He's a good squad option when he plays like he did today. That's about that.
McTominay - what’s his potential?
- Thread starter simplyared
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Found his level today.
You are just wrong
McTomminay is marginally better at attacking and is better in the air (which does not show here) but Fred is clearly the superior DM
You are just wrong
McTomminay is marginally better at attacking and is better in the air (which does not show here) but Fred is clearly the superior DM
This
Today he had a good game. But it's Fulham.
Not mental at all. Some mad overreaction from you there
First why would you assume its only to fit him. We need a DM badly, who would work well with any of our other midfielders to get more out of them. This could be without McTominay factored in at all.
Secondly its more about getting the most out of the strengths of the players we have. James for example is frankly limited, but would you call it mental for us to play him in odd games vs slower defenders/teams with high line, oh no we can't set up to fit a limited player right! Using players in roles more suited is hardly something unheard of.
Where's the graphic for being dribbled past more than any other player in Europe? Does this little wheel have room for the amount of points cost and/or tournaments crashed out of? He probably gets credit for a "pressure" on this graphic for being out of position today chasing their center back as Anguissa receives the ball in space in the middle in the build up to their goal. Just a dreadful player by anyone's measure regardless of what "Crab Stats" says.
But this is a thread about McTomminay's potential-- To which I'm very much looking forward to watching him develop alongside another, more capable, midfielder.
You are just wrong
McTomminay is marginally better at attacking and is better in the air (which does not show here) but Fred is clearly the superior DM
It’s not even that close apart from goals. I don’t get how people can’t see how important Fred has been to most of the really good moments we’ve had this season but i can understand if they don’t like his style. Can we get someone to do what he does without quite so many mistakes? I hope so but I think it’s a case of the grass being greener when it comes to anyone else gettable in the PL apart from Tielemans. Imagine a rice and mct midfield? Would it even function? I could see it being very flat if Scott doesn’t improve on the ball. I think we probably need two new midfielders if we want to control games and build for the future.
Your assumption is wrong because the manager can still change his subs one second before the number shows up on the substitution board mate, so the manager could easily do that when he saw McTominay hurting and limping. McTominay walked straight to dressing room after being subbed, this countered your point about ’’he’d have shaken that off’’.
It was the right decision to sub him off, you do not want to risk a limping player to keep playing when there is final coming up in a week.
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Ignore the stats and use your eyes. You couldn’t be more wrong with your last few posts in this thread.
Although you are at least wrong in the right thread. McT is young enough that he could potentially end up like the player you’re describing. One day. In the season just gone Fred has been absolutely miles better. Despite his own obvious flaws.
You are just wrong
McTomminay is marginally better at attacking and is better in the air (which does not show here) but Fred is clearly the superior DM
Yep. I'm not really sure why a performance against a dreadful Fulham side is getting so much credit. They have been relegated for a reason. It is actually more proof that that is his level.
Strange to see people seem to be using it to show that McTominay is somehow better.
Defensively they are miles apart, which is really the main reason why you would have either of them in the team. Neither are great passers (Fred is better), but if you are looking for loads of creativity we have to look elsewhere.
Fred over McTominay for me.
This is the type of nonsense spewed by people who look at numbers but have absolutely no idea or appreciation of context and logic.
The reason Fred gets dribbled past so much is because he doesn't stop, he is tireless in his tracking. McTominay hides in games and is just generally absolutely useless as a defensive midfielder against non-relegation sides.
McTominay is a great bench option if we need to push up but he's got no place against a top team who will press the hell out of him. He's also nowhere near as young as people claim he is. He's (or will be) 25 this year, only 3 years younger than Fred. He's no Diallo or Greenwood or Garner. His qualities are well established and they're mostly physical, with little to no technical ability beyong a good shot outside the box.
People need to wake up. McTominay is an overrated Burnely player, putting on a red shirt because he is our youth product. Nothing more than a James Wilson in midfield.
You can back this up with the number of tackles attempted per 90.
McTominay only attempts about 2.6, which is miles behind a lot of midfielders. Fred attempts 5.3, which shows he is closing down the opposition far more often than McTominay.
Kante attempts 4.7, Ndidi attempts about 5.9, Jorginho 4.8, Allan 6.3, Neves 4.6. Just a few for reference to show how far off McTominay is in this regard.
Edit: corrected numbers.
I couldn’t agree less— don’t think either have excelled this season, but I can’t think of a game where Fred has been influential in the way that Scott was against Leeds for example— too many of Fred’s notable games (atleast the ones that stick out in my mind) are the ones that have cost us dearly.
Fulham level
I don't think he's really a high potential player in terms of ability. He wasn't considered a stand out youth product. Which ultimately does not prove or disprove anything except to say coaches did not see him among the foremost talents, so it's a lot to do with his other attributes that he has got to where he is. I've always found the Fletcher comparison a little strange - they're Scottish midfielders. But McT is more physically imposing whereas Fletcher was actually a wonderful footballer when he came through the youth. Okay compared to Scholes and co he was seen as more of a water carrier but he was a fair bit more skilled than McTominay.
