I don't really care what the position is called, but essentially this translates as disbelief we do not have football people in the crucial football decision making positions. That's a fair assessment.
Monchi - "I cannot believe Manchester United do not have a Sporting Director."
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
- Start date
It's easy to talk shit when you're a feeder club. You take high risk signings at low value and sometimes they pay off, but you buy when they are cheap as feck, not when they are 80 million euro signings.
Same bullshit chip on shoulder that Dortmund have.
If we put 120 million euro's on the table today, Dortmund will pull their pants down make no fecking mistake.
Does it actually matter right people in decision making positions is what is required whether they are football people or not is irrelevant ,trust me football people are as much capable of being useless and ineffective as our current management having said that Woodward and Co have done some good things as well we have revamped our scouting network and our academy we now just need somebody who can bind this all together whether it's in form of great manager or this DOf which we all seem to be clamour for after every transfer window.
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Oh we absolutely had, his name was Sir Alex Ferguson.
Ole, Phelan, Technical scouting director, chief scout, global scout, Ed. Only one of those isn’t a football person. Because that is the committee that decides our targets.
What happens between it being decided who we go for and when it’s decided who knows but the only thing I really see a sporting director helping us with is when negotiations start or these talks of who is identified.
Given we are ran like a buisness it wouldn’t surprise me if we wait to see what kind of operating budget we have before these conversations start. Then Ed and Judge have to try and get as much as they can out of the budget.
I’m sure any Tom dick or Harry could be a sporting director if just said here is your Yearly budget, you go and plan and we’ll give you cart-Blanche on decisitions.
Its also going to be pretty easy at a lower level club like Sevilla with lower expectations. Somewhere where you can take a risk on a player and give them time to come through. That just isn’t happening at big clubs becuase the demand for success is instant and you have to make the right choices.
I’m sure Monchi and the guy at Lille’s transfer record is littered with people they bought that didn’t make the grade and then the only ones we hear about are the ones that they struck gold with and can sell to a big club for a hefty price.
The clubs problem is that it’s a buisness 1st, football club 2nd. Heck actually it might be a brand 2nd, football club 3rd.
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We need change. How this looks like specifically, i don't care, but change something ffs
VdS isn't the Sporting director at Ajax but rather the CEO at the club as mentioned by a previous poster. But for us it would be more beneficial to hire VdS as CEO to replace Woodward rather than to bring in a Sporting director to work under Woodward. Why? Because I believe that under VdS we would by default have a Sporting director in place with everyone in the football department pulling in the same direction which hasn't been the case post Fergie. And we would also sign players that fit the Manchester United way which is playing proactive attacking football. We've wasted too much money on players who don't fit into a proactive play style and that includes Maguire and AWB IMO.
Getting VdS would be the game changer because he would then put into place the structure which would see us recruit players for a defined play style and we'd likely save money too in the long-run and we'd have a team that plays attacking football with a head-coach who would have the same principles and would concentrate on coaching the team while the footballing department would provide him with the tools to challenge for the league.
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Woodward and Co didn't revamp our football academy; football people did. Remember the much-maligned Moyes and van Gaal looked at the club and suggested changes? Woodward only reacted to it and assumed credit.
However, to use your own point, a Director of Football is also capable of being useless too. Sadly there are no guarantees no matter what the job title.
I agree with you, we are playing the manager lottery, as the dippers did for 30 years, before winning.
This. Agreed.
I think this has gone beyond getting a DOF, Woodward has got to go along with Judge because I think Arnold in his current role is enough to run the commercial side. We now need a new CEO and VDS is the ideal candidate to restore some integrity back into our club.
VDS can then hire a DOF because if it is done by Woodward he will just bring in another feel good ex player without the experience for the role.
We also had a manager that had been at the club for over two decades with no chance of him being sacked. Now, in an era of high manager turnover it doesn't make sense to let the manager alone decide on signings only for him to be sacked and the players he purchased deemed ill suited for the next manager. We seemed to change philosophy on our types of signings from manager to manager. Neither LVG, nor Ole would have ever wanted a Lukaku type for example and few managers even trying to play decent football would (not that our football is breathtaking nor was it under LVG)
According to Ole himself it requires 5 scouts to veto him for a potential incoming. We're still giving too much power to the manager when it comes to recruitment and therein lies our problem post Fergie from Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and now Ole who all had/have their own personal scout(s).
So Woodward gets the blame for hiring the wrong managers and our failings in the market but can't be given the credit for doing well in revamping our academy and our scouting department where he was the key decision maker but you are happy to credit Moyes and VanGaal for something which they hardly had any role or actual power to influence.
I am not defending Woodward and Co here just giving the devil his due.
