Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Ishdalar]

Messi may have scored in the final, but don't forget your real star.

You owe it all to one Tom Henning Øvrebø for the semifinal!

So true, the one man who started the Pep dynasty

Excuse me, did Ronaldo play on Stamford Bridge, Ovrebo did a number on United, any unfair call in that final that Messi won vs Ronaldo?. Oh, right, just spreading a little smoke to make everyone forget the match some people want to happen to give Ronaldo a chance to vindicate himself vs Messi in a situation that ALREADY HAPPENED 10 years ago.

Jesus, the savagery, seems like I just found the right spot to turn you on.

 

[PGLFC91]

You could debate this a few years ago if you wanted but Messi has always been better.

The gap between them now is bigger than ever. I watch Ronaldo and he is a goal poacher. A very good one at that but that is his game now.

Messi still gets the same number of goals and contributes to the game way more overall in terms of assisting, playmaking and dictating the general play.

 

[Shinjch]

Well, one has to be responsible for one’s actions.

I’m not sure those were mistakes.

Beyond partisan, and beyond pathetic.

 

[Zehner]

Well, one has to be responsible for one’s actions.

I’m not sure those were mistakes.

You are really a completely deluded human being. Your previous tag line was definitely more accurate than your current one. How obsessed people can become of another human being 5hey don't even know personally.. incredible.

 

[TheRedScot]

But Barca are above 99 percent of other La liga sides the same way Juve are of Italian sides?
If Madrid were to suddenly become Italian, would it magically put a gloss on Juves numbers v Sampdoria etc?

it isnt the same. in spain there are 3 teams capable of beating the other 17 teams consistently therefore posting large points numbers at the seasons end. Juventus are the only team in serie A capable of going on long unbeaten runs and therefore the teams below cant get near them in terms of points at the end of the season.

 

[cyberman]

it isnt the same. in spain there are 3 teams capable of beating the other 17 teams consistently therefore posting large points numbers at the seasons end. Juventus are the only team in serie A capable of going on long unbeaten runs and therefore the teams below cant get near them in terms of points at the end of the season.

Barca were undefeated until something like their fourth last game or something? Plus Atletico rarely beats Barca these days.
If you look at Barca, they dominate La Liga but routinely fall short in Europe for quite a while now.
I don't see what sets them apart to the point they can claim they're this top side thats dominating an amazing top league that its made out to be.
I'd say Barca are further ahead of La Liga than Juve are of Serie A. Juve just don't have an under performing giant that they play twice as year thats overly hyped to the heavens.
If Ronaldo truly wanted to win a guaranteed league he could have joined Barca themselves.

 

[Shinjch]

Barca were undefeated until something like their fourth last game or something? Plus Atletico rarely beats Barca these days.
If you look at Barca, they dominate La Liga but routinely fall short in Europe for quite a while now.
I don't see what sets them apart to the point they can claim they're this top side thats dominating an amazing top league that its made out to be.
I'd say Barca are further ahead of La Liga than Juve are of Serie A. Juve just don't have an under performing giant that they play twice as year thats overly hyped to the heavens.
If Ronaldo truly wanted to win a guaranteed league he could have joined Barca themselves.

Yet Barcelona share a league with a team that has won the last 3 European Cups and a team that handily beat Juventus last night. I'm struggling to get on board with your line of thinking here. Dominating a league with Real Madrid in it is no mean feat.

 

[cyberman]

Yet Barcelona share a league with a team that has won the last 3 European Cups and a team that handily beat Juventus last night. I'm struggling to get on board with your line of thinking here. Dominating a league with Real Madrid in it is no mean feat.

If you're going by Cl then this Barca side aren't much of a side. Which isn't true.
Dominating a league with an under performing Madrid isn't that much of a feat. There may have been what? 2/3 season in the last decade that they could have seen Madrid as a major threat? Barca were always ahead of Madrid squad and personnel wise.
Why are we ignoring how easily Barca win La Liga while being routinely shown up by the big boys in Europe? Where is the balance?
Barca are dropping points once every three games, which is by far the worst form of any league leaders in the top sides, yet they are 7 points clear.
Not exactly a hardship for them. They haven't been under any pressure at all this year and are winning this on autopilot.

