I don't think it's nailed for Ronaldo to win it after being so bad yesterday and against Bayern. If Messi performs like he did in last WC and Ronaldo has another bad WC, I actually think Messi will be favored by most. we'll see.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...verpool-champions-league-final-player-ratings
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-salah-champions-league-a8371046.html#gallery
Cristiano Ronaldo - 6 out of 10
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-real-madrid-player-ratings-12603664
Ronaldo 7
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/pics/sp...best-in-Champions-League-final-sportgalleries
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44267657
https://www.foxsports.com.au/footba...l/news-story/4dda8045ea1dfc602f7972e67d6dd7a0
https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...7-18-real-madrid-3-1-liverpool-player-ratings
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...-Champions-League-Bale-Ronaldo-sportgalleries
http://www.squawka.com/news/player-...-champions-league/1037435#Tcc3P0dDHzlF6jgA.97
http://www.squawka.com/news/ronaldo...was-12-months-ago-says-graeme-souness/1036420
If Real have any sense they will get rid of Ronaldo, not allow him to sign some ridiculous contract that completely overvalues him, and move heaven and earth to get Neymar. Then they would have the second best player in the world, behind Messi obviously.
Bale would produce as good, or possibly better, performances and results than Ronaldo if he was selected regularly, as he has done so when Ronaldo was rested. 21 goals in 39 appearances from the bench. If Bale was indulged to the degree that Ronaldo is, played every game, was allowed to take every free-kick, virtually every set-piece was aimed at him, he sulked every time someone else scored a goal or shot instead of passing to him, then I'm confident Bale would score as many as Ronaldo.
Except that Bale wouldn't do some of those things because he's a more mature human being.
BTW don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that over his career as a whole Bale is as good as Ronaldo. Obviously this is not the case, Ronaldo has been the second best player in the world over the last ten years. As it stands now, he is at least as good as Ronaldo, probably better, and certainly younger and a better long-term prospect.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-salah-champions-league-a8371046.html#gallery
Cristiano Ronaldo - 6 out of 10
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-real-madrid-player-ratings-12603664
Ronaldo 7
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/pics/sp...best-in-Champions-League-final-sportgalleries
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44267657
https://www.foxsports.com.au/footba...l/news-story/4dda8045ea1dfc602f7972e67d6dd7a0
https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...7-18-real-madrid-3-1-liverpool-player-ratings
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...-Champions-League-Bale-Ronaldo-sportgalleries
http://www.squawka.com/news/player-...-champions-league/1037435#Tcc3P0dDHzlF6jgA.97
http://www.squawka.com/news/ronaldo...was-12-months-ago-says-graeme-souness/1036420
It was never likely to come back to bite you on the bum because that's what he is now.
If Real have any sense they will get rid of Ronaldo, not allow him to sign some ridiculous contract that completely overvalues him, and move heaven and earth to get Neymar. Then they would have the second best player in the world, behind Messi obviously.
Bale would produce as good, or possibly better, performances and results than Ronaldo if he was selected regularly, as he has done so when Ronaldo was rested. 21 goals in 39 appearances from the bench. If Bale was indulged to the degree that Ronaldo is, played every game, was allowed to take every free-kick, virtually every set-piece was aimed at him, he sulked every time someone else scored a goal or shot instead of passing to him, then I'm confident Bale would score as many as Ronaldo.
Except that Bale wouldn't do some of those things because he's a more mature human being.
BTW don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that over his career as a whole Bale is as good as Ronaldo. Obviously this is not the case, Ronaldo has been the second best player in the world over the last ten years. As it stands now, he is at least as good as Ronaldo, probably better, and certainly younger and a better long-term prospect.
You know bitterness is strong when it leads to straight stupidity. What a perfect post to sum things up. Anyone who says Gareth Bale is a better player than Ronaldo can't just be doing it out of ignorance.
Saying Ronaldo takes every set piece is just lying given he's shared them through the season. Saying Ronaldo plays every game is just being bitter enough to not even care about the truth. Remember when Benzema was getting booed and couldn't score a goal to save his life? Who was the player who was on a hattrick and gave him a penalty... then Benzema picks up his form and ends up being decisive in the Champions League. So selfish and self-indulgent from Ronaldo.
