Moussa Dembele (Lyon) - Take Him?
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I'd rather take Memphis back for 30m.
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Apologies I didn’t realise.
In that case I absolutely agree with you on that point. If you’re going to invest that much £60m you’re better off investing in someone like Haaland. My only issue with that is what happens to Greenwood who is equally promising?
I’d start him as a right side forward and give him licence to roam In field.
This is assuming we don’t get Sancho
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I’m not sure about him to be honest. He’s a good player but his mentality concerns me.
He would fill in nicely as a sort of BTEC Martial good on the ball can play wide or central but I can’t see him being happy with second fiddle.
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He’s performed really well as a right side forward to be fair and if he was putting up the numbers at another side in the PL I’m sure we’d all be very excited about signing him. But do you not think starting him is a risk?I’d start him as a right side forward and give him licence to roam In field.
This is assuming we don’t get Sancho
I’d be happy with him getting games as a wide forward understudy as he learns the PL a bit better but I see him ultimately as a CF. His finishing is too good to waste out wide although it works for Liverpool to have their better finishers wide so who knows!
I think we’re all really hoping to get Sancho as it enables Greenwood to get game time in either central or wide positions without the pressure of always having to be on top form.
I wouldn’t want to use any of our (presumably) restricted transfer budget on a ST, unless it was a minimal amount to even out a player swap. Given the pandemic’s likely financial impact, we should be filling holes in the starting XI rather than building depth as I don’t think we can do both in this next window.
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We can’t go into the season without 3 Martial, ST and Greenwood so I understand people floating around names like Dembele.
Rashford can play centrally but he’s a very good LF/LW and I think you lose too much of his natural game to consider him and then you end up shoehorning someone else out wide.
Ighalo was our stop gap and a very good one based on his performances and we still need one to allow Greenwood time to mature physically for a central role. So if Ighalo isn’t signed or loaned someone needs to come in.
I think he is more mature know and got something to prove at Manchester , the price tag for us is also good.
I'm not really keen, his goalscoring record isn't exactly shit hot. He's got 22 goals in 42 in Ligue 1 this season, even Lacazette got 37 for Lyon in just 3 games more in his last season there. We can do better.
We either need a striker at/near the end of his peak to take the burden off Martial and Greenwood whilst not blocking their path, or someone so amazing that they push them both down the pecking order anyway. Dembele is the same age as Martial and not as good, so what's the point?
We either need a striker at/near the end of his peak to take the burden off Martial and Greenwood whilst not blocking their path, or someone so amazing that they push them both down the pecking order anyway. Dembele is the same age as Martial and not as good, so what's the point?
I think he is more mature know and got something to prove at Manchester , the price tag for us is also good.
I'd rather get the guy that replaced him at Celtic, Odsonne Edouard.
What golden_blunder said. Plus: Greenwood, Martial, Rashford are all technically better, and 2 are younger. Other positions are more urgent to fix: centre back, right wing, left back.
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Depends on the fee he’s even more of an unknown in terms of true quality.
Who would you put forward as a realistic target?
We have a buy back option I believe but I think he likes showing off a bit too much. In the French league he has the time and space to do so in England im not so sure.
If he accepted a squad role it would be a good signing from a quality perspective. But again what would the fee be?
I probably wouldn't go after a striker tbh, not as a marquee signing anyway. I'd try and keep Ighalo if we could get him for under 15m, but if not I woudn't splash out on one. I'd be looking at picking up Mertens on the cheap or something.
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I think I’d agree it’s not a marquee we should be after but we need someone there. Would Mertens fit into the side? He doesn’t offer a traditional striker role that Ighalo does.
Haha. Chris Wood hit double digits this season for the 3rd straight season. Pukki (a horrendous flop in the same Scottish league you totally disregard) is in double digits. Ings, a flop when given the opportunity at a top club, is on 15 goals this season. Calvert-Lewin is on 13. But yeah, we're unsure if a guy with 42 in 88 for Lyon would be able to match those heights.
The PL is the weakest it has been in ages. One team is 25 points clear of the rest and a team straight from the Championship is sitting there on the brink of CL football. It isn't like back in the day where there were 4 teams from it in the CL semi's.
Ultimately what it all boils down to. Playing in Scotland at any point is utter toxic when it comes to the opinions of English football fans. For what it's worth, would you remind me which league the best defender in the PL came from?
He’s not the same type of striker as Ighalo, but I think he’d fit in no problem. It depends how Ole wants to play, I don’t really see Dembele offering the traits of Ighalo either. Who knows where he wants to take us.
I meant buying two fecking players especially if we dont keep Ighalo. Also you dont have to use the same formation every game. Rotation is also a thing
Sure. Back when Lyon was dominating the league with Juninho they were also somewhat of a european force... although the president remains the same, the landscape changed so much for them...
