Yeah that list was a joke, Gazza
Just shows how insecure they are
Seriously he was an amazing player - probably the best we - meaning English - have produced since Bobby Charlton
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Seriously he was an amazing player - probably the best we - meaning English - have produced since Bobby Charlton
I watched them alot and I rated them very highly. Kaka and Figo both won world player of the year and that was before it became so commercial. Del Pierro was a sensational player and so was Gazza.
There have been times over the last decade when other players should have won - Schneider just one example.
fair enough if you rated them that high, though in my opinion Zico, Garrincha, Best, and Zidane were far superior players than them.
Sadly I was not old enough when Garrincha was in his prime. Only saw Best once in middle of the 70's. If you have seen them alot them I defer to your experience.
Zico - thought he was amazing - such a clean striker of the ball. Zidane floated around the pitch - just a fantastic touch and reader of the game.
well to be fair his prime was very short pretty much like Best.
I am not questioning your subjectivity. Its perfectly fine if you rate a player by a set of criteria you prefer, and disregarding the whole of their career/individual records/honours/achievements. But what i mean is, you've got to be keep things in balance, or at least show half objectiveness on other measurable things too (goals/assists/ballon D'ors/trophies/individual records/impact on winning/legacy etc). For example, even if someone honestly rate Phil Jones highly, and listed out a set of criteria/reasons why he think so, he still can't publicly stated he is a superior player than Beckenbauer. Even in his mind he 100% believe so, people cant really take him seriously if he says such things.
Someone said it here perfectly.
Fans of Ronaldo never put Messi in some stupidly ignorant lower level. Ronaldo fans recognise Messi as the most technically gifted football player of all time and put him either joint best of all time with Ronaldo or a step down as the second best of all time.
In my view that's because Ronaldo fans view him as the most successful football player of all time & reward his ability to try himself out in different teams whilst also playing against different teams. He plays the same way and to nearly the same success levels at every league or Cup competition except the world cup.
Now why do alot but not all fans of Messi go as far as to rate Ronaldo as nothing more than a player that is the same level as gascgoine, Figo or only at the 20 best players of all time?
It's simple. It's because ultimately their recognition and love for Messi as the greatest player of all time is largely influenced by the technical abilities of Lionel Messi. They watch his wonder dribbling goals against Getafe or Real Madrid & bow down to the lad as the best thing they have ever seen.
Messi is magic to these people and I can see why even as a C. Ronaldo fan. However, to some fans like us - magic & technical ability is great but just as people discuss about Messi giving up when things get tough in a game like against colimbia or Pool - we value Ronald's hard work to improve from a young age rather than something he was literally born with, his desire to test him self in different Leagues & different teams, his own technical abilities coupled with his efficiency, strength and pure power, the lads mental strength of never giving up that isn't seen in Messi, his own wonder goals and his absolute ability to be a success at nearly every team or tournament.
Magic is important to some who view Messi as an Alien out of this world who played consistently his way with his style non stop for Barcelona ever since he was introduced.
But to some - watching a pure human who started with flaws go on to a near level of pure perfectionism, a strong mentality and still tested him self in different Leagues and environments as a way of him always improving rather than just purely resting on his laurels and abilities once he got there - was and is absolutely amazing to some & better than just watching a fantastic player who is a fantasy to the eyes but sometimes having the mindset of someone who can take the easy way out.
If you want to take this poll that seriously, then know that it does also suggest he is not universally seen as a better player than Cristiano, let alone as one of the best 3 of all time.The poll on the top would suggest that's not true
This isn't the only poll in the world, there are 100s of polls on twitter, Facebook and several websites, don't be deluded...it'll help a lot...The poll on the top would suggest that's not true
I think it is incredibly hard to judge one generation against another. I try not to compare players from different times but take the best from that decade. There are medical advances that have prolonged careers. Brazilan Ronaldo for instance played the latter part of his career with significant knee damage that a minor operation would clear up today.
So when I place our Ronaldo below a few geniuses I don't feel I am being disrespectful. I just don't know how I compare him with even his countryman Figo or other Man Utd greats such as Edwards, Charlton and Best all from different eras.
Klose has a brilliant CV - goals and trophies but I don't think I would put him in my top 20 even from the last decade.
Iniesta is my all time favourite player after Scholes but he would not be on my list of geniuses or even the top 3 of a decade and he has won so many things including a WC winning goal. I would probably have him in a list of 10 best players over his career.