But who is coordinating all the efforts to ensure that a decision has been made and the ground work for the signing done before the season has ended? Take a look at how last season panned out, do you think Ole and Phelan had the time to focus on summer recruitment when we went into the last game of the season with everything on the line?
DoFs won't insulate us from poor signings, those things happen to everyone DoF or no DoF but they help ensure that we are better prepared going into the transfer window so that when it opens we know what we are getting and what's required.
Just look at the chaos that has characterized our Sancho chase, we were still trying to persuade O. Dembele to join up with less than to go to deadline day whereas a better prepared club would have known that Sancho is not doable and moved onto other targets who can help the team.
I don't expect miracles from a DoF but just more focus, knowledge, better connections and avoiding wasting time on unrealistic targets. Everyone and their dog knew that Dortmund wouldn't accept a penny less than €120m but Woodward and Judge somehow believed they would cave in and wasted a whole transfer window in that belief, who does that?
The main difference between Ole, Jose, LVG is that Ole shares the same vision as what the club is famed for. Jose didn’t want to embrace the United way. LVG maybe had some of the values but the football was very different.
What would VDS do that is any different from Ole? I think I read also that Phelan, chief scout, tech scout also have a veto. There may be other scouts in the committee but I’m sure I’ve heard Ole also say he can be vetoed by one of the tech or chief scout.
I haven't said anything about Woodward's hires or fires/transfers.
Moyes was appointed under the advice of a football man and that's a fail which has nothing to do with Woodward, but you only need to read articles to see Moyes and van Gaal suggested/implemented changes; so it's not actually me giving them the credit. How can you say the manager of the football club has no role/influence on the academy and scouting department? You make it sound like Wooward did it single-handedly without football people.
The only due I'll give the devil is he listened.
I’m far from convinced that putting Gary Neville or Ferdinand in charge of our transfers would make a blond but if difference. That’s what the article seemed to be saying.
great players, and United legends. But what qualifications/ experience do they have?
I’m all for change, and the setup we have needs adjusting - but seriously, is that a better option?
great players, and United legends. But what qualifications/ experience do they have?
I’m all for change, and the setup we have needs adjusting - but seriously, is that a better option?
Don't you see an issue with handing out veto power on such an important decision to every Tom, Dick and Harry? So where is the accountability, singular vision and the necessary streamlining of a decision making process? An example, we had a small window with Thiago but with such a multilayered decision making process you can see why we failed to utilize it.
Let's say the whole recruitment set up is at odds over a player, who has the power to break the impasse? Woodward, obviously but is he equipped to make such a decision? On the other hand if hand too much power to the manager he can hurt you in the long run like LVG did.
But if we don't trust the manager, why is he in the job?
This is actually very interesting; is there an online article relating to this?
Tell me did Wan Bissaka and Maguire suit playing for a coach who wants to implement a high pressure game? They were clearly wrong signings and will set us back for years to come IMO. It's fine understanding the culture, identity and vision at the club but if you start wasting vast amounts on players who don't fit the style you want to play then questions should be asked.
VdS would come in as CEO and his role is very different to Ole's so he would do alot different because he would have a bigger responsibility/authority at the club. And I believe under him we would have the same structure at the club that is presently at his current club which is similar to literally all the succesful clubs in Europe.
Because sometimes the manager's interest and those of the club would be at odds. For example in 2017/18 we signed Matic when Fabinho was available for a similar price, the manager's interest prevailed over the club's and now he is winning titles left, right and centre for Liverpool.
A similar thing could have happened this summer with Ole only wanting Sancho and nobody else. The net result is we spend the whole window chasing a player we can not afford whilst we have Lindelof stinking up the place in the heart of defence.
Another thing is that you could agree with your manager or back him to the hilt but then results make his job untenable and you are left with expensive flops that your next manager doesn't want anything to do with. Happened to us with Jose and LVG.
The thing is neither Woodward or Judge are adequately skilled to question the manager's decisions. A true football man however is and will most likely be able to secure a replacement who shares the same ethos as what he is trying to achieve for the club.
You don't make him the manager but rather the Head coach who concentrates on improving players which is normal at most big clubs.
I don't have a link but i've seen the interview which was at the back end of last season.
What happens when the club's signings turn out to be another Shevchenko or whoever? Are we saying Klopp had no decision over signing Fabinho or Keita? Or any Liverpool player? I find that hard to believe. Is it not more likely the case Klopp just had the knowledge, experience, and gut instinct to pick the right player (in Fabinho's case)?
"The options were Gary Neville or Rio Ferdinand". 
feck me.
feck me.Is that true of Liverpool do you think? Genuine question.
I'll have a search for that interview. Cheers.
