so he's going for over 200 million?
Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea
- Thread starter davidmichael
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so he's going for over 200 million?
Maybe not 200m but its going to be higher than Enzo Fernandez went for I can tell you that. That transfer has set the market for young midfielders. Best time to get midfielders now is when they are still relatively unknown.
For 10 seasons cf. Trossard 2 seasons, absolute steal.
Chelsea v Brighton next
So 80 -90m for this guy, another 100m for a striker, 20m for a right back, 20m for a GK ?
That's 230- 250m.
We might get some decent money for Maguire and AWB . 60-70m.
160-180 net spend ? Not sure.
That's 230- 250m.
We might get some decent money for Maguire and AWB . 60-70m.
160-180 net spend ? Not sure.
€70 is a steal for any kid.
No it won’t.
Caicedo will go for a lot of money if he leaves and Enzo's fee to Chelsea will be seen as a benchmark. But I very much doubt it would be a world record, he won't come close to Neymar or Mbappe when they went to PSG.
Also Mwepu can hardly be described as a defensive midfielder, maybe box to box at a stretch, but he was definitely in the more attacking mold and often played alongside Bissouma who took on the more defensive role.
Never forget, could have been ours for 5 million quids.
I think it was dollars.
But tbf we did not then or maybe still dont have the knowledge base to deal with such complex transfers like the one out of Ecuador. Brighton I am sure went through the learning curve of dealing with multi-party player ownerships from the past.
I’m not having a dig as I have thought this many time myself, but I find that a ridiculous thought that a club the size of united, who have most likely dealt with complex transfers in the past, pulled out because they didn’t understand 3rd party
Even if they didn’t have the knowledge, there is such a thing as hiring consultants who do have this knowledge if they really did want the transfer to go through.
I think there’s a bit more to it and either united just didn’t think he was worth it
I’ve covered this transfer extensively on here, to be fair. Check my posts. The secret ingredient in getting this deal done was a prior transfer Brighton did when signing Billy Arce.
I’ve checked what you’ve said and thanks for the info, and I’m not denying the fact the seagulls had prior knowledge would have helped. But the fact you had an ‘in’ with the agency due to a prior dealing should have no relevance to United not being able to do get a deal done if they really wanted the player. I’m sure they could have contracted specialists to work on this transfer with knowledge in these types of dealings to make it work, my question is why didn’t they?
I think we can all agree that United's transfer team under Woodward and Judge didn't exactly set the world alight.
Brighton were willing to take the risk with a complicated transfer and no guarantee that Caicedo's clear potential would be realised. That he has developed into the player he is today is down to the pathway Brighton put in place, had he gone to United he wouldn't have had the same chances and maybe wouldn't have developed so well.
No doubting he might not have developed so well at United given how well you've managed him. From a United not-signing perspective, I think perhaps that is the best answer - inadequate / incompetent under Woodward
Buying a Caicedo/Bellingham is not an option for a team like Utd. We are not even nearly at the level of functionality and playing consistently to a level that would allow us to integrate players effectively and see them achieve their potential.
look at Odegaard at Real - he has needed to move on to start showing his full potential. I think Amad is another example. He would have been much further along if he had spent the last 2 years playing first team football consistently in Portugal or Holland.
For now we either need to accept that we will pay through the nose for developed young talent like Caicedo or really develop some proper loan channels and relationships with teams in other leagues. We could then buy these young up and coming talents and offer them both a shot at development and a tangible route into the Utd first team.
look at Odegaard at Real - he has needed to move on to start showing his full potential. I think Amad is another example. He would have been much further along if he had spent the last 2 years playing first team football consistently in Portugal or Holland.
For now we either need to accept that we will pay through the nose for developed young talent like Caicedo or really develop some proper loan channels and relationships with teams in other leagues. We could then buy these young up and coming talents and offer them both a shot at development and a tangible route into the Utd first team.
Yeah think I would too
I think clubs are playing catch up a bit; the possibilities in African, Asian and South American football are enormous.
Yeah we just got put off by the complicated ownership and Brighton were prepared to do what it takes to sort that
The more I think about it the more I think it fits if no De Jong.
Bruno/Eriksen-Casemiro-Caicedo would put a ton on the Bruno/Eriksen figure to create, but they can do that, and we'd be very solid defensively.
Bruno-Caicedo-Eriksen would still be good if Casemiro misses a game. We'd have 4 guys for 3 spots, then let's say McTominay leaves, Fred stays and then the 6th guy is either Sabitzer or we sign a young player for cheaper from the Eredivisie or something, or a guy in his late 20s who comes on the market, maybe even Kamada on a free.