So,it is incredibly difficult and that is why it is such fun to debate and ponder because there are so many variables beyond what they win.
If you want to take this poll that seriously, then know that it does also suggest he is not universally seen as a better player than Cristiano, let alone as one of the best 3 of all time.
Of course I was being glib, relax
This is just so wrong. Klose was never ever consider anywhere near the top 5 players in the world for even once, but we are talking about Ronaldo here, who is 5 times Ballon D'or winner and 6 times 1st runners up, that's over a decade of being the top 1 or 2 player in the world. He dominate the football world for the whole decade, alongside with Messi, the type of total domination which is unmatched in almost any other football era, except perhaps Pele in 60's.. And those other players you bring up from other era, Gazza and Del Piero? They never ever considered top 3 players in any years. Figo? Zidane? Ronaldhinho? L.Ronaldo? Their combined total Ballon D'or wins or runners-up are less than Ronaldo alone. I mean, yes, great players from different era, hard to compare, but this era Ronaldo has to actually beat the peak Messi to win it. Can Figo, Zidane, Ronaldhino, L.Ronaldo beat the peak Messi? like 5 times? I don't think they can, I mean even combined 4 of them together, they probably couldn't.
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he is right though
Yes, in all polls Messi is still the best by a big margin, sorry.
I suppose it depends on how much you respect the Baloon D'Or process.
Lampard, Gerard, Beckham got into the top 3 and Owen actually won it in 2001. All very good players but surely no where near the level of Gazza. Would you say that made Beckham better than Scholes, Giggs and Keane? Owen better than Shearer?
Messi won 4 in a row 09-12 and quite how he has managed only 1 since is a mystery. Personally I think it was designed and marketed to make Ronaldo a valid contender to ensure La Liga was seen as the best because they had the 2 best players in the world. There were other exceptional players around at the same time who should have won it some years.
Youtube has only been around since 2005. It is the marketing that has changed and the internet has changed the goal posts. I don't really take much notice of this award any more. I know it is voted for by every manager and every captain but there are a lot of them and they will have to watch these players somewhere so that is where the marketing comes in.
I think you can only really pick out the very best of the generation. Messi is my pick for the most recent generation. If your player is Ronaldo then that is great.
It makes perfect sense to me. It's a difficult thing to do for any sport, but it's much harder in football because there are so many variables to take into account.
Majority opinion in football seems to have settled on a tiering system for the greats of the game, and I'd subscribe to that notion. People tend to cite a top 3 (in no particular order) of Pele, Maradona and Messi. Then another group just behind with Di Stefano, Cruyff and so on. Personally I'd put Ronaldo in this group.
Indeed. When the greatest of all time is mentioned, it is usually Diego, Leo or Pele. Cruyff, Di Stefano, Cristiano in the tier below. Then you have the likes of Franz, Platini, Eusebio, Puskas in the tier below that. Cristiano is often spoken of in reference to Messi. Messi is often spoken of in reference to Diego and Pele. This tells us all we need to know.
Only for the simple minded Messi brigade
Great argument. Up there amongst your best.
Only the simple minded rely solely on the opinions of others and fail to form their own.
I am not a fan of conspiracy theory, but it just doesn't make any sense and you know it. Why there is only Ronaldo there who is subject to all types of the conspiracy bullshite out there, why not Messi or anyone else subject to it? It just doesn't make any sense at all. Regarding marketability, Beckham used to be by far the most marketable player in this world, why he never wins it then? Why everyone (captain/coach of all countries, journalists) favours Ronaldo 5 times as no.1 and 6 times as no.2, in 11 long years, but not anyone else? Pogba is currently the 3rd most marketable football player in the world, where is his place in these Ballon D'or awards?? Besides, why winning CL 5 times and Euro once, and scoring around 50 goals every year, has anything to do with marketability for La Liga? Its conspiracy at its worst.
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Perhaps he has formed his own opinion and it aligns with the broad consensus.
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Up until 2009 it was voted for by captains and coaches.
The goal posts then changed and it became the Balloon D'Or for 6 years with Fifa and France football joining their awards together. Messi won 4 and Ronaldo 2 - captains and coaches still voted but journalists (1 from each country) were now included.
2016 it then reverted back to Best Fifa player but this time the media, Coaches, captains and for the first time the public could all vote. Each contributed 25% of the vote. Messi has not won since but a Real Madrid player has won all 3.