 

[Br1_ovi]

" Barca were always ahead of Madrid squad and personnel wise."

Thats not true. Madrid squad has been better for years.

 

[cyberman]

" Barca were always ahead of Madrid squad and personnel wise."

Thats not true. Madrid squad has been better for years.

I don't agree.

 

[Shinjch]

If you're going by Cl then this Barca side aren't much of a side. Which isn't true.
Dominating a league with an under performing Madrid isn't that much of a feat. There may have been what? 2/3 season in the last decade that they could have seen Madrid as a major threat? Barca were always ahead of Madrid squad and personnel wise.
Why are we ignoring how easily Barca win La Liga while being routinely shown up by the big boys in Europe? Where is the balance?
Barca are dropping points once every three games, which is by far the worst form of any league leaders in the top sides, yet they are 7 points clear.
Not exactly a hardship for them. They haven't been under any pressure at all this year and are winning this on autopilot.

You could also say that this speaks to the strength of the league, no? Obviously you wouldn't though, as you are just picking whatever you want to take out of all these things.

 

[GatoLoco]

" Barca were always ahead of Madrid squad and personnel wise."

Thats not true. Madrid squad has been better for years.

I don't agree.

In my opinion there are different periods:

2009 - 2014 -> Barcelona have the best squad.
2014 - 2017 -> Madrid have the best squad, especially in the last season.
2017/2018 -> Not really sure. Barcelona have the best strike force and Real Madrid the best midfield, but the quality of both squads are somehow close.
2018/2019 -> Too much difference between Messi, Suarez and Benzema, Vinicius, Lucas. I think Barcelona edge it again.

 

[altodevil]

In terms of recent European success, there is no contest between La Liga and Serie A clubs. It feels like every year a Spanish club wins the Europa, with 2/3 in the UCL QF.

 

[Br1_ovi]

In my opinion there are different periods:

2009 - 2014 -> Barcelona have the best squad.
2014 - 2017 -> Madrid have the best squad, especially in the last season.
2017/2018 -> Not really sure. Barcelona have the best strike force and Real Madrid the best midfield, but the quality of both squads are somehow close.
2018/2019 -> Too much difference between Messi, Suarez and Benzema, Vinicius, Lucas. I think Barcelona edge it again.

2017/2018 Barcelona better strikeforce? You must be joking. Suarez last good season was 16/17 (probably the best player in the world that season, better than Messi & Ronaldo). He declined so bad after that season. In the 17/18 he lost his speed and is a box poacher since then. And Madrid had Ronaldo, Benzema & Bale.

2009-2014 Barcelona had a sublime XI, but Madrid also had a fantastic XI under Mourinho and better bench.

If you watch the games everyone can see that Suarez's last 2 seasons are not good enough to be a starter in any top club in Europe.

Plus Casemiro-Kroos-Modric has been dominating Europe for 3 seasons so bad. They did what Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta did 2009-2011

 

[GatoLoco]

2017/2018 Barcelona better strikeforce? You must be joking. Suarez last good season was 16/17 (probably the best player in the world that season, better than Messi & Ronaldo). He declined so bad after that season. In the 17/18 he lost his speed and is a box poacher since then. And Madrid had Ronaldo, Benzema & Bale.

2019-2014 Barcelona had a sublime XI, but Madrid also had a fantastic XI under Mourinho and better bench.

People need to start warching games. If you watch the games everyone can see that Suarez's last 2 seasons are not good enough to be a starter in any top club in Europe.

Messi and Suarez scored 59 goals in the league in 17/18

Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema scored 47 goals in the league in 17/18

(Two players vs three)

If you compare Suarez to Benzema, the strikers having the most minutes out of Ronaldo and Messi: Suarez 25 goals, Benzema 5 goals in the league.


"2019-2014 Barcelona had a sublime XI, but Madrid also had a fantastic XI under Mourinho and better bench."

Not as fantastic as people are making out to be. Out of the midfielders, Alonso was both consistent and brilliant. Özil too inconsistent and Khedira simply not good enough.

Only the addition of Modric, Kroos, Isco, Casemiro made Madrid take a step forward.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

But Barca are above 99 percent of other La liga sides the same way Juve are of Italian sides?
If Madrid were to suddenly become Italian, would it magically put a gloss on Juves numbers v Sampdoria etc?