Bruno/Eriksen-Casemiro-Caicedo would put a ton on the Bruno/Eriksen figure to create, but they can do that, and we'd be very solid defensively.
Bruno-Caicedo-Eriksen would still be good if Casemiro misses a game. We'd have 4 guys for 3 spots, then let's say McTominay leaves, Fred stays and then the 6th guy is either Sabitzer or we sign a young player for cheaper from the Eredivisie or something, or a guy in his late 20s who comes on the market, maybe even Kamada on a free.
Yeah we definitely need a third creative outlet to supplement Bruno & Eriksen
Maybe change that to WHEN no De Jong
Tangent
The Brighton boss then laughed and looked at Paul Barber, the club's chief executive, who smiled in agreement and patted the Italian on the shoulder, suggesting that Mitoma will not be leaving anytime soon. Speaking on The Beautiful Game podcast last month, Barber admitted that he's ready to fend off offers for the £50million-rated winger in the summer.
"Obviously he's [Mitoma] another player that will be in the spotlight in the next transfer window," said the Brighton chief. "We're ready for that and we understand that, we just hope he can have a great second half of the season. We're very fortunate from a financial point of view that we're not a club that has to sell players to survive."
Arsenal's £70million Bid For Moises Caicedo Was Good Enough For Half Of The Player - Paul Barber
The Brighton boss then laughed and looked at Paul Barber, the club's chief executive, who smiled in agreement and patted the Italian on the shoulder, suggesting that Mitoma will not be leaving anytime soon. Speaking on The Beautiful Game podcast last month, Barber admitted that he's ready to fend off offers for the £50million-rated winger in the summer.
"Obviously he's [Mitoma] another player that will be in the spotlight in the next transfer window," said the Brighton chief. "We're ready for that and we understand that, we just hope he can have a great second half of the season. We're very fortunate from a financial point of view that we're not a club that has to sell players to survive."
Arsenal's £70million Bid For Moises Caicedo Was Good Enough For Half Of The Player - Paul Barber
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Offers will be turned down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_association_football_transfers
Nobody is paying 140m for a dm.
£70m and a replacement in place and he will leave. It's too big a return to ignore for Brighton, £65m for 18 months this summer is it?.
Enzo was a desperate signing and Chelsea rightfully got mugged right off. Neymar was brought by a state owned club. Not a chance if MC going for a silly fee.
Brighton and Hove FC have an annual wage bill of £43m atm. £70m pays the wages and puts some in the kitty for the future transfers.
The block to Moises could be MacAlistair as a World Cup winner. He could be out of there first and this would be an obstruction to MC leaving to keep the club team stable.
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If anyone does, they deserve all the shit they eventually get.
Maybe unpopular opinion, I don't think Caicedo is that good a player to break the record fee.
Dunno what to make of this rumor, for a team that presumably aspires to consistently control and dominate possession against the best of 'em in the near future? He is a good central midfielder — quick-thinking, technically sound for his principal role and a tenacious presence on the pitch, no doubt about that. Also quite young (so there's plenty of room for improvement in an abstract sense). But intuitively, not the profile we need alongside (in a pivot) or ahead (in a midfield three) of Casemiro (who is not a deep-lying playmaker and should not be expected to bear an overwhelming architectural workload). Moisés does much of his best work out of possession, and as a team that doesn't have two highly influential fullbacks for both flanks (in possession, as playmakers who can assume a lot of the creative responsibilities), United must train their sights on central midfielders who are sumptuously inventive and progressive in more advanced areas, can set the passing rhythm of the game on all three levels and function as secondary attackers at the boundary of the final third (while also being industrious and disciplined in terms of positioning, pressing, counter-pressing et cetera).
Simply put, his suitability to this United team (and the expected Starting XI with Casemiro (who is the designed defensive midfielder)) is not borne out by eye test or data. Right player (potentially), but wrong time. Some of those statistical figures are a function of Caicedo's nominal role right now, but he will probably never reach an elite level in the key aspects that have been previously outlined. Will cost an arm and a leg, too — which comes with the territory. That type of investment should be reserved for players who are pristine fits, and will push the envelope alongside the in situ reference points. If we were signing him from Independiente del Valle for a relative bargain (as an understudy to Casemiro, leaning on his pedagogic skills?) the outlook would obviously be very different.