Out of the 9 seasons he's been in Madrid they've had 5 years where they had a better season than Barcelona and overall I know which trophy haul Madrid fans would pick. Barcelona won the treble before he went to Madrid, Madrid went out 5-0 to Liverpool in the round of 16 and finished on 78 points... so Barcelona were in a clearly better state, they have spent more money than Madrid in these 9 years and Madrid have still been more successful. There is no group of fans that's been more deserving of this than Barcelona fans. One thing is for sure, if they pick Ronaldo instead of Quaresma in 2003 they'd have been the biggest club in the world by now instead of being in a position where they know they'll never catch up to Madrid.
May the stupidity and bitterness last for a very long time and hopefully it doesn't just come out when he has a poorer game. Although it might not last long given that if Madrid are smart they will sell Ronaldo and put Bale in his place since apparently Bale would produce the same if he just felt like it... despite the fact noone else in the whole world is as good at scoring goals as Cristiano Ronaldo.
Saying Ronaldo takes every set piece is just lying given he's shared them through the season. Saying Ronaldo plays every game is just being bitter enough to not even care about the truth. Remember when Benzema was getting booed and couldn't score a goal to save his life? Who was the player who was on a hattrick and gave him a penalty... then Benzema picks up his form and ends up being decisive in the Champions League. So selfish and self-indulgent from Ronaldo.
Out of the 9 seasons he's been in Madrid they've had 5 years where they had a better season than Barcelona and overall I know which trophy haul Madrid fans would pick. Barcelona won the treble before he went to Madrid, Madrid went out 5-0 to Liverpool in the round of 16 and finished on 78 points... so Barcelona were in a clearly better state, they have spent more money than Madrid in these 9 years and Madrid have still been more successful. There is no group of fans that's been more deserving of this than Barcelona fans. One thing is for sure, if they pick Ronaldo instead of Quaresma in 2003 they'd have been the biggest club in the world by now instead of being in a position where they know they'll never catch up to Madrid.
May the stupidity and bitterness last for a very long time and hopefully it doesn't just come out when he has a poorer game. Although it might not last long given that if Madrid are smart they will sell Ronaldo and put Bale in his place since apparently Bale would produce the same if he just felt like it... despite the fact noone else in the whole world is as good at scoring goals as Cristiano Ronaldo.
There were a few Real Madrid supporters posting last night on this very board that would be OK offloading Ronaldo this summer and getting in Neymar - what does that tell you?
He still scores a lot of goals but his overall game just isn't up to standard any more.
He still scores a lot of goals but his overall game just isn't up to standard any more.
There are Madrid fans that want Modric off, Madrid fans that want Ronaldo off, Madrid fans that want Kroos off, etc... the players that scored the goals yesterday have been booed at their own stadium throughout the season, that's how it works. If a player has 2 poorer games in a row they might aswell be dead.
If Madrid buy Neymar it wouldn't take a full season before there were Madrid fans that wanted him gone too.
I will never understand why people pay that much importance to team trophies in an individualistic comparison. Marcelo scoring a screamer against Munich doesn't make Ronaldo a better footballer, just like Iniesta and Xavi controlling the midfield have no influence on Messi as an individual. Of course they allow them to shine more but put them in another team and they are still the very same human beings with the same strengthes and weaknesses just with different team mates.
I mean, not even the most die hard Cristiano supporters claim that the current Ronaldo is better than the version of his late United/early Madrid years. Yet the late Ronaldo is the one who won three of his four Ballon D'Ors and four of his five CLs. Cristiano just happened to play in a good but not great Madrid team during his prime years while Messi is currently "wasting" his late 20's to early 30's in an underwhelming Barca side. But this doesn't say anything about their individual qualities. For a long time it looked like Messi was much more lucky with his team than Ronaldo (and I still think that Pep's Barca was the best club team ever during their [shorter] peak) but as of now it seems that Cristiano will have spent more seasons in the best team in the world once he ends his career since Madrid's dominance lasted longer. But again, this doesn't have any influence on their individual qualities.