I still think of Lyon as the biggest club in France in terms of tradition, so it's weird seeing them struggle, but these are very strange times.
So, they probably can't buy a few players without selling and seems like Moussa Dembele got some value in the market although not sure how much. I think United is more likely to trust in Greenwood than to go for him though.
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There is a very strong possibility that our spending will be more conservative than before. Which means spending big on what will be a bit part player (barring miraculous increase in ability).
If we don’t keep Ighalo absolutely a replacement is needed but spending the quoted figures on that kind of player is I think everyone’s issue here.
Chris Wood is a good PL striker and the team is set up to play to his strengths. He is perfect for the system he’s in. Can you tell me what you believe Dembélé would play like and how he’d fit in
Pukki isn’t very good. One good patch of form and what has he done since?
Ings has got himself a position in a team again set up for his play style but he’s just a flash in the pan (which you get every season with average PL strikers)
Calvert Lewin has all the athleticism you could want in a forward and really suits a two man forward line as Ancelotti has said before again suited to his system.
They also play every game which Dembele would not as he’s not better than Martial.
I think it’s not the weakest it’s been in ages for us it’s the strongest as we have two unquestionably world Class teams to catch up with and for £60m I’d be looking for someone who is elevating the first team. Not someone who compares well to Chris Wood.
Playing in the Scottish league isn’t toxic. Lots of people have mentioned Edouard as a good potential target but what is toxic is considering exhorbitant fees for just good players not great ones. £30m for him and I’d say its a good deal representative of where he is at as a player but £40/50/60 and your pushing it too far for it to be value for money.
I mean he’d fit into the wide forward roles but I can’t see him leading the line like Martial or Ighalo. Dembele is slightly more like Ighalo than Mertens but neither offer the same.
I agree with the sentiments of this we are one of the only clubs who regularly signs strikers and converts them to wingers, then wonders why we have no players who are naturally consistent in wide positions, thus always inverting movement towards the center during play making us narrow and easy to defend against.
I can't stand the misuse of players being taken out of their natural element for the benefit of the teams deficiency. I think this should only happen when the player has the capabilities and intelligence to do so like a Kimmich / Lahm. Greenwood is one of the most prolific goalscorers in the youth setup and has a decent return for what I'd consider a debut season coming off the bench. He should be playing through the middle.
If Martial can stay fit and Ole learns how to coach the movement in the middle of the park, we should have a team that is capable of playing ball to feet and not requiring a stronger central player to "trap" the ball in possession and back into the opponent. I know Greenwood isn't a finished product but Ole seemingly didn't favour a player of the profile of Lukaku, we should be utilising what we have and that's a fluid front three with movement to cater for a few weaknesses.
I understand you take if personally since you support Celtic, and Im not saying a player is shit because because he was in the scottish league.
Many great players have come out of there, but Virgil wasn’t nearly what he is when he was at Celtic, he got better Southampton and then got incredibly good at Liverpool.
Being honest as harsh it may sound, the scottish league is below the championship in terms of quality, besides Celtic and maybe Rangers all the other teams are around League One quality. So again, not saying a player is shit just because he plays in that league, but numbers there are a little reference when comparing with stronger leagues.
Regarding the ones you mention Wood, Pukki, Calvert Lewin. I would only take Calvert Lewin and because of his age and potential.
We are not discussing if they can make it in the premier league, we are discussing if they can make it at ManUtd and help us to get back to the top, which really really different.
This Ole didn't favour Lukaku is non-sense. Lukaku already made statement about this that Ole wanted Lukaku to stay as part of his attacking option rotate with Rashford & Martial. Lukaku refused with the idea and thus why he left because he wanted to be guaranteed playing week in week out.
Both Martial & Rashford are still considered to be young to reach their prime, Ole knows they won't be as consistent as world class attackers, there will be times when they will have off form & also fatigue. This brings the idea why Ole wanted to replace Lukaku with Haland in the first place and why United scout had been watching Dembele.
Greenwood still got long way to go for the striker role & physically he's still weak and unable to hold the ball when centre back behind his back. It's not coincidence that he scored most of his goals from the right side or when he came from the bench played up front in two strikers roles. By playing wide or in 2 striker roles, he was provided more spaces. He can always learn many things by playing wide to make him a complete striker & attacker in the future rather than just a goalscorer.
I think you also missed the point. Striker is necessary because every formation require striker unless if you want to play in the World Cup like Spain. Ole doesn't always play with 4231, he's flexible and also uses 352 for his 2nd formation. And 352 doesn't require winger.
If we don't replace Ighalo, we will left with Greenwood only as our goal scorer to change the game on the bench. Having Sancho in our XI now doesn't make our XI becomes invincible, relying on 19 years old Greenwood to be game changer when we needed one is not a good idea imo. I agree with people that we should focus on strengthened our XI first. However, striker is a different case, striker can change the game. And in this matter, the striker's role isn't just playing a backup role but also rotation.