P.S. Most of this is just theoretical grumbling (with the projection of my own biases and notions of how the team should be constructed (for the purposes of playing expansive, champagne football), which don't really matter at the end of the day); maybe he will take great strides in terms of his on-the-ball play and prove to be a real difference maker. And while there are loosely defined templates for positional play, success at the highest levels of the contemporary club game and things of that nature, they're not prerequisites and there's more than one way to skin the cat — you don't need silky midfield playmakers to engineer an effective collective, in an absolute, dogmatic manner.
P.S. Most of this is just theoretical grumbling (with the projection of my own biases and notions of how the team should be constructed (for the purposes of playing expansive, champagne football), which don't really matter at the end of the day); maybe he will take great strides in terms of his on-the-ball play and prove to be a real difference maker. And while there are loosely defined templates for positional play, success at the highest levels of the contemporary club game and things of that nature, they're not prerequisites and there's more than one way to skin the cat — you don't need silky midfield playmakers to engineer an effective collective, in an absolute, dogmatic manner.
I think if we did buy him it would be with a view to playing him as the single pivot in the mid to long-term. He has good technical, tactical and defensive attributes where I can see him being utilised as the single pivot with two creative #8s either side of him in a 3 man midfield. He's very good at progressing play in the first phase against aggressive pressure and is probably the best DM in the league at controlling large space against fast opposition transitions. But I think anything over £70m would be overpaying for him and I don't think I'd pay over £70m for any player in the league. There's always cheaper alternatives and i'm a firm believer in taking chances on potential, before that potential is realised at another club.
There's players like Ugarte and Florentino Luis at SCP and Benfica who we could potentially target. And I do think we should bring in a back up holding midfielder to rotate with Casemiro at the very least.
There's players like Ugarte and Florentino Luis at SCP and Benfica who we could potentially target. And I do think we should bring in a back up holding midfielder to rotate with Casemiro at the very least.
Chelsea v BHA
De Zerbi then held a junior press conference where one of the questions was what will be his starting line-up for the Premier League clash at Stamford Bridge. The Italian surprised many in the room by instantly naming six players but stopped short of giving away his full team. Lewis Dunk, Pervis Estupian, Moises Caicedo, Alexis Mac Alister, Kaoru Mitoma and Solly March have all been outstanding this season and named by the coach, who will be banned from the touchline following his latest red card.
"Dunk, Mac Allister, Caicedo, Mitoma, March, Estupinan.” said De Zerbi.
He looks more like a Casemiro alternative in the long run, at least to my eyes. I don't see an inventive player or a primary skillset centered around his passing or final third play. I'm not saying they're bad but I don't look at him and see a stand out there. I just see decent. Is he really going to be a world beater box to box or in the build up for Man United? It's not Brighton after all.
Where I see a potentially top player is his physicality, age, defensive attributes. I think in the long run he'd be a great defensive option, if he could learn some of the tactical side from a guy like Casemiro. Remember, at United a DM doesn't just sit there doing nothing until required to defend. They still need energy, still need to be good ball players - we've seen Casemiro go forward many times too. There's plenty to the role that would engage Caicedo's attributes.
But if we were to buy him now, you could certainly see a role for him just ahead of Casemiro too. Maybe that would even suit him better presently, to have that experience behind him instead of having such a role of responsibility. But he could be groomed for that defensive role.
Where I see a potentially top player is his physicality, age, defensive attributes. I think in the long run he'd be a great defensive option, if he could learn some of the tactical side from a guy like Casemiro. Remember, at United a DM doesn't just sit there doing nothing until required to defend. They still need energy, still need to be good ball players - we've seen Casemiro go forward many times too. There's plenty to the role that would engage Caicedo's attributes.
But if we were to buy him now, you could certainly see a role for him just ahead of Casemiro too. Maybe that would even suit him better presently, to have that experience behind him instead of having such a role of responsibility. But he could be groomed for that defensive role.
He would have been a great buy on the cheap, but having seen him playing a lot in the Prem now he's not a 'near record fee' type player. At all. Is he better than McFred? Of course he is. But there are countless midfielders around Europe that can claim that achievement.
Need to be finding players outside of the spotlight. Given how much work the squad needs doing, no single player should be over 50m imo, and that's for a CF, the most expensive position. We need to signal we're done being rinsed*
*unless we get bought by Qatar at which point f*ck it, give them literal piles of gold. I could care less as I'll have stopped following.
Need to be finding players outside of the spotlight. Given how much work the squad needs doing, no single player should be over 50m imo, and that's for a CF, the most expensive position. We need to signal we're done being rinsed*
*unless we get bought by Qatar at which point f*ck it, give them literal piles of gold. I could care less as I'll have stopped following.
