Matheus Cunha £62.5m release clause

[El Jefe]

Why are people saying Cunha is a lazy player?
Doesn't seem lazy when we play Wolves.

I honestly feel it's because of the walking stats that get trotted about.

When you watch him over full games it doesn't seem anywhere as bad as the stats make it.

I think he looks like a walker for two reasons. The first is he's constantly carrying the ball from his own half to the final third, that is tiring so the walking is him getting a bit of a breather before his next run, Yaya did this a lot too but Cunha isn't in midfield.

The second reason which is something I've seen a lot is he makes runs to get open as Wolves play a lot of counter attack and if the ball doesn't reach him in time he gets frustrated and has a strop and walks back. I recall either last season or this season Gary O'Neill or maybe the new manager telling him to improve his body language with teammates.

So while his walking can be annoying, I don't think it comes from laziness because he works very hard on and off the ball when I watch him but he can take breaks.

 

[Stig]

Cheers! Can someone summarise this?

They are all good and would fit United. Mbeumo, Chuna, and Kuivert in that order.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Doue is a winger/wide forward. I like him and think he could be an absolute beast but, he’s not and never will be a number 10.

Doue is essentially a Wirtz clone. I’d class Wirtz as a 10 but the modern 10 who has positional flexibility.

Doue interestingly has spent 40% of his time as a CM this season (Opta) but floats wide to find space as well as occupying central spaces.

He really is a Wirtz clone.

 

[Dion]

Ok.

1. Agreed he’s not world class quality but he’s very good and fits the profile of what we need and is comfortably above the PL average of most key metrics were interested in.
2. Disagree. I don’t think there a tonnes of potential Cunha level players around. Guessand is an example of a Cunha or better potential player I listed earlier. There are not loads of them.
3. I know what you are saying but it’s no more complex than some gambles work and many more don’t.
4. Again an obvious point, once a player shows their quality on the next level price inevitably rises. More players fail and so most of the time this doesn’t happen.
5. This is where your argument is a bit well moot and wrong. Of course it’s better to sign players before they have their standout season, but you’re arguing that players exist at 22/3 who have had several consistent performances at a good level? Also see quoted post below. Cunha wasn’t cheap.

To help here I think you should be able to point out a few 22/3 year olds currently playing who broadly fit that criteria? I gave you Guessand, Sudakov. I could throw in more if needed?

It depends what you consider comfortably above, he's 70th percentile across the top leaguesin a few things, but that includes a lot of backup players. As far as starting XI attacking midfielders/wingers go he's pretty middle of the pack apart from over-perfoming his xG.

You're again just deliberately ignoring the point I'm making, Kluivert didn't "show his level" until he moved to Bournemouth, Cunha didn't "show his level" until he moved to Wolves, Gordon didn't "show his level" until he moved to Newcastle. They all had clear upward progression though where their underlying data was proportionally good for their age and are generally under-valued because their output isn't elite. They then get picked up by a team who play to their strengths with a bit more quality, they improve a bit with age and their output jumps and their value suddenly get's noticed. Cunha wasn't cheap, but he was younger and likely had his 2 best years of his career at Wolves, and is now costing a lot more. Gordon wasn't 'cheap' when Newcastle bought him, Kulusevski wasn't 'cheap' when Spurs bought him. They were both a lot cheaper than Cunha is now and those clubs would get an extra 2 of those players best years. It's not like we're incapable of spotting those types of players, by all accounts we were after Dan Ndoye last year (although I assume his price has gone up now, and I have doubts about him fitting into Amorim's system.

Like I said, I'm not playing this game because it will get into a back and forth where you will argue "this player is left footed", "this player isn't tall enough", "This player isn't that good" etc. in an endlessly subjective game of whack-a-mole. I personally don't think Guessand's got anywhere near the technique to play in the middle (although I suspect he'd make a surprisingly good wingback under Amorim), I freely admit I haven't seen enough of him to really determine if he's 100% the right fit though and that's why me putting names out there is meaningless. He's clearly talented enough, but whether he fits the exact profile Amorim wants I have no idea. I've got the same thoughts about Cherki, who is obviously talented enough to be a good player for a CL challenging team, I just don't know if he fits exactly that role. But if you do think Ndoye, Cherki or Guessand or Sudakov fit the profile you want then it make far more sense to go out and pay half the price before they get picked up by a CL club from Spain/Italy or one of the PL clubs and their value explodes. Realistically you gain so little by waiting, it's just not worth paying the 50-100% markup. Playing the numbers game I'm 99% sure there's at least a handful of players out there who do fit Amorim's system, though I'd not be able to tell you who they were without digging around in some very expensive data sets.