Haland is going to be cost above 60m next, Martinez will be cost above 60m. Werner cost 56m because he has release clause. While Dembele being 60m doesn't mean the club will pay it, club always try to place much much smaller fees. In this market, very rarely you can get something cheaper than 40m for a 23/24 years old striker who is constantly scoring 15-20 goals per season in the last 5 years. I won't be surprised it'll be like around or closed to 40m initial fees plus bonus to make it to 50m-60m if we are really going for Dembele.
I think we'll sign him.
At his age and ability he needs to be playing most weeks surely.
How is he going to do that for us? Seriously doubt he takes Martials place and its not even certain he'd be ahead of Mason the way he's played.
I think this is agent BS. He doesn't fit the back up striker requirement for me. Hes probably too good to be back up for us but not quite good enough to lead the line either.
No thanks.
How is he going to do that for us? Seriously doubt he takes Martials place and its not even certain he'd be ahead of Mason the way he's played.
I think this is agent BS. He doesn't fit the back up striker requirement for me. Hes probably too good to be back up for us but not quite good enough to lead the line either.
No thanks.
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I understand what a striker is... don’t be patronising.
I also if you read my post before replying you would notice I included Ighalo as a second string striker option and have on numerous occasions said we need Martial another striker and Greenwood.
The 3-5-2 is predominantly used against good sides where actually we play a central striker and often Daniel James as a winger/forward for his pace. Rashford could also operate centrally with Martial in the 3-5-2 Or Greenwood/ Ighalo. So I see your point here. At no point have I claimed we don’t need someone other than Martial and Greenwood.
Given the choice between Sancho and Dembele id much rather Sancho who is a guaranteed starter. I’d rather have that too XI and Greenwood on the bench then have a gaping hole at RW and Dembele on the bench.
If you’re looking to invest £40m in a squad player I’m worried! I cant pick out any point in our history where we have spent that much on a squad player the closest maybe being Fred who has turned out to be a potential first team player.
Again however if you read my thoughts you’d note that I only said if the fee is around £60M there are other better options for that price but get closer to £30m and you have a better reflection of his value in a coronavirus market.
So for me we either buy to replace Marital, buy to replace Greenwood’s potential or find someone to operate as a Squad player and I believe it will be a squad player we go for. Dembele at £40m would not be a sensible investment
Wow, where did that come from. You have some issue man. Calm down.
Greenwood was getting very close to becoming a player that we can no longer leave out of the team. If hes put on a little muscle during this time out then he might be there now. He'll be a superstar
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You go on to explain that a striker is used in formations? Was that ever in question no so it didn’t need saying and comes across as patronising and then you go onto respond to the post having clearly not read it. You also suggest I don’t understand something that I clearly do understand,
We need a striker but Dembele for £60m isn’t it
I can 100% sure you didn't understand what's going on at all in the discussion and talking whatever comes in your mind about Dembele & Greenwood.
When I referred to the other poster about "you are missing the point", it was very clear I referred to Rozay's post "And we played with two at a time" replied on Dwazza Gunnar Solskjaer's post "I can remember a time when we had four top strikers and won things."
The point is not about whether we are playing with two. The point is that we used to have good quality striker option in both starting XI & the bench that we can relied on, not just a graduated teenager. When Ole wanted to sign Haland, it wasn't because he wanted to replace Martial.
Just because the report says 60m doesn't mean we will pay 60m. Otherwise what's the point of negotiation. If Ole wants Dembele as his alternative of failing to land Haland & secure Ighalo as per the sources say, I understand because Dembele has done good with his goal scoring record at his age in the last 5 seasons in a row.
Even Celtic and Rangers would probably struggle against the better Championship teams tbh. No need to be polite about it. SPL is a rubbish league. Top players have come from many rubbish leagues before, it is no proof of anything, all players have to start somewhere.
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Read my posts. I make reference to the need for depth several times... don’t make comments about another poster’s understanding and then show a complete lack of understanding of points I’ve made.
Yes we used to have top quality on the bench but as I’ve previously said I don’t see any top quality striker being content at being on the bench for Manchester United. Look at Lukaku who has a better record than Dembele and is a better striker we could not keep him happy being behind Martial so a degree of realism needs to be accepted here. We are not a regular title challenging and potential champions league winning side. We do not have unlimited funds to spend big on average strikers. We still have big holes in our starting XI before we look at the depth issue which I agree will be an issue but not something we can fix in one window whilst sorting priorities especially after the effects of coronavirus.
There are barely any clubs in world football who have two world class strikers one in the starting XI and one on the bench.
What instead now happens is these world class forwards work as a unit of three players and if you are very lucky you get a 4th option winger who is quality but I can’t find any team with two CFs to rotate of unquestionable worldquality.
