Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea

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luke511 said:
He played as an 8 for Brighton last year, he’s basically a better, more consistent version of Fred, that can play as a lone 6 as well. Mount is more of a 10 than an 8, Caicedo is more of a 6 than an 8, both players can play as an 8 with different purposes. We have players like Amad and Mainoo that have the capability to play as a creative 8/10 like Mount, having Casemiro and/or Caicedo behind them will help unlock our attack and protect the defence incredibly well.
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We can debate position numbers...but the fact is Mount and Caicedo are two very different players. Ten Hag is not looking to play Mount in the Fernandes position. He is looking for a younger Eriksen. Caicedo is a super player but will not give you the creativity. You cannot have a list of midfielders to get in and have Mount top and Caicedo as a similar second choice for the same position. It is like comparing Maguire and De Gea (extreme example). Simple as...
 
luke511 said:
You mentioned 4-2-3-1 being a worthy solution to our away game dilemma last season, wouldn’t you prefer to see Caicedo as the second CM in those type of games, given Fred and McTominay are leaving?
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Caicedo would be better suited to that role than Mount for sure - but I think ETH wants to field two "pressing 8s", so with a new CF (who can press) + Mount + Fernandes + Anthony + Rashford (who can press when he's not wandering around sulking), the theory is we won't need to sit deep, we can defend from the front.

We couldn't do that least season because we had too many players who were bad pressers in attacking positions too frequently and we'd have just gotten exposed
 
Lentwood said:
Few points on the Mount vs Caicedo debate...

1) Caicedo is currently the more fashionable, 'in-vogue' footballer.
2) Mount has achieved far more in his career, both domestically and internationally. He has won major trophies, including the Champions League.
3) Mount has represented a club and a national team playing at the highest level, competing for the biggest trophies, with high aspirations
4) Caicedo has largely played for 'underdogs' in Ecuador and Brighton.
5) United had the opportunity to sign Caicedo (or at least, it was widely reported that we did) for £3.5m two years ago. We decided not to sign him.
6) Caicedo has been deployed at RB at times this season for Brighton. It strikes me as odd that they would deploy a player some believe to be a world class CM at RB. It can happen, but it seems strange to me.
7) It strikes me that both are 'good' players in their own right, but that both can be 'excellent players', when given a specific role within a well-organised team.
8) It remains to be see how Caicedo can transition from playing a specific role in a side with midtable aspirations to playing a role in a side challenging for trophies, a scenario in which he'll face more low-blocks and middle blocks, and will need to be able to play incisive, progressive passes.
9) We should have fewer doubts about Mount's ability to perform his specific role at the highest level - because he already has.
10) Overall, despite Caicedo being more fashionable, I think Mount is clearly the safer option. Yes, we know that Mount isn't a world beating superstar, but we know he is a very effective cog in a good machine. There's some probability Caicedo could have a higher ceiling, but a somewhat larger probability he struggles and/or fades into relative mediocrity at a bigger club.
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I know you can write more objectively than that... if you want to.

Might as well have just said: the case for Mason Mount as you've not presented balanced reasoning here, if you were indeed intending to.
 
Lentwood said:
Few points on the Mount vs Caicedo debate...

1) Caicedo is currently the more fashionable, 'in-vogue' footballer.
2) Mount has achieved far more in his career, both domestically and internationally. He has won major trophies, including the Champions League.
3) Mount has represented a club and a national team playing at the highest level, competing for the biggest trophies, with high aspirations
4) Caicedo has largely played for 'underdogs' in Ecuador and Brighton.
5) United had the opportunity to sign Caicedo (or at least, it was widely reported that we did) for £3.5m two years ago. We decided not to sign him.
6) Caicedo has been deployed at RB at times this season for Brighton. It strikes me as odd that they would deploy a player some believe to be a world class CM at RB. It can happen, but it seems strange to me.
7) It strikes me that both are 'good' players in their own right, but that both can be 'excellent players', when given a specific role within a well-organised team.
8) It remains to be see how Caicedo can transition from playing a specific role in a side with midtable aspirations to playing a role in a side challenging for trophies, a scenario in which he'll face more low-blocks and middle blocks, and will need to be able to play incisive, progressive passes.
9) We should have fewer doubts about Mount's ability to perform his specific role at the highest level - because he already has.
10) Overall, despite Caicedo being more fashionable, I think Mount is clearly the safer option. Yes, we know that Mount isn't a world beating superstar, but we know he is a very effective cog in a good machine. There's some probability Caicedo could have a higher ceiling, but a somewhat larger probability he struggles and/or fades into relative mediocrity at a bigger club.
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11) Mason Mount's farts smell better.
 
