They whitewash it now with some incredible mental gymnastics.
Michael Carrick - Middlesbrough Manager
- Thread starter Stobzilla
- Start date
Just do the opposite of whatever Paul Ince says and chances are that you'll do alright. Fecking egomaniac.
It was ridiculous. No one had a clue about their coaching quality or how much input they had into tactics, training plans etc. There just seemed to be childish tantrums attacking anyone associated with the club for the whole of last season. It was disgraceful.
That’s always the case. Just look at the ridiculousness surrounding Rashford. We had threads like “Rashford: New contract or sell?”. People writing him off saying he’ll never be good enough. Didn’t have the ability to improve. Etc etc. And again, those of us who preached some patience and common sense were berated. I’ve lost track of the amount of threads about some of our players and staff that are too stupid to contemplate. And it’s not just ridiculous takes. It’s the vitriol that comes with it.
You’d think history would’ve taught some people not to be so knee jerk, but that’s a forlorn hope. Antony is the current target. And he may or may not turn out to be a great player. Point is, no one really knows. But we’ve got plenty of experts to tell us how worried we should be, and that he’ll never be good enough. At 22, after barely just over half a season in a new country and the toughest league in the world. Garnacho will be next, as soon as he has an extended blip in form; which is inevitable.
Nathan Shelley is the man for them!
If Boro do come to the PL with Carrick next season, hope we can get some loanees to go there. He looks like a proper coach
re: the bolded part,
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by quite a number of caf postets who seem to find the middle ground with Antony,
being both somewhat worried/skeptical but also very patient because he's so young and new to this league.
But yeah, what you're talking about is very common on the Caf and is quite annoying.
Haaland went from being the best striker ever to "a crap dribbler who doesn't fit City" in a matter of weeks.
What a job he’s doing at Middlesbrough. At this rate of success he could find himself in a Premier League job with or without Boro.
This is a knee jerk from the Caf that seems to be spot on, even the city men are saying it
This is a knee jerk from the Caf that seems to be spot on, even the city men are saying it
All football fans are fickle as feck, you and me included
They will sing a different tune once he hits another purple patch.
Unfortunately, I expected no less, it's what happens on here on a weekly basis now.
He left United because he wanted to and I think its the correct decision. If anyone thinks theyre good enough to be the manager, they have to try it at some point. Who knows they might be the new Jose, Ten Hag, Pep in several years. Imagine how miserable he would be if he stayed as an assistant to Rangnick.
If Gerrard or Lampard were doing this…
But he had a point. They had no experience and so were unable to provide contraopinions to Ole. Now that he's worked in management at a decent level (and so successfully), I'd happily take him as assistant manager (though he may very well decline, as is his right). He may already then have been a better manager than Shteve McLaren, but id rather have Shteve as assistant.
I remember someone mentioning our coaches (Carrick, McKenna) had their badges, so obviously weren't the unqualified incompetents they were being made out as, and one particular poster found that notion so ridiculous that they spent the next couple of months making sarcastic "but they have their badges!" quips.
He’s doing a top job. He’s definitely showing up lampard and Gerrard. He doesn’t get enough praise though.
Bit premature, they also did good jobs at lower level clubs before being found out in the PL.
The caf summed up.
Carrick/McKenna lead training for years and results aren’t good enough = coaches not good enough.
Carrick/McKenna take lower league jobs and do well = coaches were good enough.
1st example can make sense, Ole shafted then in my opinion but they were leading training so what we saw on the pitch was Carrick/McKenna coaching.
2nd example is classic caf ignoring context. Don’t think anyone needs to have it explained to them it’s possible you aren’t good enough for United but could be good enough for a team lower down the division.
Let them go and prove themselves and then, in an ideal world, someone like Carrick can get a big job on merit in the future but not any time soon.
Carrick/McKenna lead training for years and results aren’t good enough = coaches not good enough.
Carrick/McKenna take lower league jobs and do well = coaches were good enough.
1st example can make sense, Ole shafted then in my opinion but they were leading training so what we saw on the pitch was Carrick/McKenna coaching.
2nd example is classic caf ignoring context. Don’t think anyone needs to have it explained to them it’s possible you aren’t good enough for United but could be good enough for a team lower down the division.
Let them go and prove themselves and then, in an ideal world, someone like Carrick can get a big job on merit in the future but not any time soon.
Yep. I think most sensible posters didn't really have an issue with Carrick or McKenna themselves, but moreso that the two of them alongside Ole were all utterly inexperienced at management and coaching at the top level. Put one of Carrick or McKenna in alongside a more experienced and proven management set-up and it may likely have been a very different result. Hell, even Ole as manager with highly experienced and proven coaching team under him would likely have done better.
my guess is he's too loyal a bloke to quite Middlesbrough even if approached
I don’t think we can be certain of this. There were rumours that Ole and Phelan would interfere and give instructions to players prior to games which went against what the coaches had been doing with them.
We certainly looked a far better organised side from the very start of Carrick’s brief caretaker spell.
Lampard didn't, and Gerrard did well at Rangers to be fair.
Lampard finished 5th with Derby, but the season before that with the previous manager, they also finished 5th.
Weren't there rumours that Gerrard was pretty much a glorified mascot at Rangers and that his assistant basically did his job for him? It would explain why Rangers collapsed under Stevie after the assistant left for QPR and why he did such a poor job at Villa.
I didn't know that, not sure how true that is though?
I hope Carrick doesn’t go to Chelsea after they sack Potter. He’d gave them purring in the top four in no time.
Hardly overwhelmed. Lampard didn’t do an awful lot at derby. And anyone can manage Rangers. Gerrard got found out the most when he jumped to the prem… he’s ruined his chances of taking over the scousers.