And it is the same with this title. I find it really odd how many people change their opinion or see the fifth CL title as a confirmation just because of this one single game in which Ronaldo didn't even perform. It is just such a lazy evaluation. He literally provided no arguments for him being the best in his last four CL games. Not even goals to overshadow generally weak matches. People like VancouverUtdFan claim that this title definitely settled the debate but I wonder what Ronaldo did that would justify such a conclusion? Playing among better team mates who stepped up when they were needed? If anything, Ronaldo's last four games should have made him question his opinion. At best, we are at the same point as six or seven weeks ago when Ronaldo scored that penalty against Turin.
I mean, not even the most die hard Cristiano supporters claim that the current Ronaldo is better than the version of his late United/early Madrid years. Yet the late Ronaldo is the one who won three of his four Ballon D'Ors and four of his five CLs. Cristiano just happened to play in a good but not great Madrid team during his prime years while Messi is currently "wasting" his late 20's to early 30's in an underwhelming Barca side. But this doesn't say anything about their individual qualities. For a long time it looked like Messi was much more lucky with his team than Ronaldo (and I still think that Pep's Barca was the best club team ever during their [shorter] peak) but as of now it seems that Cristiano will have spent more seasons in the best team in the world once he ends his career since Madrid's dominance lasted longer. But again, this doesn't have any influence on their individual qualities.
And it is the same with this title. I find it really odd how many people change their opinion or see the fifth CL title as a confirmation just because of this one single game in which Ronaldo didn't even perform. It is just such a lazy evaluation. He literally provided no arguments for him being the best in his last four CL games. Not even goals to overshadow generally weak matches. People like VancouverUtdFan claim that this title definitely settled the debate but I wonder what Ronaldo did that would justify such a conclusion? Playing among better team mates who stepped up when they were needed? If anything, Ronaldo's last four games should have made him question his opinion. At best, we are at the same point as six or seven weeks ago when Ronaldo scored that penalty against Turin.
Messi has been the best player so far in 2018, quite comfortably. In the one match he didn’t perform, his team (as they almost never do) didn’t bail him out. With CRonaldo it's the opposite. Don't think I've ever seen a star player of his team be so poor in the closing stages of a CL winning campaign. That he didn't score I have no problem with. It's him doing absolutely nothing with the ball besides laying it off to the nearest player and running into the box 9 times out of 10 that he is involved in the play.
The World Cup will determine the winner of the ballon d’or this year.
"maybe they should call it the CR7 Champions League".
This is why, for all his talent, Ronaldo is the biggest tit in world football.
They should call this year's edition the Karius Kup imo
This is why, for all his talent, Ronaldo is the biggest tit in world football.
They should call this year's edition the Karius Kup imo
Messi? 
As usual, when he doesn't score he is useless.
This is a thing people write pretty much only about Ronaldo. Comes right up there with, "if you take away all the goals he scored, he doesn't do much of anything."
What does it mean exactly? Someone said upthread that he had 54 touches, 36 passes and a 91% pass completion. Sounds like he played his position and didn't score.
Yes, Ronaldo plays exactly like he did in 2013 or 2014... late Ronaldo
Also, it's 5 Ballon D'Ors now. Going for his sixth.
Winning matters, especially when you are the star player and the number of titles will always play a part in how people judge players. If LeBron puts up 50 tonight and loses he'll get less praise than if he puts up 50 and wins. This is definitely controversial but going into the World Cup I wouldn't trade this version of Ronaldo for the 2008 one. His experience and the leadership that he'll bring to the lockerroom are far more valuable than the pace he lost and I believe that even if it doesn't translate directly into his performances it will make others better, especially our young players.
It's the same for managers, if Klopp had done the exact same but won the game he'd be rated higher than he is now that he lost. It's a team game, you depend on others but you have influence on them too especially when you have as much power as Ronaldo does. And before you misunderstand me, that doesn't mean winning team trophies is the only thing that matters or even the most important thing, obviously.
Messi had games where he played worse than the Roma game... the difference is if Barcelona win it doesn't matter. I guarantee you that if Manolas hadn't scored the third goal Messi wouldn't have gotten one single bit of criticism about that performance. Maybe one day people's standards for Messi can be as high as their standards for Ronaldo
And this is a thing that people only write about Ronaldo; summarising his all round performance on three arbitary stats when anyone who watched the game saw he misplaced passes, got dispossessed, couldn't take it past Lovren and missed the chances that he had.