You can't compare La Liga and the Serie A.

One league is clearly superior and more competitive.

Barcelona haven't won La Liga 7 straight seasons.

 

[MrEleson]

2017/2018 Barcelona better strikeforce? You must be joking. Suarez last good season was 16/17 (probably the best player in the world that season, better than Messi & Ronaldo). He declined so bad after that season. In the 17/18 he lost his speed and is a box poacher since then. And Madrid had Ronaldo, Benzema & Bale.

2009-2014 Barcelona had a sublime XI, but Madrid also had a fantastic XI under Mourinho and better bench.

If you watch the games everyone can see that Suarez's last 2 seasons are not good enough to be a starter in any top club in Europe.

Plus Casemiro-Kroos-Modric has been dominating Europe for 3 seasons so bad. They did what Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta did 2009-2011

Maybe you need to start watching the games. Benzema recorded a whole 5 League goals in the entirety of last season. Suarez score 20 more than that even in his declined state. Don't even get me started on Bale who barely featured for the crucial part of the season. And no way did Madrid have a better bench under Mourinho. They had the likes of Granero, Callejon, Albiol & past it Kaka on the bench. And Casemiro-Kroos-Modric is still a notch below Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta even though I rate Modric the most out of them all.

Taking your Barca tinted specs off; they had by the far the superior side from 2009-14. Only after that period did Madrid start matching them stride for stride or even surpassing them.

 

[cyberman]

You can't compare La Liga and the Serie A.

One league is clearly superior and more competitive.

Barcelona haven't won La Liga 7 straight seasons.

when Barca wins it this year it will be their 8th in 11 seasons. The difference isn't that vast. It takes freak seasons from cl finalists to wrench La Liga away from them. That's how far ahead of the rest they are.

 

[Cal?]

By being told by people that they will come to his house and kill him and his family. Right.

You're a bellend.

Let's not pretend the world is such a nice harmonious place. Plenty of people get death threats for all sorts of things.

Excuse me, did Ronaldo play on Stamford Bridge, Ovrebo did a number on United, any unfair call in that final that Messi won vs Ronaldo?. Oh, right, just spreading a little smoke to make everyone forget the match some people want to happen to give Ronaldo a chance to vindicate himself vs Messi in a situation that ALREADY HAPPENED 10 years ago.

Jesus, the savagery, seems like I just found the right spot to turn you on.

Ovebro basically cost United the "first team to retain the CL" title with his actions that day.

Beyond partisan, and beyond pathetic.

You are really a completely deluded human being. Your previous tag line was definitely more accurate than your current one. How obsessed people can become of another human being 5hey don't even know personally.. incredible.

The Messi fans all standing by their ref, I wonder why.

 

[predator]

TBH they are the 2 best players that have so far played football. IMO Ronaldo will go down as the most famous player ever but Messi will be regarded as the better footballer by those who know the game (having played it too, not just spectating).

IMO there's nothing that Ronaldo can do now that would turn the tables for me. His records and variance in leagues he's dominated puts him at the very top but Messi for me is a different animal. I've never seen a player who has records that arguably match CR7 play the game as beautifully as anyone, without relying on physical attributes and making world class defenders look like pub league.

 

[mdvmia]

2017/2018 Barcelona better strikeforce? You must be joking. Suarez last good season was 16/17 (probably the best player in the world that season, better than Messi & Ronaldo). He declined so bad after that season. In the 17/18 he lost his speed and is a box poacher since then. And Madrid had Ronaldo, Benzema & Bale.

2009-2014 Barcelona had a sublime XI, but Madrid also had a fantastic XI under Mourinho and better bench.

If you watch the games everyone can see that Suarez's last 2 seasons are not good enough to be a starter in any top club in Europe.

Plus Casemiro-Kroos-Modric has been dominating Europe for 3 seasons so bad. They did what Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta did 2009-2011

Casemiro-Kroos-Modric were nowhere near as dominant as the Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta. That midfield was very good but the Barca trio dominated possession in practically every match while Madrid has had plenty of big matches on the back foot over recent seasons.
.

 

[Oscar.Z.Acosta]

This is still going on?!