Dazzmondo said:
Caicedo is far more talented on the ball than Casemiro. I've watched him loads. He's not a basic enforcer. His range of passing and first touch is excellent. I'd like to see him do it more, but I have seen him occasionally make some very good forward runs with the ball also, so this is something he's capable of developing imo. Mount isn't a natural 8 at all imo, whereas Caicedo definitely is, while also being able to cover for Cas if he gets injured or suspended. I'm starting to suspect the reason we were going for Mount is that we didn't think we could afford the £80m for Caicedo this season and ETH was willing to try Mount a bit higher up after Bruno showed he can play a deeper cm role really well this season.
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Who had more goals and assists (end product) last season? Casemiro or Caicedo. Check it out. That is not to say Caicedo can't improve. For the price we need end product now. We have already made pricey errors with Antony and Sancho.
 
sixdwarf said:
We can debate position numbers...but the fact is Mount and Caicedo are two very different players. Ten Hag is not looking to play Mount in the Fernandes position. He is looking for a younger Eriksen. Caicedo is a super player but will not give you the creativity. You cannot have a list of midfielders to get in and have Mount top and Caicedo as a similar second choice for the same position. It is like comparing Maguire and De Gea (extreme example). Simple as...
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Caicedo and Casemiro are both all rounded enough to help with creativity and goals, but even without them in the equation, you can still play with 2 or 3 playmakers in the side with them in midfield. There shouldn’t be a concern over creativity because of Caicedo, with our current squad including him:

Home games -

Rashford
Garnacho Bruno Amad Antony
Casemiro Caicedo
Shaw Varane Martinez​

Away games -

Rashford
Garnacho Bruno Amad/Antony
Casemiro Caicedo
Shaw Martinez Varane Dalot/AWB​
 
sixdwarf said:
Who had more goals and assists (end product) last season? Casemiro or Caicedo. Check it out. That is not to say Caicedo can't improve. For the price we need end product now. We have already made pricey errors with Antony and Sancho.
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Goals and assists for a cm. Keane and Carrick would have been seen as total mugs by some of you lot :rolleyes: Not worth continuing this conversation with you
 
Recruitment hasn't improved at all has it, this is like last year when we went from FDJ to Casemiro. Both great players but entirely different in style and purpose.
 
Newtonius said:
Recruitment hasn't improved at all has it, this is like last year when we went from FDJ to Casemiro. Both great players but entirely different in style and purpose.
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Caceido has long been on the list. Ten Hag has been in on this, so if he thinks caceido is fine instead of mount, I believe him.
 
Lentwood said:
Few points on the Mount vs Caicedo debate...

1) Caicedo is currently the more fashionable, 'in-vogue' footballer.
2) Mount has achieved far more in his career, both domestically and internationally. He has won major trophies, including the Champions League.
3) Mount has represented a club and a national team playing at the highest level, competing for the biggest trophies, with high aspirations
4) Caicedo has largely played for 'underdogs' in Ecuador and Brighton.
5) United had the opportunity to sign Caicedo (or at least, it was widely reported that we did) for £3.5m two years ago. We decided not to sign him.
6) Caicedo has been deployed at RB at times this season for Brighton. It strikes me as odd that they would deploy a player some believe to be a world class CM at RB. It can happen, but it seems strange to me.
7) It strikes me that both are 'good' players in their own right, but that both can be 'excellent players', when given a specific role within a well-organised team.
8) It remains to be see how Caicedo can transition from playing a specific role in a side with midtable aspirations to playing a role in a side challenging for trophies, a scenario in which he'll face more low-blocks and middle blocks, and will need to be able to play incisive, progressive passes.
9) We should have fewer doubts about Mount's ability to perform his specific role at the highest level - because he already has.
10) Overall, despite Caicedo being more fashionable, I think Mount is clearly the safer option. Yes, we know that Mount isn't a world beating superstar, but we know he is a very effective cog in a good machine. There's some probability Caicedo could have a higher ceiling, but a somewhat larger probability he struggles and/or fades into relative mediocrity at a bigger club.
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1) Agreed.
2) Chelsea and England in general are better than Brighton and Ecuador. Not a surprise.
3) See above.
4) Yep...are we still doing this?
5) What a great decision that was.
6) Many top class players have played in positions that differ from their 'natural' position. I remember Roy Keane playing at right back.
7) Caicedo is an excellent player in his own right.
8) Won't be a problem at all. Many top players have come from lower/middling clubs and gone on to have great success at top clubs. Also, Brighton didn't have midtable aspirations last season. They were very dominant in terms of possession and faced plenty of sides who set up with low and mid blocks.
9) Possibly. Not really the right attitude though is it? 18 year old Ronaldo hadn't performed his role at the highest level prior to us signing him.
10) Both are capable of playing here. No need to discredit Caicedo. He will not be fading into mediocrity.
 
