It would help your case if Messi doesn't go missing every time the CL QF come along.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Sorry, but why are you mentioning playmaker to make the distinction between them? Ronaldo never was one in the first place. And I am not saying he is the better player.
Yet in the CL Ronaldo has the same assist/game ratio as Messi.
Not shocking at all when you consider Ronaldo was player as a wide winger in Man United with lots of assists, also he didn't start in a CL winning team like Barcelona 05/06 and he very good at adapting his game to suit his team - in Real he became a second striker because that's what the team needed, in Portugal and Juventus he wasn't/isn't one and always played more in the wing.
I agree that Messi is a better playmaker, it's just that Ronaldo isn't a rock with eyes as most want to believe.
Messi only played until the first leg against Chelsea at least16 in that 05/06 CL. He was the best player on the pitch in that game, too.
Are you seriously agreeing with the Messi brigade that goals scored against At Madrid when they were shite count as much as the ones in recent years?
so true. This entire thread genuinely feels like that.You should count only the Champions League since Messi never played in the Premier League
I'm not talking about a position on the pitch, but about the general ability and a whole dimension of game. Messi is an elite playmaker, regardless of what position he's playing in.
Yes.
But 1 having the ability to be a elite playmaker and the other having different atributes doesn't have to be the focal point to make comparisons. And with this I am done on this subject.
They should rename this thread to something like "Neverending Story". This is already more than a saga who defies the logic of the human condition.
Why Atletico? Why not Bayern or Juve? The fact is Ronaldo's big game record regardless of how you define it is much much better due to his significantly better record in the CL knockout stage where the big teams play.
The Ballon D'or has Ronaldo the better player 7 out of the last 12 years.
Why not Bayern? Really? He never destroyed Bayern on a UCL ko round?.
Again, if we resort to your logic "Only because he was voted the best, like Messi in the World Cup, very debatable".
There we go again with the typical Messi brigade respsonse, they're so sure of themselves and have only come to educate everyone else.
If Messi dribbles and loses possession, whilst Ronaldo shoots and the shot was saved. How was what Messi did any more efficient?
This is your new greatest hit for 2019? "Better to lose the ball shooting than dribbling"?.
Well, stat wise Messi loses the ball dribbling 1.1 times more per90 than Ronaldo, Ronaldo shoots off target 1 time more per 90 than Messi and gets his shots blocked 0.4 times more than Messi.
So Messi loses you the ball 6.9 times per game between dribbling, bad controls and Shooting, Ronaldo 7.4. Yeah, he's more efficient. "Oh, but he's just 0.5 times per 90 minutes more efficient", well, if you look at it as a percentage Messi is almost 7% more efficient retaining the ball while scoring at a better ratio.
Exactly. On top of that the obsession with stats and rating players based on "rings".
Europeans and South Americans always valued aesthetics and style to a greater degree.
Whether that's the correct approach or not is up for debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Ballon_d'Or
Can you imagine a player winning the World Cup and the CL, while scoring in both Finals and Semi Finals and finishing 7th in Ballon D'Or voting?
Absolutely insane, this would never happen in a million years today.
No, I'm not comparing Müller to Ronaldo. It's just a great example to show that a change of culture took place.
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That's bollox, plenty of people in Europe and the rest of the world think Ronaldo is better. Messi fans can be unbelievable arrogant.
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Mate, you seriously need to get out more.
Good to know you understood my post and reply with something completely unrelated.
Saying there isn't an obvious change of culture in football is 'bollocks'.
Btw it's warranted to be arrogant when you have the correct opinion.
Sorry, but that's just not true at all.
There are several completely random players at every World Cup who perform like Messi did in '14 (show up in the group stage and do next to nothing in the KO stages). If not for his name, nobody would care about his WC performance and he wouldn't win the Golden Ball.
No, not really. Between Federer and Djokovic it may be a close call. Messi is simply on a different level.
A large degree of confusion stems from the phenomenon of overrating cup competitions. And that phenomenon has recently become so prominent among football fans as it is just another symptom of an increasingly vulgar and shallow, soulless and neurotic culture. This is also behind the stats craze. But apparently even stats are not enough to dissuade the true believers: because worship of the image is at the root of everything. There is a deep and unconscious religious quality to it, same as with science worshiping types.
Not to say that Messi also isn't a sports/media avatar of this age, with his share of trophy counting fans. Pele, Maradona etc. also were (and still are). But Ronaldo is like a perfect incarnation of this worldview and sensibility, and idol worshipers of techno-crazed and media obsessed age naturally gravitate towards him.
I agree, a good example.
Ronaldo drew a game against Parma, he's obviously overrated.
Tbf both of them did yesterday.
Haha. ExactlyGood to know you understood my post and reply with something completely unrelated.
Saying there isn't an obvious change of culture in football is 'bollocks'.
Btw it's warranted to be arrogant when you have the correct opinion.