It’s like The Da Vinci Code only, somehow, even shitter. And that utter ream of drivel is by far the shittest thing I’ve ever had the misfortune to read (the things we do to try and attract a sexual partner, eh?).

Cognitive dissonance makes a fool of us all from time-to-time but imagine explaining this thread to an alien that has just landed on this planet? They’d leave.

If you cannot see that Messi is a superior footballer perhaps an understanding is needed that individual statistics in a team sport never allow an objective assessment of a player. Play football, watch football and try to understand football. Tony Blair would be proud of the Ronaldo defenders’ use of statistics to prove the impossible here.

But having said all that, at least you’re not stabbing each other in the street, so as you were gentlemen and ladies...

 

[De Portago]

Ovebro basically cost United the "first team to retain the CL" title with his actions that day.

Surely you're not serious with this?

First, if Chelsea was capable of defeating Barcelona (and they were), they would be obviously capable of defeating United as well.

Secondly, if you want to win the CL you're supposed to be able to beat the best opposition the competition throws at you, which happened to be Barcelona in the end. You've been outplayed and beaten soundly, so there should be no complains of that sort.

Thirdly, my opinion is that what cost you the most in that fixture was the fact that Barcelona fielded probably the best CM pairing in at least 20 years or so playing at or near their peak, and you played 35.5 years old converted winger, with a cameo appearance by an also 35 year old Scholes. Legends that they both are, that day I just couldn't shake the feeling they were thrown in like lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Cal?]

Surely you're not serious with this?

First, if Chelsea was capable of defeating Barcelona (and they were), they would be obviously capable of defeating United as well.

Secondly, if you want to win the CL you're supposed to be able to beat the best opposition the competition throws at you, which happened to be Barcelona in the end. You've been outplayed and beaten soundly, so there should be no complains of that sort.

Thirdly, my opinion is that what cost you the most in that fixture was the fact that Barcelona fielded probably the best CM pairing in at least 20 years or so playing at or near their peak, and you played 35.5 years old converted winger, with a cameo appearance by an also 35 year old Scholes. Legends that they both are, that day I just couldn't shake the feeling they were thrown in like lambs to the slaughter.

Chelsea were more than capable of beating Barca as they should have without the utter incompetence of Ovebro.

United had a great record against Chelsea that season and it’s not unreasonable to think United would have been favorites and likely have won the final.

There are different styles to teams and some are more suited to beating others. Real Madrid has conquered Europe in the last few seasons yet maintain a rather poor record against Barca.

You win the CL by beating the teams in front of you, Chelsea should have been in front of us in 2009. Only the most blinded Barca/Messi fans will argue otherwise.

 

[Sky1981]

At this point of time it's perfect 50 50

357 votes each

 

[mdvmia]

Chelsea were more than capable of beating Barca as they should have without the utter incompetence of Ovebro.

United had a great record against Chelsea that season and it’s not unreasonable to think United would have been favorites and likely have won the final.

There are different styles to teams and some are more suited to beating others. Real Madrid has conquered Europe in the last few seasons yet maintain a rather poor record against Barca.

You win the CL by beating the teams in front of you, Chelsea should have been in front of us in 2009. Only the most blinded Barca/Messi fans will argue otherwise.

Without the incompetence of the referee in the first leg, we would have won that game 1/2-0 and the second leg would have been completely different

 

[Fridge chutney]

Ronaldo has obviously made a simply unbelievable career being a phenomenal goal scorer, but can anyone really claim - with a straight face and without an erection - that he’s even close to being as good an overall footballer as Messi? I find the notion simply too incredulous to be believable.

Well said. This is my opinion too.

That said, those two are by far and away the best players of their generation. I just feel like Messi is a level above as a footballer.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Without the incompetence of the referee in the first leg, we would have won that game 1/2-0 and the second leg would have been completely different

Sounds very Liverpool-esque.

 

[Suedesi]

The ref was bad in both matches. Barca deserved to go through. feck Chelsea.

 

[roonster09]

there's no point to argue with him. It's clear he doesn't like pogba for whatever reason but tbh I don't even know what this debate is doing in the Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

Yeah, this debate is out of place in this thread. It was funny seeing some random names thrown in to the mix with some random conditions.