So forgive me if I think that it has descended into a bit of a farce since 2009.
I am sure Hazard if he maintains his form will suddenly become very much part of the running from now on.
Leo, Diego and Pele top 3 of all time. Then a tier below you have Di Stefano, Cruyff, CR7 and possibly Beckenbauer. I have no problem admitting that and im from the "Messi brigade".
imo this will change once Messi retires though. Im confident he will be seen above the other 2 GOATS.
imo this will change once Messi retires though. Im confident he will be seen above the other 2 GOATS.
Depends. If he continues to not have much success with Argentina, he might continue to be seen as their equal. On the other hand, if he ends his career with more goals than anyone in history (likely), more trophies than anyone in history (likely) and perhaps another CL, and continues to that might be enough for most people.
Not without a World Cup. That World Cup is pretty much why Maradona is in the GOAT discussion imo.
I think just one more individual great season where he also wins the CL will settle it IMO. Over a decade of being by far the best player in the world while winning the top competition and dominating domestically will be too much to ignore.
He's so good you cant hardly choose a season where he was at his prime. I mean his 2010-2013 false 9 seasons were something else, but so was his 2014/2015 rw season, or the 2008/2009 rw season as well. This last 2 seasons at CAM however are too something else, he evolved to be the best passer and free kick taker in the world on top of keeping his brutal goal scoring records and losing a yard of pace.
Maradona is in the GOAT discussion because he could do with a ball something that maybe 1 or 2 other players could do. He had a control of the ball that probably only Messi can match, and nobody not even Messi can best him there for sure.
He is one of the GOATS because of how he could play, not because of what he won. Imagine for a second if Maradona had lost against Germany on the final of Mexico '86, but instead he had 4 or 5 CL titles with a top club while being by far the key player on all those wins. He would be for sure be regarded the same as he is right now or in fact, probably even higher.
Disagree. Ronaldinho did things with the ball others couldn't dream of. He isn't in the conversation. No World Cup, and we wouldn't have Diego in the GOAT discussion. The World Cup (Rightly or Wrongly) is considered the pinnacle of football. Even if the Champions League is probably a higher quality competition, winning the World Cup / Euros / Copa for your country just lifts people in these discussions.
Prime Ronaldinho was not a better player than Prime Maradona. Not even close to him in fact. Again, only a couple of players can say they have reached the heights that Maradona reached. Ronaldinho isnt one of them.
You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Real Madrid has dominate the CL during the time when Ronaldo wins it, while being by far the best player in the campaign. The very same reason Kaka wins it in 2007, while having by far worst league campaign. You argument is fundamentally flawed.
That is called the Champions league player of the season. Iniesta won in 2012, Ribery 2013 and they did not win the Balloon D'Or.
The Ballon D'Or has got out of hand. The marketing potential and drawing power of having the Ballon D'Or player on your books gives you an astonishing range of powers and alot of sponsorship cash. As more and more money pours into the game these awards become more and more meaningless in my opinion. Were you aware that one of the new criteria is that it includes behavior of the pitch?
The home leagues must be the starting point especially the Spanish and English league that are extremely hard to win. Then the cups and finally the tournaments which is why when the award was voted for by coaches and captains they just voted for the best in their opinion without having to consider the commercial side. So you see some great names on the list. This year Van dyke should be a very strong contender and given that PL has dominated the European tournaments this season then it will be unforgivable if a player from the Spanish league wins it this year.
Since 2009 the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Ribbery, and Schneider all probably deserved to win but haven't.
Even without the Ballon D'Or Messi to me is still way out in front. He does things on the pitch that you just don't do see from other players. He would have gone on and won the Ballon D'or many more times using the old system because players recognise his genius.
Ronaldo is one of the all time great goal scorers - no question but Messi is as well, and also one of the greatest dribblers, one of the greatest passers, one of the greatest readers of the game and if Xavi it to be believed one of the best defenders as well. if you don't see that then fine - but many of us do and we just watch and marvel knowing it will be at least 20-30 years before we see his like again.
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«Ballon»!
Thanks for spotting... have amended
Why does your conspiracy theory on Ronaldo has anything to do with me recognizing Messi dribbling and passing?