Ideal scenario would be PSG buying him and selling him to us after few years.
I think the odds of us going for him or Rice have increased with:
1) Bruno playing well in a deeper role
2) Sabitzer doing better as a 10 than an 8
3) McTominay rumoured to want out for more playing time.
Attacking mids: Bruno-Eriksen-Sabitzer-Fred
Defending mids: Casemiro-Caicedo
and Caicedo gets time as an 8, especially when we're ahead with 20-30 minutes to go. Most games it's Bruno-X-Casemiro and Caicedo and Eriksen are fighting for the 8 shirt, minutes for Sabitzer and then less for Fred, maybe he even leaves, but I think we'd want 6 guys for the 3 spots and the youth aren't quite ready, though if Fred wants to leave for a bigger role elsewhere or we get a good offer maybe he goes and we sign someone cheap or a young player.
1) Bruno playing well in a deeper role
2) Sabitzer doing better as a 10 than an 8
3) McTominay rumoured to want out for more playing time.
Attacking mids: Bruno-Eriksen-Sabitzer-Fred
Defending mids: Casemiro-Caicedo
and Caicedo gets time as an 8, especially when we're ahead with 20-30 minutes to go. Most games it's Bruno-X-Casemiro and Caicedo and Eriksen are fighting for the 8 shirt, minutes for Sabitzer and then less for Fred, maybe he even leaves, but I think we'd want 6 guys for the 3 spots and the youth aren't quite ready, though if Fred wants to leave for a bigger role elsewhere or we get a good offer maybe he goes and we sign someone cheap or a young player.
Or maybe it was just one Bebe too far?
Such an uninspiring list of central midfielders for a club who aspire for bigger things. Signing Sabitzer permanently would be a waste resources and a midfielder spot, and Caicedo being our only central midfield signing would do very little to alleviate the biggest problem our midfield has — ball retention and buildup play in the first and second thirds of the field.
I think @Invictus is on the money there with their breakdown
Brighton don't have a problem in the build up phase and i'm sure the statistics would also point to players like Caicedo being superior to our midfielders when it comes to passing through both the defensive and middle thirds, and maintaining a high level of pass accuracy. If Brighton can impose their game in the current EPL, then why do United struggle to progress play and impose their game against teams who are adept at pressing high?
Arsenal are challenging for the league with Partey as the holding midfielder and Xhaka/Odegaard either side. The Liverpool midfield was derided by many but that midfield was actually good at helping the team impose their game on the opponent with and without the ball and won the league and champions league.
Of course we need to add better midfielders on the ball but we also need a better keeper on the ball and a better RB on the ball. Because the teams who have shown a high level when it comes to imposing their game on the opposition, are those teams who progress play collectively starting with their keeper.
And unless the club is sold, I don't see us challenging for the league any time soon. And if there is a new owner in place before the summer window opens, and he or she shows ambition, then I feel we need 5 signings to be brought in with a striker and four other players to raise the level significantly in the first phase of the build up.
GK, RB, DM, CM along with a striker.
Arsenal are challenging for the league with Partey as the holding midfielder and Xhaka/Odegaard either side. The Liverpool midfield was derided by many but that midfield was actually good at helping the team impose their game on the opponent with and without the ball and won the league and champions league.
Of course we need to add better midfielders on the ball but we also need a better keeper on the ball and a better RB on the ball. Because the teams who have shown a high level when it comes to imposing their game on the opposition, are those teams who progress play collectively starting with their keeper.
And unless the club is sold, I don't see us challenging for the league any time soon. And if there is a new owner in place before the summer window opens, and he or she shows ambition, then I feel we need 5 signings to be brought in with a striker and four other players to raise the level significantly in the first phase of the build up.
GK, RB, DM, CM along with a striker.
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BHA have a wage bill nearer £115 million. Profit roughly equals transfer fee gains. I see the point though. Spare capital could be £200 million?
The tweet below basically backs up my post about Brighton being a superb team at imposing their game on the opponent , which is very evident when you watch them play. And their midfield three is Caicedo, Gross and Mac Allister. But it's not just the midfield that helps exert, zonal and positional control, but also the rest of the players in the first phase of the build up starting with Jason Steele the goalkeeper.
I think this is very harsh and highly speculative. He's 21 and is playing his first full season in one if not the toughest league in all of football. If anything, I'd say his stats suggest that he is doing very well in areas that you outline him not doing well enough in, especially considering his age.
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