So what you’re suggesting is to find 22/3 year olds whose level is good enough to start for United now, who have had several years of performing at other clubs with potential to improve?

What sort of fee do you think those players are available for?

Firstly, I think (as I've outlined above) "several years of performing at other clubs" means very different things to you than what it does in the way I'm suggesting. It doesn't mean 2 years of being an important player in the French League and then 2 more years at a Premier League club. It means a couple of years at a club where the performances probably don't look outwardly exceptional but have been clearly improving and there's clearly a lot of underlying positive qualities which are obvious at anything more than a surface glance. Struggles being either system or age related.

Well lets just look historically, right at the top end of that you've got Cunha at Wolves £43m~, Gordon £40m~, Kulusevski £38m~. Then there's a whole range of prices down from that, which I think it's probably unreasonable to expect United to pick up given the United tax is certainly still a thing, but they do exist. I'm much, much more comfortable with United going for that age and range of player than I am with them spending elite player money on someone who is clearly a level below an elite player just because he's a "good fit" and "Premier League proven". This is especially pertinent because I think Cunha is much more suited to Wolves' style than ours and Premier League proven just means his level isn't going to go up.

 

[Raoul]

I’m surprised that Orny said we will (try to) do the deal regardless of Champions League qualification

I strongly assumed we’d have different targets based on our budget and European Status

For example with no Europe, I thought we might take more “risks” and go for cheap, unproven players with potential.

We are probably going to go after the best players available irrespective of European qualification since we have a league to worry about as well. If the transfer budget Ratcliffe referenced during his recent interview is £100m (Cunha + Delap), then we will probably fund additional buys by selling players like Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Shaw, maybe Garnacho plus get the wages of Erisksen, Evans, and others off the books. All of that should free up another £75-100m to buy anyone else Amorim wants.

 

[Rainy nights in Stoke]

That's not the point. I really don't understand how to make this simpler, but I will try again.

1) Cunha isn't top quality, he's clearly the rung below that
2) Players on this trajectory are relatively common, they also have consistent performance bases that makes them easy to identify for clubs before they make a big move, if you have a professional scouting network. Part of this is because they're relatively very common.
3) Players of the right age (22-23~) to be about to make the step up to Cunha's level are generally under-valued compared to when they make the step up.
4) They're comparatively over-valued when they make the step up
5) It's much better to sign players who are slightly below Cunha's level at 22-23 because they're very common, already have established performance bases and are good value, than spend big on someone like Cunha


Garnacho, Amad, Kone, Obi - no. They're both clearly youth players who are signed to be developed and then eased in slowly, like the Da Silva twins.
Martial, Ronaldo, Anderson - Borderline. Age wise, no, but clearly was always going to be precocious. Nani probably fits here too
Depay - Slightly on the young side if we're being critical, but mostly just totally the wrong type of player for United at that time.

Park is the most classical example of this, he's old enough that you know exactly what you're going to get in terms of style of player, which fills a hole in the squad and know that he's not going to be massively disappointing because his base level of performance is there and established. Valencia would be another, Hernandez too. Kagawa you can add for balance as one that didn't work, since it falls down if you then opportunistically sign someone else who changes what profile you needed.

To be fair, what you're describing is essentially the sort of age profile (and we'd hope trajectory) we signed players in over the summer/winter, albeit with a slightly broader age-range:

• Dorgu (20) having a break-out season in Serie A in a position we need and with physical attributes we've been sorely lacking
• Zirkzee (23) on an upwards trajectory for Bologna+
• Ugarte (23 at time of signing) poor fit at PSG, but was thought could really thrive as a combative DM in our set-up
• Matthijs De Ligt (25) very solid defender for a long time, you'd imagine could take a further step at this point in his career

Then we've also signed a solid, steady player in Mazraoui and top-end potential in Yoro.