I understand Messi is your favourite type of player - dribbling, playmaking and scoring, he master it all, and I never disagree with any of it. But trying to bring Ronaldo down by all these conspiracy bullshite, while ranking him alongside with Gazza and Del Perio, is really pathetic. You don't have to do it in such desperate way, even Ronaldo is not your type of player at all. I know like all other Messi fans, you might not enjoy watching Ronaldo crowning 5 Ballon D'or and 5 CL over the years. Even if you take 1 or 2 Ballon D'or away from Ronaldo, just to fulfill all your conspiracy/bias/favouritism, Ronaldo still end up either as winner or runner-up for 11 times, more or less. The point being, for someone who managed to finished 1st or runners up 11 times in Ballon D'or, shouldn't be rank alongside with Gazza, Del Piero or compared with Klose, who never ever managed to make it anywhere near to runners up for even once.
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I love watching Ronaldo play. I have seen him play in the flesh and he is an amazing athlete and does some incredible things but this thread is about who is the best. I have given you many reasons for believing it is Messi.
You used goals scored, assists and CL titles won as your argument for Ronaldo and the fact that he won so many Baloon D'Ors. I responded that Klose is an eg of someone who has scored many goals at the WC (16) and won numerous titles and is not considered the best or even in the top 30 of his generation. I have not compared Ronaldo to Klose just suggested that goals and winning things is not necessarily the best measure of a player because it is a team game. I also stated how sceptical I was about the Baloon D'Or given that many other players should have won over the years not just Messi or Ronaldo. I don't believe either deserves to win this year considering how some Man City (Bernardo Silva), Liverpool (Mane, Van Dyke, Salah) and even Chelsea (Hazard) players have performed at home and in European competitions.
I have also indicated where I believe Ronaldo ranks - in the second tier, outside the top 4 (Messi, Maradona, Pele are shoe ins but there is some debate over whether my fourth choice Brazilian Ronaldo makes it or not.)
In the second tier you have the 4-10 of a generation type of player outstanding talents such as Cruyff, Best, Charlton, Edwards, Zidane, Baggio, Ronaldinho, Eusebio, Figo, Raul, Maldini, Iniesta, Xavi, Zico, Van Basten and many more. Perhaps more controversial choices such as Gazza, Garincha, Socrates & Del Pierro. They all have/had something they did brilliantly and Ronaldo deserves to be amongst this amazing group because of his outstanding scoring ability. If Edwards had survived or Van Basten not injured his knee in his prime they may well have even jumped a rank.
If you think Ronaldo belongs in the top tier in the world ever based on his playing ability then so be it.
I hope I have answered your questions and wish you well watching Ronaldo continue to play and enthrall us all for a few more years yet.
You can't say that when Messi isn't even the sure best player of his generation. If Messi was top 3 all time and Ronaldo was not then this discussion would not exist.
There is a reason they are compared to each other because they are dam near equal. So if one is top 3 then so is the other.
Pele is Overrated I have had this discussion.
Hardly overrated when many people often put him on same level with Maradona as the greatest player of all time.
He was the best player of his time no doubt but the overall quality is very poor. Most of the games he played in and scored more then 1 goal had absurd scores like 9-0, 11-1 etc. He was a marketing tool and did many showcase games and friendlies across Europe against low level competition. He was an ambassador of football no doubt you can evens say he helped popularize it because of how good he was compared to the scrubs of his time but he is not better then Messi, Ronaldo, or Maradona. Pele is considered the GOAT to many because since you and I and many other were young his name was shoved down our throat to the point where it became a formality to say that. Example: Fernando Peyroteo look him up. Has 337 goals in 187 games. No one mentions him because the quality of football played at the Time was poor. He has the best goal to game ratio out of anyone but I bet most dont even know who he is.
This is a post I put in another thread. I have a video if you want to see it to which further explains more.
"Ok I’ll try. The overall standard back then was very poor as is with almost anything things get better over time level of competition, understanding of the game etc. I think something like 400 of his (1000 goals) goals were scored in friendliest against pub teams.
1962 World Cup he didn’t even participate ( he got injured) so that win had NOTHING to do with him but rather Garinhcha. He scored 6 goals in 58 and then in 62 and 66 had 1 goal .... so In other words half of his World Cup wins he had no influence on.
He is a name that since you begin watching football is shoved down our throat and you get it stuck in your mind that “yep he’s the goat” but in reality he is overrated.
Now understand that me calling him overrated does not mean I am saying he is a bad player but he is just now on Maradona Ronaldo or Messi level."
yeah but he also had major influence and one of the main reasons Brazil able to won 1958 & 1970 WC.
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