So true. It's like he's got an Excel sheet and plays around with the filters until Cristiano comes out at top. Then he goes on and pretends these random conditions are the most important, declares everything else irrelevant and ridicules those who point out his bias. And in the end this is his ultimate proof that Ronaldo was 'better' (which obviously can be measured precisely by comparing the goal record of both players, again every other way in which a footballer can influence a match is conveniently ignored).
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It's 2019 and we're still arguing with Consipracy Cal?. I feel like my life has been wasted.
Not to go too much off topic, but Federer is overrated as hell. Most of his slams were amassed in a weak period in the game 2004-2007 against sub standard competition. I'd put both Djokovic and Nadal ahead of him. As for Ronaldo, yeah I completely agree. People would reject him as one of the greatest ever, no matter what he does. I don't know whether he is better than Messi or not, but it is definitely closer than people think. The notion that Ronaldo only scores tap ins is also nonsense. Look at his highlights and you'd see way more than just standard tap ins.
I remember that prior to Madrid all these cup titles, the main argument was about Ronaldo being a more complete player. You couldn't come up with a more misguided notion, but these people wouldn't let it go and found the most ludicrous ways to prove it. Now that the sufficient quantity of cup trophies is accumulated, the argument is completely forgotten. It was never about football in the first place.
I still can't understand why Ronaldo fans get offended when we compare Cristiano to Gerd Muller, the german was a great goalscorer, it's not that we are comparing him with Inzaghi.
Look, I don't want claim that everybody outside of traditional markets thinks like that. Or that everybody in Europe appreciates the same type of footballer and values the same qualities.
Sports fandom differs a lot around the World.
Something happened with the rise of the Internet/widening of the target audience. There are more people who follow certain superstar players instead of teams. Individual awards are getting more important every year. So are stats and "winning". No, I'm not saying that stats, awards and team trophies didn't matter to assess individual footballers, the emphases have just shifted.
Here is another example:
Brazil 1982
Absolutely unthinkable that a team which gets eliminated before the semi-finals is voted 'Team of the Year'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Soccer_(magazine)
I also don't necessarily agree with that view of valuing style above all. Just presenting what happened.
Ah right,well Frenkie de Jong won 6-0. We have a new goat.
Are you seriously questing including Bayern as a top team?
You're not about to say the "good old days" are better are you?
The change of culture DID take place, and plenty of people think Ronaldo is better, regardless of what the Messi brigade like to believe.
Messi's inability to even get to the CL SF in recent years has left you lot resorting to his being better at destroying Girona & the likes.
Long may it continue.
Are you seriously questing including Bayern as a top team?
You're not about to say the "good old days" are better are you?
The change of culture DID take place, and plenty of people think Ronaldo is better, regardless of what the Messi brigade like to believe.
Messi's inability to even get to the CL SF in recent years has left you lot resorting to his being better at destroying Girona & the likes.
Long may it continue.
No, he also has better goal stats against every top team except Juve and Bayern. He's got more goals against the EPLs top 6 then Ronaldo although the latter played in the league ffs. So if Messi's goal stats are inflated by Atletico being shit (pretty sure Messi has also scored more against them after Simeone took over, too, but whatever) why weren't Ronaldo's when City and Tottenham were bad?
Messi's game can't be measured in goals and assists though and I find it ridiculous that you deliberately ignore that and essentially say "more goals = better performance". Messi against Bayern in the 2015 CL campaign was exemplarilymuch, much better than anything Ronaldo did against them.
You are simply extremely selective in which matchs should count and which not. It is so plainly obvious that you don't look at the stats to form an opinion. You have a conclusion already in mind and then look for stats to support it.
Their goal scoring stats are basically the same, so it's kind of pointless using them to differentiate the two.
If neither of them scored any goals, if you were to evaluate them on all the other things they can do in a game apart from scoring goals, I think we'd find that Messi contributes more to the game.
If neither of them scored any goals, if you were to evaluate them on all the other things they can do in a game apart from scoring goals, I think we'd find that Messi contributes more to the game.
I’m okay with people having different opinions, but not with made up facts.
It was posted just on the last page or 2 that Ronaldo does have more goals than Messi against the EPL top 6.
It’s well documented that Ronaldo started i a United side in transition and didn’t really come to his level until 2006, is it that difficult to explain his record against EPL teams wasn’t that good before then? Compare that with Messi starting out in the most dominant side in europe at the time? Who won the CL without needing him from the QF onwards?
You obviously have an opinion and choose to ignore all evidence to the contrary and just sprout BS about people who don’t share your view.
I’m okay with people having different opinions, but not with made up facts.
It was posted just on the last page or 2 that Ronaldo does have more goals than Messi against the EPL top 6.
It’s well documented that Ronaldo started i a United side in transition and didn’t really come to his level until 2006, is it that difficult to explain his record against EPL teams wasn’t that good before then? Compare that with Messi starting out in the most dominant side in europe at the time? Who won the CL without needing him from the QF onwards?