Thank God you're not his advisor.
If a PL club comes in for him at any point he'll be off, and he should.
Managerial careers are rarely linear like you suggest and many people on here think. Next season he could do everything right and Middlesbrough could end up midtable Championship and that's the end of his chapter.
Sure, if he wants to have the same flat lining career trajectories of his fellow England midfielders.
If he keeps going with Middlesborough as they have been he could be a Premier League manager next season
There are no guarantees of success or money with any path. Look at Potter.
When a big club calls, pick it. Get paid. And try your best. If you fail, you can always go back to the Championship. You may not be back in the PL again.
So? They have still managed in the PL which is more than most managers can say they've done.
Lampard "failed" at Chelsea and was given another try by Everton. Gerrard hasn't put his hat in the ring yet (neither has Ole) and we've seen worse managers than them get second and third chances so I'm not sure why you are so certain on their unemployability.
We aren't club chairmen, and we have no idea on what they look at when making decisions on hiring. Which is why, again, the idea of someone turning down a PL offer to "build his body of work" (something that may not even work out, given the number of Championship managers who have never managed in the PL) is insane advice.
Carrick could turn down an offer from a PL club to focus on Middlesbrough, and carry them to 4th, and then maybe move to Spurs. Or he could turn down an offer from a PL club, miss out on promotion, finish 11th with them the following season, and get ignored for future opportunities. One is more likely.
The thing that stands out for me is that their weighting of their passes is fantastic.
Gerrard seemed to become totally bereft when his assistant left him.
Derby certainly played much more attractive football under Lampard than they had with Gary Rowett. Their fans were sorry to see him go. Whether he’d have developed as a manager had he stayed there longer is open to debate; he doesn’t seem remotely capable of learning from his mistakes, so I rather doubt it.
As a non-United fan I was quite relieved to see Carrick and McKenna leave OT as I rated them both and were way too good to be working under Solskjaer.
I expect them both to be managing in PL sooner rather than later either together or separately and wouldn't rule out a return to you one day.
I expect them both to be managing in PL sooner rather than later either together or separately and wouldn't rule out a return to you one day.
How did you know their quality?
Not sure why you ask that question.
I like to observe how United, Liverpool, Chelsea etc operate and remember the positive reception McKenna got on here when he joined from Spurs (I think) and I attribute very few of United's recent struggles to him and Carrick. I saw them as knowledgeable and capable coaches hamstrung by Solskjaer, Woodward and others at the club at the time who should have been nowhere near the jobs they held.
Subsequent events seem to back that view up.
I think it's a bit simplistic to say "what we saw on the pitch was Carrick/McKenna coaching." That was always the narrative but it didn't seem to me a very nuanced view.
I don't see us talking about how fantastic Mitchell van der Gaag's coaching is. It comes down to the vision of the manager, ultimately. If he doesn't have one, doesn't lead, doesn't take his troops with him and inspire, it's very unlikely to matter what drills the coaches do. What we saw in the pitch was always far more about our overall ineptitude than a reflection of the coaching attributes of Carrick and McKenna. There was far too much else under question to really pinpoint something like that.
We don’t talk about VdG because ETH controls everything. The only reason we spoke so much about Carrick/McKenna is Ole hung them out to dry and even supposedly refused extra coaches when offered.
What hindered them from coaching at the club? It was literally their dayjob to do so?
That's exactly the point. Under ETH there is zero doubt about who is in control and who is responsible for the football we play. A manager that manages and has authority at the club. He wouldn't even think about outsourcing a footballing philosophy to a bloody coach on a fraction of the wage and who has a fraction of the responsibility, because he knows they're just an extension of him and ultimately that can't save him or bring us success. I'm fairly sure he would find it embarrassing to ever suggest that after poor performances what we saw is van der Gaag's or McLaren's coaching.
To then say what we see on the pitch is Carrick's coaching is in complete contradiction of this fairly obvious idea that managers are tasked with overall responsibility. What we saw is the mess Ole created. A bunch of players with little respect for the manager, no footballing direction, scattergun transfers that weren't good enough. That's why I'm kind of confused that you say it "makes sense" to suggest that what we saw was Carrick's coaching when actually what we saw was about way more than that.
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I get what you're saying and, of course, the vague direction came from Ole. I say vague because from what we can gather as fans he basically said build me a pressing attacking team and then they would figure out how to do that - not particularly fair on either of them. My point is simply that Ole confirmed they were in charge of training and so whatever we saw on the pitch was directly coming from their training - they had lots of issues to deal with and lots of egos but I think it's air to say from what we saw they weren't ready to be leading training for a club trying to compete it the CL. I do, however, hope they get there in their careers.
Already on West Ham's radar to replace Moyes according to the Times. West Ham fans seem open to the idea:
Seems consistent with Boro's loan manager Neil Maddison, who also works as a commentator on BBC Tees. Out of nowhere on Saturday, he said something along the line of "Our biggest challenge to promotion this season is to keep hold of Carrick from Premier League clubs", which caused some concerns among Boro fans on their boards and Twitter.
Personally, can't see why Carrick would rush into a relegation dogfight with West Ham right now when Boro is within reach of automatic promotion, or at least the favourite to win the play-offs. Seems a loyal honourable man who's settled up North.
Seems consistent with Boro's loan manager Neil Maddison, who also works as a commentator on BBC Tees. Out of nowhere on Saturday, he said something along the line of "Our biggest challenge to promotion this season is to keep hold of Carrick from Premier League clubs", which caused some concerns among Boro fans on their boards and Twitter.
Personally, can't see why Carrick would rush into a relegation dogfight with West Ham right now when Boro is within reach of automatic promotion, or at least the favourite to win the play-offs. Seems a loyal honourable man who's settled up North.