I actually think Cunha is potentially on the cusp of stepping it up another level. He's a player that has a lot of really good attributes and you could easily imagine something unlocking for him for him to become really prolific, i.e. in the Son, Bruno, Isak bracket of players. Maybe not quite Salah, KDB, Haaland level but not far off. Cunha's turning 26 this year and there have been plenty of examples of players stepping things up from that age. Dembele and Raphinha are two examples who have this season had a step-change in productivity at 27 and 28 years of age respectively. Granted, they were both very good before, but so is Cunha.

Not denying it's big money though, and I'd also like to see more signings in the 22-23 yo bracket with big step-up potential. If it were up to me the signings we'd be doing would be:

• 30-40% young top talent (17-20 year olds), no more than £30m a pop
• 40-50% established pro's on verge of break-throughs (22-26 year olds) preferably up to £40m but could go higher for special players
• >10% 26+ steady players (nothing fancy, but established pro's that can hold their own

We've been signing way too many players in the latter category in recent years

 

[UnofficialDevil]

This needs to be nipped in the bud on this forum & I’ll keep repeating it every time I see it. Cherki does not have a £25M release clause, it was a gentleman’s agreement and it was for January only. Cherki will cost a lot more than £25M in the Summer.

I'd happily pay 60 for Cherki.

 

[Dominos]

This needs to be nipped in the bud on this forum & I’ll keep repeating it every time I see it. Cherki does not have a £25M release clause, it was a gentleman’s agreement and it was for January only. Cherki will cost a lot more than £25M in the Summer.

It would be a bit odd for them to offer a gentleman's agreement for January, but not the summer no? What would be their motivation to let him go cheap in January but not the summer window?

 

[Dion]

To be fair, what you're describing is essentially the sort of age profile (and we'd hope trajectory) we signed players in over the summer/winter, albeit with a slightly broader age-range:

• Dorgu (20) having a break-out season in Serie A in a position we need and with physical attributes we've been sorely lacking
• Zirkzee (23) on an upwards trajectory for Bologna+
• Ugarte (23 at time of signing) poor fit at PSG, but was thought could really thrive as a combative DM in our set-up
• Matthijs De Ligt (25) very solid defender for a long time, you'd imagine could take a further step at this point in his career

Then we've also signed a solid, steady player in Mazraoui and top-end potential in Yoro.

I actually think Cunha is potentially on the cusp of stepping it up another level. He's a player that has a lot of really good attributes and you could easily imagine something unlocking for him for him to become really prolific, i.e. in the Son, Bruno, Isak bracket of players. Maybe not quite Salah, KDB, Haaland level but not far off. Cunha's turning 26 this year and there have been plenty of examples of players stepping things up from that age. Dembele and Raphinha are two examples who have this season had a step-change in productivity at 27 and 28 years of age respectively. Granted, they were both very good before, but so is Cunha.

Not denying it's big money though, and I'd also like to see more signings in the 22-23 yo bracket with big step-up potential. If it were up to me the signings we'd be doing would be:

• 30-40% young top talent (17-20 year olds), no more than £30m a pop
• 40-50% established pro's on verge of break-throughs (22-26 year olds) preferably up to £40m but could go higher for special players
• >10% 26+ steady players (nothing fancy, but established pro's that can hold their own

We've been signing way too many players in the latter category in recent years

I think Zirkzee definitely fits the description (although I'm not sure he actually fits in the team, but he'd clearly do a good job somewhere).
Dorgu is too young at this stage, but we paid a premium for him to come in in January, if you take that into account I think it's a reasonable punt on a player to see how he develops.
Ugarte and De Ligt are weird ones, technically speaking I'm talking about buying players before their "curve" starts to go up, where as Ugarte and De Ligt have had their full up and down very quickly and are still young enough that we're buying them on the way down hoping that we can get the second "peak". I don't hate that as a concept, but I'm not sure its the same thing (and I think Ugarte is just far too limited on the ball to play for United in a double pivot with a 10/2 10's in front of him, but he'd clearly do a job in a midfield 3 for some team).