Barcelona - Messi Suarez Griezmann (fluid front 3 with Braithwaite as back up striker)
Bayern - Lewandowski Gnabry Coutinho (Muller in behind leaves Zirkzee as the back up striker)
Liverpool - Salah Firmino Mane (Origi back striker)
Real Madrid - Hazard Benzema Bale (lots of young rotation out wide but back up striker Jovic or Dias both average!)
Man City - Sterling Aguero Silva (Great back up out wide and good young striker Jesus) probably the closest to what you seek?
Juventus - Ronaldo Higuain Cuadrado (Good wide depth but no actual CF replacement for Higuain)
PSG - Neymar Mbappe Di Maria (Back up ST Icardi who wants to leave and Cavani who’s a lot older) again closest to what you want in terms of options up front.
So believe me I understand what you are saying you think we need depth but look at most of the top sides in Europe they don’t all have or need a ST back up like you said it’s more about having a world class starting 3 and maybe having another good winger if you are lucky!
Ive not said Haaland was to replace Martial but Haaland is younger than Dembele and better value by a mile! So the criticism towards Dembele isn’t suddenly a moot point because of a pursuit of someone (who again if you read what I’ve said) is exactly the kind of quality you do pay big money for!
I also understand that we might not pay that amount and again if you look at what I’ve said before he would be worth going for at a lower fee but £40/50/60m I am expecting either a starting striker or a very promising youngster.
I understand that Dembele may be considered an option but the only thing I’ve been majorly against is funnelling funds towards a squad player when we have an excellent starter, one of the most promising teenagers in world football and a Sancho sized hole in our RW spot which for me is the priority.
If you have time I suggest you have a quick read of my thoughts on Dembele in this thread and you’ll see why your initial comment appeared patronising to me and this follow up shows me you haven’t read what I’ve said on the matter.
Martial, age 24, scored 26 goals in 69 matches as a French youth national; Dembele, age 23, scored 23 goals in 59 such matches; Edouard, age 22, scored 25 goals in 40 such matches. Of the 3, Edouard has the best play maker numbers as a pro with 19 assists in 3660' this season. Martial's best were 11 assists in 4663' in 14/15, and Dembele's best were 9 assists in 2411' in 17/18. Edouard is 187cm tall, weighs 83kg, very strong, fast, and quick with good dribble and passing skills.
I'd pick Edouard to replace Benzema as CF for the French national team over Martial and Dembele. For 25m, he would be a bargain buy for Ole's attack, imo.
I'd pick Edouard to replace Benzema as CF for the French national team over Martial and Dembele. For 25m, he would be a bargain buy for Ole's attack, imo.
Benzema hasn’t been the CF for many years. And I’d be extremely surprised if Edouard gets close. It’s Mbappe’s for the foreseeable and I don’t think he’ll give it up any time soon.
You are specifically said "I don’t think anyone missed the point. We had 4 top strikers for 2 positions." Clearly you didn't get it, because the point is not about we had 4 for 2 position.
The point of having another good quality striker option is not so we can challenge the league, but it's to make sure we have option that we can bring on to change the game rather than relying on one teenager alone to change the game from the bench. It also provides competition & rotation for others.
I'm not going to mention about how Liverpool wanted to sign Werner despite of having Firmino, Mane, Salah. And I'm not going to repeat myself telling you that both Martial & Rashford are not at world class level like those names you mentioned that they don't need to be rotated. And instead, I'll tell you one thing very clear. Stop comparing us with others, we are Manchester United doesn't mean we need to be like others. The reality is Ole wanted Lukaku to stay, he wanted to replace Lukaku with Haland. I'm just making points what the manager wanted and I believe he was right.
I never said we'll fix everything in one window. What about you read my post & also my original post on this thread. This is the first post of this thread:
I read your same post many times. You clearly either don't read or just don't give a damn shit about different opinion.
Personally think this is just press talk, and I wouldnt be happy if it wasnt. He is so average. Strange how there are so many great young English talents, a whole load of central midfielders.....but where are the great young strikers in the world at the moment? Only really see Haaland and of course we have a fantastic one potentially with Greenwood.
Personally I would be happy just keeping what we have for this season to see how Greenwood develops hot on the heels of challenging Martial
Cant see us doing more than 4 deals, probably less, but if so two cm, rw and a cb would be my choices
Personally I would be happy just keeping what we have for this season to see how Greenwood develops hot on the heels of challenging Martial
Cant see us doing more than 4 deals, probably less, but if so two cm, rw and a cb would be my choices
Edouard is a good young striker with incredible stats
Well there's Mason Greenwood and Tammy Abraham so it's not that bad, although obviously we'll need more than 2 strikers. CB strikes me as the potential problem position for future England teams. We don't seem to have produced much quality there since Maguire.