The reason people say those things about Ronaldo is because it's largely true, his game now is to lay the ball off to the nearest teammate and run into the box to await a cross. This is what he usually does most games except he's normally more clinical, so when he doesn't score his average allround game isn't masked over. Technically, he isn't as good as a number of his team mates (passing, close control, touch etc) - that's why it seems strange for people call him the best player in the world when he clearly doesn't even have the mastery of the ball that some of his team mates have. One of the greatest goalscorers of all time, with an outstanding will to win and a very smart player, but individually he isn't as good as Messi.
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And yet Messi couldn't get his team to win the CL for the last how many years? He must have a) done nothing, or b) misplaced passes, got dispossessed, couldn't take it past <players> and missed the chances that he had in those game (or worse, failed to do that in a runup game). Which was it? In 2018, 2017, 2016, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010?
Wow that's a lot of years of doing nothing, getting dispossessed, not getting past players and missing chances.
What on earth are you on about?
Yes, Ronaldo plays exactly like he did in 2013 or 2014... late Ronaldo
Also, it's 5 Ballon D'Ors now. Going for his sixth.
Well, the 2013/2014 Ronaldo was probably more active but his playing style had already changed. The criticism of him being a pure goalscorer had already started in this season and many people pointed out how anonymous he was in the final against Atletico.
You are right about the Ballon D'Ors, I guess. Still not really interested in this trophy.
Yes, that's exactly what I described and criticized. Just because that's how people behave doesn't change the fact that it still makes no sense that they judge individual quality based on team accomplishments and it never will. As I said, it is just lazy evaluation.
Fair claim and I think there is much truth in it but we are not talking about greatest leaders but greatest players. I was amazed how Ronaldo lead that Portugal side in 2016 but that doesn't change the fact that the younger and probably more immature and self-centered Ronaldo was the better footballer.
Messi had games where he played worse than the Roma game... the difference is if Barcelona win it doesn't matter. I guarantee you that if Manolas hadn't scored the third goal Messi wouldn't have gotten one single bit of criticism about that performance. Maybe one day people's standards for Messi can be as high as their standards for Ronaldo
I don't think people apply lesser standards to Messi than to Ronaldo. It is simply Ronaldo's playing style. His game is primarily focused on scoring for quite some time now. He purposely traded his dribblings and runs for being a bigger goal threat. But if he doesn't manage to put the ball in the back of the net, he is completely anonymous. Messi is never that invisible since he at least tries things on his own, drops deep to carry the ball forward himself instead of waiting for it to come to him.
People accept that if the player is a striker to some degree. Van Nistelrooy e.g. was never really criticized for being a poacher. Modern cases are Lewandowski, Higuain, Cavani, Suarez etc. But such players were never be considered the best in the world. People expect more from Ballon D'Or candidates, primarily individual influence on the game.
If Messi would play the way Cristiano plays, he would get the same reactions. And if we are speaking of Argentina, it is a completely different ball game. Messi is carrying the team for years at this point, dragged them to three finals and is still criticized by everyone and their mothers. Madrid's fans may be extremely picky and critical but they have nothing on the Argentinian people.
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This is not true. He was injured for the final and only then after that injury that was aggravated by the WC did he noticeably change his style of play. 2013/14 had been his best season ever up until that injury. Everyone agreed he'd easily been the best player in the world that season.
I still think they'd have won the treble if he doesn't get injured.
It doesn't make any sense to take it as the sole method of evaluation but it does make sense to give consideration to it. Especially when you are the star player of that team since a star players' impact on the team will go beyond what we see on the pitch.
You are separating the mental side of the game from how good they are as footballers and I don't quite agree with that. He's a forward but in 2016 he was the one organizing our players in defensive set pieces at times for example which is something I'd never thought I'd see him do back in his prime years. The way him and Santos handled the press conferences and made everyone believe was great and it was important to integrate the new players too.
I have criticized him for the opposite before, especially during the Queiroz' years so I do think having this version of Cristiano gives more to the team for a tournament like the World Cup than a 22 or 23 year old version of him would.