 

[Borussia Teeth]

We are probably going to go after the best players available irrespective of European qualification since we have a league to worry about as well. If the transfer budget Ratcliffe referenced during his recent interview is £100m (Cunha + Delap), then we will probably fund additional buys by selling players like Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Shaw, maybe Garnacho plus get the wages of Erisksen, Evans, and others off the books. All of that should free up another £75-100m to buy anyone else Amorim wants.

I've seen you post this a few times now. NO ONE is buying Luke Shaw

 

[Rainy nights in Stoke]

I think Zirkzee definitely fits the description (although I'm not sure he actually fits in the team, but he'd clearly do a good job somewhere).
Dorgu is too young at this stage, but we paid a premium for him to come in in January, if you take that into account I think it's a reasonable punt on a player to see how he develops.
Ugarte and De Ligt are weird ones, technically speaking I'm talking about buying players before their "curve" starts to go up, where as Ugarte and De Ligt have had their full up and down very quickly and are still young enough that we're buying them on the way down hoping that we can get the second "peak". I don't hate that as a concept, but I'm not sure its the same thing (and I think Ugarte is just far too limited on the ball to play for United in a double pivot with a 10/2 10's in front of him, but he'd clearly do a job in a midfield 3 for some team).

Fair enough, I’m probably stretching your definition a bit far here in some of the cases. Though I think Ugarte has it in his locker to contribute more with the ball, especially in setting up quick transitions and closing down quickly when we lose possession high up the pitch (can help us play a more expansive game). He at least as potential to be as good as Palhinha I think. Casemiro wasn’t exactly noted for his attacking contributions either, but he’s been doing that piece quite well for us lately. Not saying it’s the same situation, only that a player who had predominantly defensive responsibilities might not be showing his full range.

De Ligts a weird one though, I agree. Was probably mostly signed because of EtH?

 

[Fortitude]

Somehow, I doubt we will go for Cherki after he grabed his balls pointing at the United fans, after he scored against us at Old Traford. I don't think that's something that Amorim would've liked to see.

That didn't happen. He did the gesture to his own fans and it was to indicate he has the cojones to stand up and be counted, as explained by French posters on here.

 

[MaMa given red]

I'd happily pay 60 for Cherki.

I think you have to ask yourself why no clubs were prepared to take a punt on Cherki for £20m in January?

 

[Dion]

Fair enough, I’m probably stretching your definition a bit far here in some of the cases. Though I think Ugarte has it in his locker to contribute more with the ball, especially in setting up quick transitions and closing down quickly when we lose possession high up the pitch (can help us play a more expansive game). He at least as potential to be as good as Palhinha I think. Casemiro wasn’t exactly noted for his attacking contributions either, but he’s been doing that piece quite well for us lately. Not saying it’s the same situation, only that a player who had predominantly defensive responsibilities might not be showing his full range.

De Ligts a weird one though, I agree. Was probably mostly signed because of EtH?

Casemiro has always had a worldie pass in his locker and generally just sees opportunities to get the ball forward really quickly and isn't afraid to do it. He's just always been a bit dodgy on the half turn and picking up the ball from the defenders (which is why Zidane played him ahead of Kroos positionally). He's always been brilliant if you can hide his weaknesses, which are just getting harder to hide. I just don't think Ugarte sees attacking options that quickly, which is a shame because he seems to have a weirdly accurate and confident long range pass (and is a bit better at being pressured, but almost always plays it negatively). We're just so absolutely desperate for a deep lying midfielder who can transition the ball from deep though, it's almost embarrassing we have to put Bruno back there.

I think they just saw De Ligt as decent value for what he is, same as Mazraoui. I'm sure the EtH connection helped. Which is meh, whatever, it's pretty low consequence on squad building terms. He's a good enough option to have in a back 3 even though his wages are a bit steep and Mazraoui has been a bonus.

 

[Dion]

I think you have to ask yourself why no clubs were prepared to take a punt on Cherki for £20m in January?

Because Dortmund wanted to sign him for £20m but it turned out John Textor realised he didn't actually need to honour the gentleman's agreement because he's not a gentleman.