But the fact remains, Fabinho wouldn't have been available for Liverpool if United hadn't listened to Mourinho. Matic's signing went against the club's stated policy of signing players over the age of 28 whilst Fabinho fitted it like a glove and we were extensively linked with him meaning that we gave him more than a cursory glance.
On Klopp, maybe he is a genius but Liverpool do have a clear structure and a Technical Director behind him. So it could be that the recruitment team presented him with the option of signing Fabinho and he concurred?
Yes it's true of Liverpool aswell who have a coach right now that has a recruitment department headed by Michael Edwards who greatly helps him sign the correct profile of player for his style of play. Before Liverpool, Klopp was greatly helped in that regard by Michael Zorc at Dortmund.
It really surprises me that after our disasters in the transfer windows over past 7 years people on here still question the need for a Director of football.
The idea that a football person should come in and run football affairs of the club can not be underestimated.
A manager or coach should focus on training the players. Buying, selling and renewing players contracts is the job of the Football Director.
The club is lagging behind because Alex Fergusson doesn't like the idea of a Director of Football. Fergie is still living in the past, things have changed in football now.
When you have 3 muppets Ed Woodward, Matt Judge and Richard Arnold as your de facto football directors, we deserve a rubbish transfer window like this one. Who can take these people seriously in the world of football?
The idea that a football person should come in and run football affairs of the club can not be underestimated.
A manager or coach should focus on training the players. Buying, selling and renewing players contracts is the job of the Football Director.
The club is lagging behind because Alex Fergusson doesn't like the idea of a Director of Football. Fergie is still living in the past, things have changed in football now.
When you have 3 muppets Ed Woodward, Matt Judge and Richard Arnold as your de facto football directors, we deserve a rubbish transfer window like this one. Who can take these people seriously in the world of football?
We also had a massive competitive advantage. You don’t really need to spend months analysing players if you can sign the best players in the league from rival teams every year
But you're siting one example of "the one that got away" as all-encompassing and damning. We all know Mourinho wasn't right for United now.
I'm not sure about Klopp's genius, I'm sure he's bought (and will buy) some turkeys, but I'm willing to bet he's had some say so in who he works with.
People often conflate wanting Woodward away from (all) football decisions with the need for a DoF. It might be a possible solution to relieving Woodward of some power but it’s not the only solution.
You still end up more successful than the Manchester United of the last 7 years.
The reason we need a DOF is to keep our managers in check, not tell our CEO how to run a business.
But having a DOF doesn't take that say so away it simply means that someone can override it, in a few instances, to cater for the club's long term interests.
And Fabinho isnt the only example where we got fecked because we listened to the manager. Take LVG he gutted the squad to our long term detriment and brought in players that were worse than the ones he sold for peanuts.
Then Ole comes in, initially doing well with a high press and attacking fullbacks with Pogba playing as the furthest forward midfield player. What does he do in the summer? Spend £130m on players that ensure that we can't play that style without exposing ourselves to pace.
There is simply no continuity in what we do and its hurting us.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for a Director of Football if it improves us. Something needs to be done somewhere.
In my view it's no longer enough, in 2018/19 it was but not now. Woodward and Judge are too far gone and beyond redemption:
1. They overly rely on Agents to get deals done because they don't have the connections and haven't earned the respect, like Gill had, amongst their counterparts.
2. Their reputation with clubs, managers and players is certainly in the gutter. The end result is that we are now a target for ridicule not serious business negotiations.
For me we need to ditch Woodward and bring in Edwin Van Der Sar as CEO with the brief to overhaul the football side and the recruitment department in particular. We need a DOF with his own scouts and Head of Recruitment.
I never said I disagree with getting a DoF on board, I just said getting a DoF isn’t the only solution. If we had a competent, football orientated CEO and/or Board of directors, things could improve as well. At the moment the problem is our CEO’s first priority is running a commercial enterprise and not a football club. I think LvG was the first to say it, but we all knew it.
So I agree with you, actually. I just don’t understand how Woodward is still in a job after hiring and firing, buying and selling so many managers/players. Surely he should have either been removed from football operations or replaced. But yeah, getting a competent DoF wouldn’t be a bad idea imo. I was simply stating that a DoF isn’t the only solution.
I mean we appointed our actual manager on that basis didn't we? Why else is Ole here?
Personally I'd give it to Keane just because I'd trust him to tell Woodward how it is. Our scouts will identify the talent we just need someone strong enough to filter out players based on profile/attitude and then stand up to Woodward. He'd fall out with everyone within 6 months of course but those 6 months
Which it should be. We're a publicly traded company on the NYSE. If our CEO's priority is anything other than the well-being of the business itself, he's in the wrong job.