Newtonius said:
Recruitment hasn't improved at all has it, this is like last year when we went from FDJ to Casemiro. Both great players but entirely different in style and purpose.
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I would be more concerned by this than the Casemiro/FDJ situation as last year we were at the very beginning of a rebuild so could afford to be more flexible about the shape of team we decided to move towards. This year there are more fixed pieces, so there should be less flexibility in terms of the type of players needed around them.
 
I really rate this guy and think he'd be great for us.

However, I just don't think we'll get him. Need Casemiro to give him a call perhaps seeing as Caicedo claims to be a United and Madrid fan.
 
Although not as creative as Mount, Caicedo would be perfect playing higher up especially when it comes to pressing and winning the ball back high up like Fred was doing this season.

Absolutely pointless thinking about it though because Caicedo is going Chelsea.
 
Caicedo v Mount ?
We're looking at two entirely different roles to be filled in the squad.
Whether we get Mount or not, the CDM vacancy desperately needs to be filled ASAP.
It's an area where we've been very weak, for quite a number of seasons, until we acquired Casemiro last year; but he alone isn't the solution, as we saw towards the end of the season.
Good midfield teams have just walked straight through our middle and Casemiro has had to resort to desperate lunges and tackles, if he hasn't been left standing as our midfield has been overrun.
There's a need for a player that can both play alongside Casemiro and to also provide cover for him, for injuries etc.
Almost everyone agrees, that have no alternatives of the required standard in the current squad.
Caicedo would be one young player who could fit the bill, but Lentwood makes perfectly sound cautionary points (on the previous page) and Caicedo would be a huge gamble at the price being asked.


.
 
Newtonius said:
Recruitment hasn't improved at all has it, this is like last year when we went from FDJ to Casemiro. Both great players but entirely different in style and purpose.
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It is a weird change of profile. Mount never made sense to me though. I think the idea might have been to play Bruno as the slightly deeper of the 2 but with both realistically having licence to get forward. Caicedo is a much more typical 8 imo. I much prefer him, but ETH did seem to favour this sort of 2 cams system with Eriksen (imo it didn't work that well due to Eriksen's poor defensive ability and lack of energy). I can see why he might want to try something similar with Mount who is much more energetic and better at pressing, but Mount isn't as creative as Eriksen and would leave us exposed against better teams imo. I'd like to avoid more of these 6-3, 7-0 hammerings we were regularly getting against better teams last season, which was largely down to our lightweight midfield imo. Caicedo is a very good progressive passer, he just needs to develop his carrying of the ball a bit. He's not as creative as an Eriksen or even a Mount, but Bruno creates more than any player in Europe outside De Bruyne so that's not our main problem imo. Our goals should naturally improve with a proper striker.
 
We need to be scouting who the next Caceido is. We had the chance to bring in Caceido himself but we went in for Casemiro, a wise move, and Moises will not come to the promised land. He’ll have to settle for Boehly’s dumpster fire.
 
lex talionis said:
We need to be scouting who the next Caceido is. We had the chance to bring in Caceido himself but we went in for Casemiro, a wise move, and Moises will not come to the promised land. He’ll have to settle for Boehly’s dumpster fire.
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We scouted Caicedo in South America and didn't sign him.
 
lex talionis said:
We need to be scouting who the next Caceido is. We had the chance to bring in Caceido himself but we went in for Casemiro, a wise move, and Moises will not come to the promised land. He’ll have to settle for Boehly’s dumpster fire.
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We scouted Caicedo when he was in South America but as per usual we never actually sign any of these talented young players that our scouts identify. Gabriel Jesus, Kim Min Jae and Julian Alvarez are other examples of young players we were scouting before they made their big moves, but we never actually made the move. Not sure why this happens so regularly. Probably because our ownership care more about big commercial names instead of actually improving the quality of the team in the long-term. The state they've let our academy fall into is further proof of this, with even the likes of Crystal Palace having passed us.
 