You obviously have an opinion and choose to ignore all evidence to the contrary and just sprout BS about people who don’t share your view.
See, the most basic condition under which you can even make an argument for Cristiano being greater in the first place is that longevity is more important than peak performance. This is because Messi's 2011 was just insanely good and I haven't seen anyone in here denying that Ronaldo never reached these ridiculous heights.
So since you guys obviously rate longevity that much you'll understand that it feels a little bit inconsequent to ignore that Ronaldo reached the top level much later than Messi.
And no, I don't ignore "evidence" of the contrary. You can't expect me to quietly accept you applying double standards. That's not what I understand as accepting other opinions, that's simply BS.
Because I have fun messing with numbers for half an hour?.
I've watched them for more than half a thousand games in the last 15 years, it's not like I'm combing stats to prove a point, I have an idea on where to look to find differences.
Firstly, as I've said previously, I've seen Ronaldo play in the flesh for Man United dozens of times. I am not part of a 'Messi brigade'. All I am interested in is seeing sport played to the highest level possible. That's why I watch Messi, Federer (although if Djokovic goes past his records he will rightly be considered the best by most people), Ronnie O' Sullivan, and bits of pieces of other sports at the highest level. My friend is a chess grandmaster, and I can play reasonably well, so I will even look at Magnus Carlsen's games because he is the world champion and the best at what he does.There we go again with the typical Messi brigade respsonse, they're so sure of themselves and have only come to educate everyone else.
Secondly, I'm not trying to 'educate' anyone. As I have said in this thread previously, everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding who the best player in the world might be. It is not something that can be objectively proven. Someone could believe that Neymar is better than Messi and Ronaldo, and while I would consider that farcical, they are still entitled to their opinion. I personally believe Ronaldo deserved the Ballon d'Or more than Modric (although the criteria for deciding this joke award have become ridiculous), but I can't dismiss this decision out of hand, as Modric played well and I can see why someone might think he deserved it. I think that's a joke when you've got someone up front who's scored 44 in 44 games, but there you go.
I was just merely pointing out that I cannot concede that Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi because he just isn't. Simple observation and applying logic tells me that Messi is significantly better. If other people believe otherwise, or wish to believe otherwise, then that is up to them. But when I say Messi is better, and repeat the same reasons for this, it's not stubbornness, intransigence or fanboying. It's just my opinion. And many experts agree with me.
Ronaldo cannot do anything to change my opinion because he is not going to become a better footballer than Messi. I've seen them up against each other, both in parallel in the same league, and frequently on the same pitch, and Messi is clearly superior. It's not even particularly close. Ronaldo is a highly effective forward, whereas Messi has scored as many goals as Ronaldo, while contributing so much more, and clearly being the superior player technically.
There is no disgrace in that because I firmly believe Messi is the best footballer ever. This, as I said previously, is why so many pros, ex-pros, pundits and journalists are now proclaiming Messi to the greatest ever. They are not biased. They are not part of a 'Messi brigade'. They just have working eyeballs and are reporting what they have seen with them.
Unfortunately, if you happen to be a fan or follower of Ronaldo, this does not apply to him, and will not apply to him. He will spend the rest of his life, and certainly career, being compared to Messi, which is highly unfortunate for him (even though he has arguably encouraged this comparison). I honestly haven't seen anyone outside of Ronaldo fans tout the notion that he is the greatest player ever. Maybe someone has, but Messi has been put in this category far, far more by players, ex-players, pundits and journalists.
Which I absolutely understand because they are seeing the same thing with their eyes that I am seeing, which is that Messi is a genius on a football field. It frankly amazes me that anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi, but there you go, that's part of the rich tapestry of life, and the right that we have to form differing opinions.
I have never once said longevity is the key issue here, both have proved that beyond any of the other GOAT contenders.
It’s not double standards to rate the CL ahead of other competitions. It is false equivalence to claim the CDR is as important as the CL
Err... I will go with Cal on this one. Opinions aside his point on Ronaldo being voted better player than Messi 7 times out of the last 12 years holds more "objectiveness" than your so called "logical statements" highlighted above, from neutral point of views and for argument sake. But if you honestly think Messi is superior player, I have no problems with that.
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Frankly I’m okay with people having a different opinion. I just amazes me that people prefer to only look at Messi in his environment in La Liga and not take into account his impact or lack thereof outside his comfort zone.
Ronaldo has had a biggest impact on the 3 top leagues in the world, the CL and also his international side that Messi doesn’t have a hope of replicating.
That's because you're not actually interested in football. Messi has quite consistently looked the best player in the world, regardless of his team scraping their way to the cup trophy or not. There's all kind of ludicrous conclusions that could be drawn looking at results of cup competitions.
We just have a different opinion on what constitutes "the best", for me the best shows up on the biggest occasions consistently, not just looking amazing against the also-rans.
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