 

[Zehner]

So there is no typical midfielder that you are trying to describe. Pep never had a midfielder like Schweinsteiger before he went to Bayern and Schweinsteiger is all action midfielder than players like Xavi, Kroos. If you can't see how different Schweinsteiger and Vidal are from Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Kroos then I can't help.

Obviously KdB is different from Pogba and even if wants Pep can't sign player like Pogba as there is only 1 player like Pogba and he plays for ManUtd. You said Pogba plays too many risky passes but there is no midfielder who plays more risky passes than KdB. Pogba isn't more direct than KdB.

Fernandinho was not typical Pep player either but once Pep took over he became key player for them. He was all action box to box player, now he is a holding player.



Yeah Vidal wasn't so important, that's why he played 30/34 league games and played in every single CL game including Semi finals of CL, played in every German cup games including finals. He was the midfielder who played most mins for Bayern and had 3rd most appearances among outfield players.

Your point was Pogba can't play for Pep as he isn't agile, I gave you bunch of examples who played for Pep and weren't agile. You said Pogba also plays too many risky passes and I gave you Pep's important player who plays more risky passes than anyone in the league.

There is no reason why Pogba can't play for anyone or system. You just gave bunch of random names (few of them aren't even CMs) and then started moving goal posts with every post.

Just seen that. Man, you really have to be careful in "criticizing" Pogba here. I mean, I didn't even criticize him, I simply denied he's the most talented CM in the world and claimed he isn't Pep's preferred player type which is hardly even debatable.

First of all, if you really think that Schweinsteiger is more similar to Vidal than to Xavi or Kroos I can' t help you but in reality he wasn't. The guy was placed in midfield by van Gaal, he's been a 90+% passer for years even before Pep took over. Nothing like Vidal who was also not nearly as influential in possesion based systems as he was for Juve - just watch him struggle for Barca now. I don't what kind of players you guys thought you had signed but I geniunely think most people in here talking about Schweinsteiger only remember his WC final. He was no "all action box to box midfielder", not even in the slightest.

The same goes for your Pogba/de Bruyne comparison. You pretend that they are eerily similar when they actually are quite different in their play styles, though I agree that de Bruyne is the most direct midfielder Pep played so far. However, if you take a look at the other CMs he played majorly (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alonso, David Silva, Gündogan, Bernardo Silva, Foden, even Fernandinho) and recognize no pattern at all I don't see much sense in this debate. I actually can't believe that I have to argue Pep has a preferred type of player, thought that was general consensus.

Ah, and Fernandinho was no typical Pep player? I didn't watch much City before Guardiola took over to be honest but what I saw of Fernandinho at Donezk suggested otherwise. However, even if that wasn't the case the guy is playing as the deepest midfielder in a 4-3-3 mainly closing down space and distributing the ball with almost zero offensive responsibilities apart from a occasional through ball, I doubt that this is the role you thought of for Pogba. And again, I didn't say that he couldn't play for Pep (of course he can if even Vidal played decently under him) but that he wasn't a particularly good fit and that there were much better choices. I don't think Pogba could do as well as David Silva for them e.g., and if you argue "Pogba is the most talented CM in world football" those players are the benchmark.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Let's not pretend the world is such a nice harmonious place. Plenty of people get death threats for all sorts of things.

Ah fair enough, other people get 'em too, that's okay then. Hat's off to your flawless reasoning sir.

You do realize you're making Ronaldo look bad by proxy right?

 

[roonster09]

Just seen that. Man, you really have to be careful in "criticizing" Pogba here. I mean, I didn't even criticize him, I simply denied he's the most talented CM in the world and claimed he isn't Pep's preferred player type which is hardly even debatable.

First of all, if you really think that Schweinsteiger is more similar to Vidal than to Xavi or Kroos I can' t help you but in reality he wasn't. The guy was placed in midfield by van Gaal, he's been a 90+% passer for years even before Pep took over. Nothing like Vidal who was also not nearly as influential in possesion based systems as he was for Juve - just watch him struggle for Barca now. I don't what kind of players you guys thought you had signed but I geniunely think most people in here talking about Schweinsteiger only remember his WC final. He was no "all action box to box midfielder", not even in the slightest.