Yeah because he's carrying them to disappointment and he's the captain of a team that plays with no balls. Getting to Copa America finals and losing to Chile is not a good achievement, especially in years where Brazil were bad. People are critical because he's not as good for Argentina as he is for Barcelona and the team keeps disappointing.
Van Nistelrooy, Suarez, Cavani, Higuain didn't score as many goals while leading teams to huge accomplishments. People do not expect more from a Ballon D'Or winner like you claim, which is why Ronaldo keeps winning it and being in contention for it. Suarez would have most definitely been in contention for it in one or two seasons too if he hadn't behaved the way he did. In 2001 Michael Owen won it with Raul finishing second. Even Van Nistelrooy wasn't too far away in 2003. And I was joking about the standards part, hence the smilie.
Saying that Ronaldo is anonymous if he doesn't put the ball in the back of the net while it's the opposite for Messi is just not true. The difference there is if Ronaldo plays a few sideways passes he's anonymous, if Messi plays a few sideways passes then he's part of the build up. There are dozens of games in the past few years where Ronaldo was the man of the match without scoring a goal. It is also true that those games are getting rarer but when you score more goals than anyone else in the world it's only natural.
You say that likes it’s bad thing. The guys 34 years old, he’s lost that yard of pace he once had. He’s adapted his game and is still scoring goals for fun. 44 goals again this season wins the Champions League.
I find it baffling that people try to discredit him. There is still a clear gap with Messi and Ronaldo and anyone else in world football. Ronaldo being 34, most players at his age are winding down in the MLS or Asia.
Seemed pretty clear -- seems like there's a big range between "when he doesn't score he is useless" and "but individually he isn't as good as Messi". Especially since Barca is losing in the CL with Messi, it probably would have helped if Messi'd scored more goals.
Another take on this...Messi tries things, and drops deep. His team loses multiple years running now, maybe someone should suggest that what he does is useless? Ronaldo's team has won 3 CL finals in a row, maybe what Ronaldo does helps his team win.
It's incredible what he's doing especially at his age but we're comparing him with a 30 year old Messi as of now, not MLS players - Ronaldo at 34 might be a better player than Messi at 34, but I don't think the current Ronaldo is as good as current Messi. That's what I'm arguing as that's what this thread is about.
Ronaldo in 15 years - 5 Champion Leagues
Barcelona (how many years?) - 5 Champion Leagues
Barcelona (how many years?) - 5 Champion Leagues
8 touches and 12 shots made it pretty suspicious...
I'm guessing he just copied it from some guy on twitter. It always baffles me how people just make up stuff like this
I'm the type of guy who can't stand those people and too fall for it myself is embarrassing.
You know bitterness is strong when it leads to straight stupidity. What a perfect post to sum things up. Anyone who says Gareth Bale is a better player than Ronaldo can't just be doing it out of ignorance.
Saying Ronaldo takes every set piece is just lying given he's shared them through the season. Saying Ronaldo plays every game is just being bitter enough to not even care about the truth. Remember when Benzema was getting booed and couldn't score a goal to save his life? Who was the player who was on a hattrick and gave him a penalty... then Benzema picks up his form and ends up being decisive in the Champions League. So selfish and self-indulgent from Ronaldo.
Out of the 9 seasons he's been in Madrid they've had 5 years where they had a better season than Barcelona and overall I know which trophy haul Madrid fans would pick. Barcelona won the treble before he went to Madrid, Madrid went out 5-0 to Liverpool in the round of 16 and finished on 78 points... so Barcelona were in a clearly better state, they have spent more money than Madrid in these 9 years and Madrid have still been more successful. There is no group of fans that's been more deserving of this than Barcelona fans. One thing is for sure, if they pick Ronaldo instead of Quaresma in 2003 they'd have been the biggest club in the world by now instead of being in a position where they know they'll never catch up to Madrid.
May the stupidity and bitterness last for a very long time and hopefully it doesn't just come out when he has a poorer game. Although it might not last long given that if Madrid are smart they will sell Ronaldo and put Bale in his place since apparently Bale would produce the same if he just felt like it... despite the fact noone else in the whole world is as good at scoring goals as Cristiano Ronaldo.