He's not going to become a highly technical, midfield maestro, is he? We just need to continue to refine him and use the attributes he does have. If we do that he'll have a decent career with us and find a role in this squad as somebody we can turn to for a combative role and as a squad player - this looks to be his potential. Possibly he's a little above his station at the moment which is not his fault but it certainly doesn't mean he's useless, or can't improve.
He's not going to become a highly technical, midfield maestro, is he? We just need to continue to refine him and use the attributes he does have. If we do that he'll have a decent career with us and find a role in this squad as somebody we can turn to for a combative role and as a squad player - this looks to be his potential. Possibly he's a little above his station at the moment which is not his fault but it certainly doesn't mean he's useless, or can't improve.
Indeed. Numbers can be revealing if you look at the whole picture, not some random stat, so you can fanboy about some imaginary player.
Another interesting stat is to look at the number of passess attempted in games. Fred usually has 2x what McTominay has, even though they play side-by-side.
As I said, I don't blame McTominay. He's only playing because we're saving money and lack the quality to get him out of the team. Although I think DvdB cannot be much worse and if the Donnie gets as many minutes he'll easily show he's miles better in that position. The same way Fred made his way into the team by getting consecutive games.
Fred runs. Thats really about it. If I wasnt so unfit nowadays I could probably do a similar job on the pitch.
McTominay has far more about him and has a lot more potential in this side. He has been shackled by having to operate as a DM when it is plain for all to see that he is far more effective in a box-to-box role. A proper holding midfielder next to him, and we would see a good looking partnership.
Conversely, I have no idea what sort of player you would need to put next to Fred in order to end up with any sort of decent midfield. He doesnt offer anything going forward, but is also prone to at least 1-2 major defensive blunders every single game. There is no way to build a team around that.
Even if you ignore that McTominay is homegrown (which both for romantic and practical reasons, is a factor), he plainly has a lot more to his game than Fred. He is also competent playing at CB.
McTominay has far more about him and has a lot more potential in this side. He has been shackled by having to operate as a DM when it is plain for all to see that he is far more effective in a box-to-box role. A proper holding midfielder next to him, and we would see a good looking partnership.
Conversely, I have no idea what sort of player you would need to put next to Fred in order to end up with any sort of decent midfield. He doesnt offer anything going forward, but is also prone to at least 1-2 major defensive blunders every single game. There is no way to build a team around that.
Even if you ignore that McTominay is homegrown (which both for romantic and practical reasons, is a factor), he plainly has a lot more to his game than Fred. He is also competent playing at CB.
This is the type of nonsense spewed by someone failing to read the entire discussion.
Scroll up— my post is refuting those very same numbers without the context and logic you’re so passionate about. I agree with you— The CrabStats pinwheel assumes something as abstract as “pressures” is equal to goals or assists. The guy who plays every match but only averages about a goal a year can somehow look great on these graphics. Put the ball at his feet and watch what he does with it though.
Great post, this.
I thought McTominay was very ordinary at CB when he played there. I'm not sure he has the nous for that any time soon, both him and Fred are quite naive when it comes to tracking runners and decision making in the defensive third, you wouldn't want to export that weakness into the backline. Maybe long-term he could play in a back 3 towards the back end of his career when he sees the game a little better. That is possible as obviously he has the mobility, the passing ability, the physique to do it and it could be a natural progression with experience.
Are you seriously trying to argue McT is a better defensive player because he's scored a handful more goals? I mean this just shows a total lack of awareness what a player in his position is expected to do.
And no, McT is not the better player. That is all I will say to you because you love spouting your opinion as if it's some sort of fact.
There is simply no way McTominay is better than Fred.
I don't even know how anyone can argue that without coming off extremely biased.
This idea that McTominay has huge potential and he needs another midfielder partner to truly unlock it is laughable too.
I don't even know how anyone can argue that without coming off extremely biased.
This idea that McTominay has huge potential and he needs another midfielder partner to truly unlock it is laughable too.
Credits where its due eh,
We're second because of these 2 consistently performing for us. Had the forwards scored all of the missed chances this season, we've been higher on the table.
They both are the types of midfielders modern teams striving to have, hardworking box to box duo.
Cut out all this bs nonsense about traditional DM, DLP, that's all in the past now. You run more, you reap the rewards as midfielders.
We're second because of these 2 consistently performing for us. Had the forwards scored all of the missed chances this season, we've been higher on the table.
They both are the types of midfielders modern teams striving to have, hardworking box to box duo.
Cut out all this bs nonsense about traditional DM, DLP, that's all in the past now. You run more, you reap the rewards as midfielders.
He was dynamic and physical as usual but the boy can't pass. He's a CM who can't pass.
Good squad player but will never be a Busquets or Xabi Alonso.
The same people who will disagree with me are the ones who insisted players like Tom Cleverly and Anderson were the level we needed.
The same people who will disagree with me are the ones who insisted players like Tom Cleverly and Anderson were the level we needed.
You think they're the main reason we're 2nd?
Many factors of course, but they are one of them. We hardly lose when they are performing.
Other factors, such as Shaw's form, Bruno's brilliance and Maguire's stability. Only our forwards are underperforming this season.