 

[Raoul]

I've seen you post this a few times now. NO ONE is buying Luke Shaw

If Shaw is fit and made available, someone in the market for an experienced LB will probably buy him. Its a straightforward concept. Conte was rumored to be interested to take him to Napoli during the winter window, so that may be an option.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It depends what you consider comfortably above, he's 70th percentile across the top leaguesin a few things, but that includes a lot of backup players. As far as starting XI attacking midfielders/wingers go he's pretty middle of the pack apart from over-perfoming his xG.

For what we need him to do, he’s a top player. 96th percentile non penalty goals. 90th percentile for shots. Højlund doesn’t get enough nor take enough shots in our side.

Pointless debating how much we rate him. He’s a very good player but not world class is I think something we broadly agree on.

You're again just deliberately ignoring the point I'm making, Kluivert didn't "show his level" until he moved to Bournemouth, Cunha didn't "show his level" until he moved to Wolves, Gordon didn't "show his level" until he moved to Newcastle. They all had clear upward progression though where their underlying data was proportionally good for their age and are generally under-valued because their output isn't elite. They then get picked up by a team who play to their strengths with a bit more quality, they improve a bit with age and their output jumps and their value suddenly get's noticed. Cunha wasn't cheap, but he was younger and likely had his 2 best years of his career at Wolves, and is now costing a lot more. Gordon wasn't 'cheap' when Newcastle bought him, Kulusevski wasn't 'cheap' when Spurs bought him. They were both a lot cheaper than Cunha is now and those clubs would get an extra 2 of those players best years. It's not like we're incapable of spotting those types of players, by all accounts we were after Dan Ndoye last year (although I assume his price has gone up now, and I have doubts about him fitting into Amorim's system.

I promise I’m not deliberately ignoring, I’m trying to get you to articulate exactly what you’re looking for. Which I genuinely appreciate you doing. They didn’t all have clear upward trajectory. Cunha went from failing at Atletico to Wolves. Kluivert had an ok 17/18 season at Ajax, but flopped at Roma where he had many loans. Gordon already performed well at Everton in his debut season.

What you’re advocating is buying potential which id argue we’ve done. I’m not sure Dan Ndoye has that next level.

Like I said, I'm not playing this game because it will get into a back and forth where you will argue "this player is left footed", "this player isn't tall enough", "This player isn't that good" etc. in an endlessly subjective game of whack-a-mole. I personally don't think Guessand's got anywhere near the technique to play in the middle (although I suspect he'd make a surprisingly good wingback under Amorim), I freely admit I haven't seen enough of him to really determine if he's 100% the right fit though and that's why me putting names out there is meaningless. He's clearly talented enough, but whether he fits the exact profile Amorim wants I have no idea. I've got the same thoughts about Cherki, who is obviously talented enough to be a good player for a CL challenging team, I just don't know if he fits exactly that role. But if you do think Ndoye, Cherki or Guessand or Sudakov fit the profile you want then it make far more sense to go out and pay half the price before they get picked up by a CL club from Spain/Italy or one of the PL clubs and their value explodes. Realistically you gain so little by waiting, it's just not worth paying the 50-100% markup. Playing the numbers game I'm 99% sure there's at least a handful of players out there who do fit Amorim's system, though I'd not be able to tell you who they were without digging around in some very expensive data sets.

I said Guessand was a different example of a player I think fits your criteria of able to go up a level for a reasonable fee now. I did make it clear he wasn’t a Cunha type player.

The reason I’m throwing out names is to try and figure out where your subjective view and mine might align or where they differ so I can understand your view better. So now I know you appreciate some qualities of Guessand I think he’d be a player you’d be on board with.

I offered Sudakov as an example of a player I in a similar role to Cunha but who would probably cost ~£50m maybe less. I suppose where we differ is on how we view the risk vs the £12m saved.

I do appreciate your honesty in not just throwing a name out that you haven’t a strong case or opinion on.

Firstly, I think (as I've outlined above) "several years of performing at other clubs" means very different things to you than what it does in the way I'm suggesting. It doesn't mean 2 years of being an important player in the French League and then 2 more years at a Premier League club. It means a couple of years at a club where the performances probably don't look outwardly exceptional but have been clearly improving and there's clearly a lot of underlying positive qualities which are obvious at anything more than a surface glance. Struggles being either system or age related.