Since when were Barcelona ever in a positon to catch up with Madrid, domestically and in Europe since the start of Ronaldo's career we have been well behind. In terms of domestic performances we are getting closer but recent CL wins have put the gap where it was before pretty much.
Back in 2011 it looked far from impossible but Barcelona having a generation of Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pedro, etc. come out of the academy only to barely catch up with Madrid at all has to be seen as a disappointment. I don't think we'll ever see so much talent come out of a club's academy in such a short period of time.
Domestically we have made ground. It's Europe where the status quo remains the same. I still think Pep's Barca underacheived, certainly very capable of matching the 3 CLs in a row but faltered so kudos to Madrid on that front. Overall not too bad.
Ronaldo in 15 years - 5 Champion Leagues
Barcelona (how many years?) - 5 Champion Leagues
Real Madrid in the last 5 years - 4 Champions Leagues
Man Utd (how many years?) - 3 Champions Leagues
Guess Messi would be very happy if he wouldn't have to drop deep for Barca and Argentina and play the role he had under Guardiola but unfortunately these teams look absolutely helpless if he doesn't do it. He carries both teams right now and if he doesn't step up, they tend to lose their games.
Useless is by the way the wrong term. What he does isn't useless because he won countless games for Barcelona and Argentina this way. But the general approach is of course not sustainable. Being that dependent on a single player is not healthy. As great as Messi was from 2009 to 2012 under Guardiola, Barca was never really dependent on him just like Real Madrid doesn't need Ronaldo to win as proven against Bayern and Liverpool. Both teams would have been completely capable of winning the CL even without their stars. Such players turn very, very good teams into absolutely great ones but they can't turn an average team into a worldclass squad.
Real Madrid in the last 5 years - 4 Champions Leagues
Man Utd (how many years?) - 3 Champions Leagues
Chelsea 1?
Real Madrid in the last 5 years - 4 Champions Leagues
Man Utd (how many years?) - 3 Champions Leagues
Incredibly rich coming from a Chelsea fan
I never normally get involved in the Messi/Ronaldo debate. It’s a bit like the old Beatles/Stones borefest (Beatles every time for me).
But after watching last night, Ronaldo has clearly gone. Like when I used to ref in the Sunday Leagues and every now and then I’d be running alongside a player who was obviously good in years gone by, but was being carried by younger players.
Good luck to him, but surely that game should finally put to bed any possibility that we get him back.
Let’s just remember those golden years 2007 to 2010.
But after watching last night, Ronaldo has clearly gone. Like when I used to ref in the Sunday Leagues and every now and then I’d be running alongside a player who was obviously good in years gone by, but was being carried by younger players.
Good luck to him, but surely that game should finally put to bed any possibility that we get him back.
Let’s just remember those golden years 2007 to 2010.
Your argument is weak. By your logic, Ronaldo is responsible for losing La liga all these years and clearly what he is doing is not working.
You also make it seem as if Ronaldo single single handedly dragged Real to the last 4 champions league titles all by himself. And while he is usually fantastic in the CL and the knockout stages, he has been poor in every final except in 2016/2017. He was invisible in 2013/2014, Ramos bailed Real out in 93rd with a header and then Ronaldo scored a late penalty when the game was already over. Invisible in 2015/2016 except for scoring the final penalty in the penalty shootout which happened thanks to Ramos scoring in normal time and Griezmann missing a penalty. Invisible last night but again winning.
Modric, Marcelo and Ramos have been more important in the CL finals than Ronaldo for Real. The thing is, Real have a better squad than Barcelona (and some luck) to win even when Ronaldo is poor. The same can't be said for Barcelona and Messi.
So looking past the team achievements, which really isn't only down to one player no matter how good they are, most seasons both Ronaldo and Messi have almost equal amount of goals and roughly the same amount of assists. Call it a tie, but in every other offensive stat Messi smashes Ronaldo in terms of pre-assists, successful dribbles, chances created, key passes etc. Could also talk about Ronaldo being a dedicated striker with little to no involvement in build ups and his reliance on his team to score, which is basically the opposite for Messi.
Hats off to Ronaldo and Real for a historic achievement that might never be matched, but individually, Messi remains the better player.