The same goes for your Pogba/de Bruyne comparison. You pretend that they are eerily similar when they actually are quite different in their play styles, though I agree that de Bruyne is the most direct midfielder Pep played so far. However, if you take a look at the other CMs he played majorly (Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alonso, David Silva, Gündogan, Bernardo Silva, Foden, even Fernandinho) and recognize no pattern at all I don't see much sense in this debate. I actually can't believe that I have to argue Pep has a preferred type of player, thought that was general consensus.

Ah, and Fernandinho was no typical Pep player? I didn't watch much City before Guardiola took over to be honest but what I saw of Fernandinho at Donezk suggested otherwise. However, even if that wasn't the case the guy is playing as the deepest midfielder in a 4-3-3 mainly closing down space and distributing the ball with almost zero offensive responsibilities apart from a occasional through ball, I doubt that this is the role you thought of for Pogba. And again, I didn't say that he couldn't play for Pep (of course he can if even Vidal played decently under him) but that he wasn't a particularly good fit and that there were much better choices. I don't think Pogba could do as well as David Silva for them e.g., and if you argue "Pogba is the most talented CM in world football" those players are the benchmark.

I didn't say Schweinsteiger is more similar to Vidal. I said Schweinsteiger and Vidal are different from Xavi and Iniesta.

Re rest of the post, I'm very honest with you I didn't read any of that. I stopped after "hardly even debatable" part as I know what will be the content. It will be more excuses, more random names and even more moving of goal posts.

So yeah good day.

 

[Zehner]

I didn't say Schweinsteiger is more similar to Vidal. I said Schweinsteiger and Vidal are different from Xavi and Iniesta.

Re rest of the post, I'm very honest with you I didn't read any of that. I stopped after "hardly even debatable" part as I know what will be the content. It will be more excuses, more random names and even more moving of goal posts.

So yeah good day.

Nice discussion style. Serves me right for criticizing the caf's (and Pep's, aparrently) current favourite player I guess

 

[roonster09]

Nice discussion style. Serves me right for criticizing the caf's (and Pep's, aparrently) current favourite player I guess

Well I made my points, you keep changing yours. So there is no point.

 

[Zehner]

Well I made my points, you keep changing yours. So there is no point.

Haven't changed a single point nor did I move any goal post, but whatever. Didn't expect people would take Pogba "criticism" that personally, so I apologize if I hurt your feelings. Wasn't my intention.

 

[roonster09]

Haven't changed a single point nor did I move any goal post, but whatever. Didn't expect people would take Pogba "criticism" that personally, so I apologize if I hurt your feelings. Wasn't my intention.

Well you keep repeating it, no. No one takes any criticism of players personally. You just post what you believe and challenge what you believe is wrong.

 

[Shinjch]

The Messi fans all standing by their ref, I wonder why.

I'm a United supporter, not a Messi fan. Just couldn't believe you weren't condemning death threats to a person and their family. Then to say that other people get death threats too, so it's not a big deal really says a lot. Very strange behaviour.

 

[Gio]

Without the incompetence of the referee in the first leg, we would have won that game 1/2-0 and the second leg would have been completely different

Yup, forgotten amid the hysteria over the second leg. Any lead that forces Chelsea to come out wouldn't have played to their strengths.

 

[De Portago]

Chelsea were more than capable of beating Barca as they should have without the utter incompetence of Ovebro.

United had a great record against Chelsea that season and it’s not unreasonable to think United would have been favorites and likely have won the final.

There are different styles to teams and some are more suited to beating others. Real Madrid has conquered Europe in the last few seasons yet maintain a rather poor record against Barca.

You win the CL by beating the teams in front of you, Chelsea should have been in front of us in 2009. Only the most blinded Barca/Messi fans will argue otherwise.

Maybe they should have been, but they were not. You lost comfortably, and that was that. Real has had tons of refereeing help during their '15-'18 run, should we start putting asterisks there also?

Yup, forgotten amid the hysteria over the second leg. Any lead that forces Chelsea to come out wouldn't have played to their strengths.

Not the only time either, remember Van Persie double yellow incident? With competent refereeing in the first game second leg would have in all probability been made redundant but everyone conveniently forgets that.