Fortitude said:
Mount isn't a masterful ball progressive. I think people are going to be let down if that's what they expect of him. He has his qualities for sure, but if people expect FDJ's mini-me, they're going to be disappointed.

Mount in addition to Caicedo would be a very different discussion, I think. One I don't think would be met with such negativity as Mount by himself.
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Mount would be played further up the pitch than FDJ, sure, and is not really comparable but I was persuaded by the suggestions that he would have been played as one of two no8s ahead of Case. Caicedo doesn’t fit that role and if we buy him, it’s probably as a utility player with a view to him settling at no6 in a year or two.

Hannibal is more the type of player we need in the Eriksen role. “Huge ask” and “not ready” is what I always hear, along with a dose of “won’t make it here” but I think he’ll prove us all wrong (I’ll shed a little tear if not!).
 
Lentwood said:
Few points on the Mount vs Caicedo debate...

1) Caicedo is currently the more fashionable, 'in-vogue' footballer.
2) Mount has achieved far more in his career, both domestically and internationally. He has won major trophies, including the Champions League.
3) Mount has represented a club and a national team playing at the highest level, competing for the biggest trophies, with high aspirations
4) Caicedo has largely played for 'underdogs' in Ecuador and Brighton.
5) United had the opportunity to sign Caicedo (or at least, it was widely reported that we did) for £3.5m two years ago. We decided not to sign him.
6) Caicedo has been deployed at RB at times this season for Brighton. It strikes me as odd that they would deploy a player some believe to be a world class CM at RB. It can happen, but it seems strange to me.
7) It strikes me that both are 'good' players in their own right, but that both can be 'excellent players', when given a specific role within a well-organised team.
8) It remains to be see how Caicedo can transition from playing a specific role in a side with midtable aspirations to playing a role in a side challenging for trophies, a scenario in which he'll face more low-blocks and middle blocks, and will need to be able to play incisive, progressive passes.
9) We should have fewer doubts about Mount's ability to perform his specific role at the highest level - because he already has.
10) Overall, despite Caicedo being more fashionable, I think Mount is clearly the safer option. Yes, we know that Mount isn't a world beating superstar, but we know he is a very effective cog in a good machine. There's some probability Caicedo could have a higher ceiling, but a somewhat larger probability he struggles and/or fades into relative mediocrity at a bigger club.
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This is great but imagine Caicedo played for Chelsea and Mount for Brighton. Is Mount still the better player? Caicedo would have won more.
 
Dazzmondo said:
We scouted Caicedo when he was in South America but as per usual we never actually sign any of these talented young players that our scouts identify. Gabriel Jesus, Kim Min Jae and Julian Alvarez are other examples of young players we were scouting before they made their big moves, but we never actually made the move. Not sure why this happens so regularly. Probably because our ownership care more about big commercial names instead of actually improving the quality of the team in the long-term. The state they've let our academy fall into is further proof of this, with even the likes of Crystal Palace having passed us.
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The transfer power seems to lean more towards the manager’s hands than the scouts, and they have all seemed to be less patient and want instant results. The last time the scouts were trusted was with Amad and Pellestri, Solskjaer had a hissy fit because he didn’t get Sancho and refused to play them, I wouldn’t be surprised if the club passed on the scout suggestions for the likes of Alvarez, Enzo and Caicedo because of this reaction from Solskjaer.
 
crossy1686 said:
This is great but imagine Caicedo played for Chelsea and Mount for Brighton. Is Mount still the better player? Caicedo would have won more.
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We don't know that to be fair, Mount was instrumental in that successful Chelsea period, we don't know if things go the same way. I wager that they don't, and/or Caicedo doesn't even get on the pitch nearly as much as our young brave lion Mount.
 
luke511 said:
The transfer power seems to lean more towards the manager’s hands than the scouts, and they have all seemed to be less patient and want instant results. The last time the scouts were trusted was with Amad and Pellestri, Solskjaer had a hissy fit because he didn’t get Sancho and refused to play them, I wouldn’t be surprised if the club passed on the suggestions for the likes of Caicedo and Alvarez because of this reaction from Solskjaer.
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Another good point. Have to say, I like a lot about ETH, but I certainly wouldn't say he has shown much trust in the youth (Garnacho the exception but even he hasn't started as much as he probably should have), so if it is a case of us going for the manager's choices alone then I don't see this changing anytime soon.
 