He's a nice option to have for a squad player but we really should be improving on him if we want to challenge for the league and CL title.
We will know whether he is a man worth to be our starting XI quality or no by next season when he hits 25 years old in my opinion. Darren Fletcher was the same in 08/09 season when he started to hit his best. Let's see, and if we don't see much improvement next season by February, I don't think he will ever be good enough.
Correct.
Come on, the "hes not performing because x player is holding him back" is such a lazy take.
People on here have been banging on about Kante and Ndidi for years and Fred are producing the same kind of numbers, but apparently when its your own players that kind of graft goes unappreciated by a lot of fans.
I really, really want McTominay to succeed here because i love his attitude, but homegrown or not, his performances does not warrant a place in the first xi. McTominay is obviously more of a goal threat but in terms of DM play (interceptions, blocks, tackles, pass%) Fred outperforms him
Seems to have become a Fred vs McTominay thread right now
Both have strengths and weaknesses
Fred: Works very hard, excellent in high pressure on opponents, stealing possession. Carries forward pretty well into space, but passing can be poor. Finishing terrible. Very little forward end product, assists or goals or line splitting passes. Defensively fails tracking runs, main thing which makes him unsuitable as DM as well as his pressure style being high risk, liable to let them clear past on failure. Much more suited to be the second defensive minded player but doesn't have that person to play with.
McTominay: Lots of stamina. Puts in defensive work but much lower numbers than Fred. Very good long shooting but being played defensively doesn't get to make runs to the edge of the box to make use of it. Relatively poor at covering breaks positionally. Reasonable at using his physique to hold the ball and turn on it to deal with pressure. Has an eye for a nice diagonal or good through ball even if he doesn't do as often as I think he should but overall general passing is just ok. Height is an advantage but doesn't get as many headed goals as he should.
The combination is a set of two players that compared to a pure DM and good passing MC combo is about 2/3 the defensive contribution and 2/3 the passing contribution, 1/2 the creative attack contribution and 1/2 the defensive stability of that combination. And both players play would improve paired with a DM, but McTominay would improve more as he is less effectively used currently.
Both have strengths and weaknesses
Fred: Works very hard, excellent in high pressure on opponents, stealing possession. Carries forward pretty well into space, but passing can be poor. Finishing terrible. Very little forward end product, assists or goals or line splitting passes. Defensively fails tracking runs, main thing which makes him unsuitable as DM as well as his pressure style being high risk, liable to let them clear past on failure. Much more suited to be the second defensive minded player but doesn't have that person to play with.
McTominay: Lots of stamina. Puts in defensive work but much lower numbers than Fred. Very good long shooting but being played defensively doesn't get to make runs to the edge of the box to make use of it. Relatively poor at covering breaks positionally. Reasonable at using his physique to hold the ball and turn on it to deal with pressure. Has an eye for a nice diagonal or good through ball even if he doesn't do as often as I think he should but overall general passing is just ok. Height is an advantage but doesn't get as many headed goals as he should.
The combination is a set of two players that compared to a pure DM and good passing MC combo is about 2/3 the defensive contribution and 2/3 the passing contribution, 1/2 the creative attack contribution and 1/2 the defensive stability of that combination. And both players play would improve paired with a DM, but McTominay would improve more as he is less effectively used currently.
Probably a good case to just shut the academy down tbh
Do you ever think of a thread you wished you never started? Bump!
Don’t worry, there are far worse. That said, I do feel this one has charted a somewhat inevitable course.
I'm not afraid to say that I like him.
He isnt a single fault in a line of perfection.
Much better than Cleverely, oshea, Jones and Fletcher in my eyes if he had the luck of being managed by SAF.
He isnt a single fault in a line of perfection.
Much better than Cleverely, oshea, Jones and Fletcher in my eyes if he had the luck of being managed by SAF.
I'd like to see him in the holding midfield role. He's definitely got more to offer.
Please no. It’s so clear he’s an able if unspectacular B2B but he should never ever ever be a holding midfielder. Problem for him is Fred is much better as a B2B than him and so he’s the most easily upgradable midfielder we have right now. Just imagine how much more balance we’d have with someone like Ndidi instead of McT. Just look at how much better we are structurally when old man Matic plays.
McT is a great squad player and versatile without being elite, I don’t think he should be starting though if our ambitions are to challenge for the league.
What makes you think he would have been better than Fletcher in particular?
Fletcher's talent was hugely rated as he came through the youth ranks, always a big stand-out. SAF even tried to get special dispensation to play him when he was still on a schoolboy contract, when he would have been the youngest player to ever play in our first team. Once he did break into the team he struggled for a few years, but that was at least partly due to his physical limitations (obviously not particularly fast and at that time he was very skinny and weak). By the time he was 24 he had stepped up and become a very good and important midfielder for us, that was unfortunately cut short because of his illness.
Meanwhile, McTominay was never particularly highly rated in the youth teams. Honestly he is big, a decent dribbler and has a good shot. That's about it. In most of the key aspects of being a midfielder he's below the average mid-table PL midfielder.
It's not just a question of manager, there's a significant difference in talent between them.