This is really helpful in understanding the profile you mean so thank you. I understand now. So for instance a player going from 3-5 goals to 8-10 goals a season a small but tangible improvement. Or an improvement in carries into the box etc?

Well let’s just look historically, right at the top end of that you've got Cunha at Wolves £43m~, Gordon £40m~, Kulusevski £38m~. Then there's a whole range of prices down from that, which I think it's probably unreasonable to expect United to pick up given the United tax is certainly still a thing, but they do exist. I'm much, much more comfortable with United going for that age and range of player than I am with them spending elite player money on someone who is clearly a level below an elite player just because he's a "good fit" and "Premier League proven". This is especially pertinent because I think Cunha is much more suited to Wolves' style than ours and Premier League proven just means his level isn't going to go up.

I think now’s a good time to bring up “United tax”. Historically clubs have inflated fees when we’re involved, especially under Woodward, and so I do wonder if these players move to United for the same fee st the same time? I mean look at the fee for Gordon vs what Everton reportedly wanted for Branthwaite. So as you agree there’s an element of unrealistic expectation for us to get the same deal.

Out of interest what level of fee would you say current Cunha is worth?

 

[Vidooq]

That didn't happen. He did the gesture to his own fans and it was to indicate he has the cojones to stand up and be counted, as explained by French posters on here.

Did not knew that. Thanks.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

You’ve just described Cunha though!

Perhaps I did, but I'm talking in general, our issues in terms of squad quality is a lot more fundamental than things PL proven or overperforming xG and so on, especially in attack, aside from Bruno who I now see more as a CM and Amad, our attacking unit is lacking severely, and we need players who have the right profile, and to me, Cunha has the right profile, and I think Delap too has the basic fundamentals for striker in Amorim's system

 

[Posh Red]

He has X factor and cutting edge. Something drastically lacking from United’s attacking options.

 

[Stig]

I think you have to ask yourself why no clubs were prepared to take a punt on Cherki for £20m in January?

Why were no clubs prepared to take a punt on Cherki for £20m in January? Is it because he is not very good? I have no idea who he is ?

 

[Martial]

Like I said, I'm not playing this game because it will get into a back and forth where you will argue "this player is left footed", "this player isn't tall enough", "This player isn't that good" etc. in an endlessly subjective game of whack-a-mole.

True. It's a lot easier to be Captain Hindsight and point to the likes of Anthony Gordon after years of obvious success at Newcastle, without ever so much as even mentioning his name before the move.

 

[B20]

I am not saying he'll be that level, but Cunha's performance level remind me a lot of Mane before we signed him.

Obvious top level talent to some. Others who don't see it because he's playing for wolves and isn't in the conversation for topscorer.

Think if he signs for a proper top club he'll be grand from day one. You'll find a way to take the magic out of him if he signs for you though, I'm sure.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Cunha and Amad with Bruno playing the ball into them sounds spicy. We definitely need a better striker though. Last few games our build up as improved so much but we have no good risk takers to actually add that little bit at the end to get the ball into the net.

Look at our goalscorers against Lyon, none of them were expected except the pen. Ugarte arriving late, Dalot with a run in behind, Mainoo worldies and Maguire header from nowhere. If we could just get better sticking players in those positions we would be sorted I think.

 

[Remember the geese]

Cunha and Amad with Bruno playing the ball into them sounds spicy.

Think it will be Cunha and Bruno with Amad at wing-back.

 

[jadajos]

@Dion heres a list of current players around that age bracket yet to have a big move to a bigger club. Which of these meet that criteria?

Baena
David
Kubo
Stiller
Kokcu
Amoura
Sudakov
Q.Timber
A.Varela
Pino
Ekitike
Millot
Guessand
Saibari
Akliouche
Baturina
Bakayoko
Hartman
De Cuyper
Jashari
Bakwa
Tzolis
Delap
Steijn
Flamingo
Biereth
E.Quaresma
Emegha
Brazhko
A.Diouf
Nardoni
Yeremay (Deportivo)

Don’t need much but a bolding of any that would fit the criteria will help me massively understand the sort of player you’re thinking of?