Newtonius said:
Recruitment hasn't improved at all has it, this is like last year when we went from FDJ to Casemiro. Both great players but entirely different in style and purpose.
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Who says we have to be rigid in who we buy?Ten Hag obviously thinks a midfield with Mount is his ideal platform while the alternative to that isn’t as good as the way we would play with Caicedo
 
GaryLifo said:
I really rate this guy and think he'd be great for us.

However, I just don't think we'll get him. Need Casemiro to give him a call perhaps seeing as Caicedo claims to be a United and Madrid fan.
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Yeah this one is a definite negotiation tactic
 
GaryLifo said:
I really rate this guy and think he'd be great for us.

However, I just don't think we'll get him. Need Casemiro to give him a call perhaps seeing as Caicedo claims to be a United and Madrid fan.
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The player isn't the issue, I'm pretty sure he'd pick United over Chelsea, the issue is going to be money both transfer fee and wages
 
croadyman said:
Not this again,we didn't sign him due to complicated ownership. Brighton had a significant advantage as done that kind of deal before
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Mate that's just simplistic view of the situation while having lot of truth in it , most probable case is that we simply didn't feel Caicedo was worth all hassle at that moment in time and fact is he didn't exactly light up straight away at Brighton either but he was given time to find his feet which he might not have gotten here at United .

Hindsight is always 20-20 .
 
Cassidy said:
No idea what he thinks given he is restricted by the budget. Or do you think he really wants to keep DDG instead of getting a new keeper?
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We're reportedly working on signing Onana though?
Cassidy said:
You don’t know much about the player, he played as an 8 when Bissouma was there the previous season and was a goal threat.
He can operate in both positions and his best position is probably box to box as an 8
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You mean the season he played a grand total of 8 games? 3 of them as DM? Yeah, not a great sample size
 
Halftrack said:
We're reportedly working on signing Onana though?
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Yes DDG is yet to sign the deal he's been offered, its well reported now ETH wants him to sign it so he can spend elsewhere
 
Cassidy said:
Yes DDG is yet to sign the deal he's been offered, its well reported now ETH wants him to sign it so he can spend elsewhere
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From Highly credible journalists from likes of Daily Mirror who definitely don't have history of making stuff up .
 
gajender said:
From Highly credible sources from likes of Daily Mirror I still have my doubts .
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Well he was not released so quite obviously we want him to sign, also ETH repeated this end of season more than once
 
Cassidy said:
Well he was not released so quite obviously we want him to sign, also ETH repeated this end of season more than once
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Yeah that part is worrying and suggests we only go for a backup which is underwhelming
 
If we just got this guy a keeper and hojlund I'd be happy going into the new season,caicedo is such a talented player for all the we lack creativity in midfield comments we also lack any semblance of control when cas is having an off game or suspended.
 
massey said:
If we just got this guy a keeper and hojlund I'd be happy going into the new season,caicedo is such a talented player for all the we lack creativity in midfield comments we also lack any semblance of control when cas is having an off game or suspended.
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Depends who keeper is but looks to me like Caicedo will join Chelsea in the end
 
croadyman said:
Depends who keeper is but looks to me like Caicedo will join Chelsea in the end
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Very much a possible outcome I just hope we don't in some way help fund it by overpaying for a player like mount when we still need some steel In midfield and will again be relying on mcfred as back up which hasn't worked for about 4 years now.
 
massey said:
Very much a possible outcome I just hope we don't in some way help fund it by overpaying for a player like mount when we still need some steel In midfield and will again be relying on mcfred as back up which hasn't worked for about 4 years now.
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Yeah that's why we need both the profile of a Mount AND Caicedo but budget won't allow
 
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