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Well, if Messi hadn't held the club ransom and if he wasn't earning twice as much as Ronaldo he might have had better players around him... In the summer it's going to be Higuain taking the blame if Argentina do poorly despite everyone knowing why Icardi stayed at home and why Dybala will be on the bench.
Messi's teammates are world class for club and very good for country, if the team looks useless at certain aspects of the game it's because they aren't adapting to get the best out of them. Argentina are a squad that would be more suited to play pressing and counterattacking football that's playing slow possession football. Why is that?
You are right about Messi's wages and I don't want to deny that the club would have more financial freedom if he wasn't demanding that much. However, Barca was still rich enough to buy players like Suarez and Neymar. The thing is, the transfer strategy wasn't really on point and abandoned their philosophy. Barcelona never really cared to adequately replace Xavi and Iniesta. They didn't bother buying someone like Gündogan, Modric, Kroos, Özil, Isco, Götze or Verratti early on when they had the chance and let Thiago go instead of giving him the trust he needed.
Pressing and counterattacking football is no clever strategy for a team that wants to win a title. It is a concept played by underdog teams that are aware of the fact that their player material is inferior to their opponent.
And why on earth shouldn't Argentina have the players required for a possession based system? City is playing a midfield consisting of de Bruyne, Silva and Fernandinho. Only Silva played in such a system before. Mascherano and Biglia can play the defensive part while Dybala, Lo Celso, Banega and Di Maria can play the two positions before that.
They always had the players to facilitate such a system and in fact Pekerman did it with Argentina already in 2006. They were something like the predecessors of Spain with not nearly as talented players.
But after his departure, Argentina never had a coach that would get the best out of this squad or even install a fitting system.
By the way, you are pretty naive if you think Higuain gets more criticism than Messi in Argentina. All the pressure is on him. He is the only star player that performs for Argentina and he even gets the blame for his team mates not replicating their club performances in the national team. The best example is his game against Chile which was brillant by any players standards and good even for his, yet he was slaughtered for it and blamed for the defeat - completely hilarious. If you ask me, this is also highly related to Maradona criticizing him at almost every occasion in order to a) prevent him from being regarded as highly as he is as a player and b) to mask his own shortcomings as the joke of a national coach he was.
Ronaldo in 15 years - 5 Champion Leagues
Barcelona (how many years?) - 5 Champion Leagues
Messi has won 4 though and wouldn't surprise me if he adds another.
To answer your last paragraph, that is normal. If you're the star player you get more pressure. That's a good thing. Messi's the star and captain of a team that keep crumbling in big moments, of course he's going to get a lot of criticism. If the results are good you get all the love, if the results are bad you get all the blame. It was the same for Ronaldo and Eusebio was to Ronaldo what Maradona is to Messi, there's the difference that Eusebio never criticized Ronaldo but Benfica and older fans certainly did. Messi and Ronaldo have A LOT of power in what happens for their national teams and they're more responsible for what happens to the team than just their individual perfrormances on the pitch. The criticism Messi gets from argentinians is the same criticism Ronaldo was getting from portuguese people from Queiroz' appointment until Euro 2012. Even now we won our first title ever and there are loads of portuguese people who don't like Ronaldo, the media treats him like he's the Pope but a lot of people don't.
I say Argentina are more suited to a more transition based game because their midfield obviously doesn't have the quality to control games against the teams they'll have to beat to win a World Cup.
'Pressing and counterattacking football is no clever strategy for a team that wants to win a title.' - why not? It's definitely more clever than what the hell has been going on in Argentina the past couple of years. That squad is full of players underperforming and it's not magic that all the players suddenly turn worse when playing in their shirt. Messi feels like a foreign player in that team and it seems like instead of him being the one adapting to the team, it's the team that's adapting to him. They slow the game down way too often like they're Barcelona but then to break down teams Messi looks like he's on a different wave length to everyone else. Sometimes it works because he's obviously great and it may work in the World Cup too but the truth is it fails to get the best out of that squad, then you have people claiming Messi has a lot of responsabilities and he's carrying the team when there's no reason why he'd have to do that. Messi playing the role he's been playing is not a good thing for the team.
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