I agree with the points you are making in this argument, although I would say De Ketelaere at Atalanta fit the criteria. He’s not on your list because he’s 24, I guess but he was 23 just a month ago so he’s kind of the same profile. Think he might move this summer, too.

 

[FrankWhite]

Cunha does far more with less than Garnacho. He also won't drift to the wings taking up space that should be made available to our WBs. This guy below has some analysis on this.
Cunha's output is more likely to explode rather than regress if he gets anywhere near the touches our current AMs do.

Also, if we can add, him and a creator like Cherki, it'll really bring back the excitement and creativity to OT. No brainer for me.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Doue is essentially a Wirtz clone. I’d class Wirtz as a 10 but the modern 10 who has positional flexibility.

Doue interestingly has spent 40% of his time as a CM this season (Opta) but floats wide to find space as well as occupying central spaces.

He really is a Wirtz clone.

I think he’s more explosive than Wirtz which means he tends to beat you on the outside more than the inside. But Wirtz has the edge in tight spaces and with his playmaking. I just see Doue being a pretty explosive winger in his prime.

 

[jesperjaap]

Wasn't he pretty poor for wolves when they first got him and played him as a striker?

Pretty average yes but I think that was more settling into the new environment rather than a positional issue

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Make a summary in five bullets of this text:

Here’s a five-bullet summary of the text:

• Player Comparison: Matheus Cunha, Bryan Mbeumo, and Justin Kluivert have similar attacking profiles and all performed well in the 2024/25 season; Cunha and Mbeumo are slightly ahead in creativity and goal output.
• Critique of Manchester United: The author argues United should have signed Cunha over Mason Mount, who was chosen more for pressing than creativity, despite poor stats prior to his transfer.
• Statistical Breakdown: Mbeumo leads in goal involvement (18G/8A), Cunha shows consistent growth (14G/4A), and Kluivert has improved with increased responsibility (12G/6A).
• Ideal Lineup Suggestion: A system with Bruno Fernandes deeper, and Cunha and Mbeumo behind a striker, is proposed; Mbeumo may adapt better due to past experience yielding set-pieces.
• Recruitment Concerns: The piece criticizes United’s current talent acquisition strategy, noting a drop from past standards and emphasizing the need to attract top-tier talent like Wirtz to compete at the highest level.

I agree with the points you are making in this argument, although I would say De Ketelaere at Atalanta fit the criteria. He’s not on your list because he’s 24, I guess but he was 23 just a month ago so he’s kind of the same profile. Think he might move this summer, too.

Yeah only didn’t include him due to the filter I’d put on. But I think these are the sorts of players @Dion means?

Obviously not all are positional fits but I think they are the age bracket and experience level he was on about.

There are some excellent players in that age bracket and category so if you could guarantee a couple of them for ~£30m - £40m I can see the appeal of that policy. I think when you start looking north of £50m there needs to be a clear and obvious quality upgrade (Which I believe Cunha is).

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I think he’s more explosive than Wirtz which means he tends to beat you on the outside more than the inside. But Wirtz has the edge in tight spaces and with his playmaking. I just see Doue being a pretty explosive winger in his prime.

I think Doue would be wasted as a pure winger hence his involvement in CM and central areas as well as wide ones for PSG.

The main difference is Wirtz operates slightly higher on average per 90. Doue tends to come from deeper areas. Doue slightly more dribbles into the box, Wirtz slightly more passes, but I don’t think you’d find another player more similar to Doue than Wirtz right now.

 

[Zed 101]

We are missing end product from all our forward players apart from Amad and Bruno, so bringing any player in that dramatically improves chance creation, decisiveness and decision making in the final third is a big plus, will Cunha do that, yes, but I have serious concerns that Amorim needs to have signed off on the attitude of the player, he is hard working so that will not be an issue, but Amorim's standards have already seen us shipping off Rashford.... not that I am opposed to that but last thing we need is to do that with a player who will be sucking up a big part of whatever budget we have.

