success at another club in another country.

Dortmund have huge support and one of the highest average attendances in Europe. They won the CL in the 90s and were runners up last year. They aren't at the level of United but they are a lot closer than Everton.

 

[Empire]

But what has he won ? People keep pointing at Moyes lack of trophies, so why is it ok for Simeone who has never even managed in the EPL?

Its ridiculous, if you want moyes out, you have to have a realistic target. Jose and Anchelotti are not realistic targets. Klopp has won nothing and never managed in the EPL, so Im not sure why people attack Moyes trophy cabinet and in the same breath mention managers with no EPL experience or trophies themselves!

I said realistic, so I made quite clear Klopp, Jose and Ancelotti were not realistic as we have less than 50% chance of landing them.

Klopp took a team 13th on a small budget to win the Bundesliga back to back and in the second season their domestic cup to beating Bayern in the final. That Bayern team went on to become great therefore I think that is a worthy achievement, he also got to the champions league final.

Diego Simeone has on a low budget built a team competitive with Barcelona and Real Madrid. This season on par with them.

Moyes in 11 years built a solid team but they can't have been that good because he never won a single trophy (not even the league cup) nor did he ever reach the champions league group stage with them and never were they consistently serious top four contenders.

Klopp, a young Jose, Guardiola and Simeone (if he wins a trophy this season) are more like a Young Ferguson than David Moyes. A young Ferguson stopped Rangers and Celtic winning the league domestically with his Aberdeen and won the UEFA cup coming back late on from 2-1 down to beat Bayern 3-2 on his way to beating Real Madrid in the final.

Moyes fortunately got a chance and this I am fine with however evidently he has failed to either solve problems handed to him or he has made things worse. E.g. United are even more static now.



The above video shows the consequences of Moyes' coaching.

 

[Moriarty]

Eriksson was supposed to be Fergie's successor in 2002, right?

I think he was the reason Fergie did an about turn on his retirement.

 

[RedRover]

Successful is a relative term.



Yea, but Fergie kept winning even without free flowing football, and he wasn't afraid to mix it up a bit when needed.

Mourinho might be a negative manager, but how has Moyes been any different this season? We've virtually set out to win every game 1-0. Even at Old Trafford, the lineups and tactics are defensive.

So if we had Mourinho, we'd be tight defensively, not be too adventurous and win lots of games 1-0.

Under Moyes, we leak goals, play not too adventurously and lose games 0-1.

I know which one I'd prefer.

Success is relative, but a lot of, if not most of the better managers learn with lower clubs before stepping up a level. It doesnt work for all of them of course.

The point I was making is that a lot of fans are criticisng his style of play and the "ugliness" of the football. Whilst it isnt as attractive as we would like, nor is it effective at the moment, but it isn't a million miles away from what we did last year with this squad either.

He needs results, urgently -and results hide faults. A number of games recently are games we should have won and the performance of the players was as much to blame for the result as the tactics in which they were asked to operate. Whichever way you are set up, in midweek good players played with fear - gave the ball away, miscontrolled passes, were caught out of position.

Perhpas the manager doesn't instill confidence, given the pressure he is under it wouldnt be a surprise - but players should be able to go out there and do a job if they want to play for a top side, the Rooney's and RVP's especially and take some responsibility for not being able to do the basics right.

As I've said Mourinho was my choice - he could be one of the best managers ever to manage in the game. But to compare him with his ability and experience to a manager new into the job, under huge pressure in following the "greatest manager ever" and with a project to manage is, in my opinion, unfair. They gave him a long contract for a reason - presumably becuase they thought it was better in the long term.

 

[Sarni]

You think managing Manchester United is the same as managing Borussia Dortmund? Same level of expectations, the same kind of culture ? How many top German coaches succeed in England?

I was only asking if people thought it would be a smooth transition from Germany to England...

Winning Trophies isn't the only thing required to recreate success at another club in another country.

Of course it's a different level of expectation but Dortmund aren't some random small European side. They are former European Cup winners and have the highest attendances in Europe. They are a big club.

I know, Klopp has all the tools IMO. He's second to none in terms of getting the best out of players, of that I have no doubt.

 

[Amir]

Both of those clubs had a squad of players markedly superior to our own. Neither of them had to cope with the loss of a manager as influential and long-standing as Fergie. There's no comparison with the task Moyes faced.!

That's part of my problem with the appointment. It was a huge job in the first place. Giving it to someone who never managed at this level just made the hole all that much bigger.

Having said that, it's hardly as if we've got a squad of players who never worked under different managers. Whether it's in previous clubs, clubs they went to on loan or international teams. I actually thought a new manager would have a positive impact on some of them. New views, new ideas, new challenges. Maybe Moyes will get Valencia back on track, get more out of Young, get Cleverley going again and improving, But almost all our players either haven't improved or regressed.

The very few positives we can take from this season, even if we're looking at it one player at a time - and we've got about 25 - is staggering.

 

[RedRover]

Ferguson has punched way about his weight with this squad. If you look at it purely in monetary terms, united have never been in the same league as City or Chelsea in terms of spending power for some time. Then you have Monaco, PSG, Barca, Madrid and Bayern, even a couple of Russian clubs could throw their weight around a bit (where has Eto been?).

The point is that United have actually over performed because of Fergies Genius. People keep talking about this championship winning team, but when was the last time we had a team on paper that we all thought (that's a better 11 then Chelsea or City)? In fact, when was the last time United consistently beat a top team in Europe or the league ?

Fergusons success was built around stability (everybody knows their role), his man management and his ability to squeeze every bit of quality out of the team. Moyes has come into a squad of players who on paper aren't above top 3 in the league. Crippled or declining senior players who gave it one last hurrah last season after the City league win debacle that could of served to give them no more motivation then they ever had in their lives.

Moyes hasn't just had to try and re-motivate players (like RVP who couldn't have the same hunger as he had last ) to try and find that hunger, but hes had to try and be successful doing things his way with SAF team that was never on paper on the level they were achieving.

Even in SAF time How many times have people complained about - Rio, inuries to defenders, Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, our entire CM, Young, Valencia, wellbeck ?

Im not saying that Ferguson left Moyes with a shit team, but there were problems with that squad long before SAF left. the difference was the stability of having SAF running things. He knew everything inside out , what he could get out of players and who would play for him. Some idiots suggested that Moyes should of known who to get rid of when he came to united, but herin lies the major part of their argument> fans watch a match and think its as simple as - "Sure young is shit, therefore moyes should of known this before he joined" when in fact it is nowhere near as simple as that.

Good post - a lot of what I'm driving at in there.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I suppose all we can hope for is that Moyes learns from this season and that he can adapt next season, because he hasn't visibly evolved as a manager since taking the job here.