One thing I wonder, everyone is assuming we will trigger the £62.5m release clause, I am not sure, I suspect INEOS are tapping the player up and will try offering Wolves less in the first instance, would not be surprised to see them offer £40m once Cunha has effectively agreed to join us it could be enough to discourage other suitors if his agents are nah only interested in Man Utd sorry, especially with the current alternatives being Forrest and NU.

 

[Dion]

For what we need him to do, he’s a top player. 96th percentile non penalty goals. 90th percentile for shots. Højlund doesn’t get enough nor take enough shots in our side.

Pointless debating how much we rate him. He’s a very good player but not world class is I think something we broadly agree on.

The point here is more that while he's 90th percentile for goals this season, he's actually usually around 60-70th percentile and his xG highlights that. If we were signing an attacking midfielder with a goal variance of 15+/-5 then £60m is fine, because that goal output is pretty elite. The problem is Cunha is not that player. He's a (generously) 10+/-5 type player. I promise I’m not deliberately ignoring, I’m trying to get you to articulate exactly what you’re looking for. Which I genuinely appreciate you doing. They didn’t all have clear upward trajectory. Cunha went from failing at Atletico to Wolves. Kluivert had an ok 17/18 season at Ajax, but flopped at Roma where he had many loans. Gordon already performed well at Everton in his debut season

I promise I’m not deliberately ignoring, I’m trying to get you to articulate exactly what you’re looking for. Which I genuinely appreciate you doing. They didn’t all have clear upward trajectory. Cunha went from failing at Atletico to Wolves. Kluivert had an ok 17/18 season at Ajax, but flopped at Roma where he had many loans. Gordon already performed well at Everton in his debut season.

What you’re advocating is buying potential which id argue we’ve done. I’m not sure Dan Ndoye has that next level.

This is what I mean about looking beyond headline figures to actual underlying data. Cunha "flopped" at Atletico because he was playing as a striker under Simeone when they also had Suarez, Correa, Felix and Griezmann. Atletico were short on cash after bombing out of the CL group early, the Portuguese language contingent was causing trouble for Simeone about their game time and you find a situation where suddenly selling him looks very attractive. For a club looking for someone to play as a 10 rather than as a genuine forward in a pair (where there's significantly less goal output expected of him), that's ripe pickings for a decent deal.

This is just a very basic illustration of the point, but does this look like a player who doesn't have a baseline level of quality? It's an absolutely typical display of maintaining a consistent baseline despite stepping up responsibility. He has a dip at Atletico because of circumstance, but he's not suddenly a bad player.

Likewise, Kluivert


That doesn't take a statistician to figure out what is going on there. There's a reason they ended up at clubs with decent data anlytics.

I think now’s a good time to bring up “United tax”. Historically clubs have inflated fees when we’re involved, especially under Woodward, and so I do wonder if these players move to United for the same fee st the same time? I mean look at the fee for Gordon vs what Everton reportedly wanted for Branthwaite. So as you agree there’s an element of unrealistic expectation for us to get the same deal.

Out of interest what level of fee would you say current Cunha is worth?

I don't think Newcastle/Spurs etc. escape that tax anymore. Branthwaite is a different proposition to Gordon, who they clearly think has a much, much higher ceiling. This is one of the dangers of buying players in their very early 20's, I suspect you'll either be able to get Branthwaite for £40m in a year or he'll cost £80m, but the saving for waiting is pretty minimal and you're not losing out on a couple of the players best years. I'm pretty confident if United wanted Gordon for £40m uncontested like Newcastle did we would have gotten him.

I'd say Cunha is worth what Wolves paid for him. I know that is controversial, because he's had 2 and a half good years there so surely his price should have gone up? Well actually I'd argue no, there's 3 aspects to it.
1) I don't think he's got potential to go any higher, what you see is what you get (and there's a reason Atletico bought him, they saw that, they just used him badly/had bad squad management).
2) Premier League "proven" is really, really over-rated. What he really is is Wolves proven, I have doubts he'll be able to translate his ability better here than he did there, which circles back to point 1. That's not to say he'll be bad at United, or even he'll be worse.
3) Cunha is 26 in a few weeks. Players in those dynamic attacking positions typically have their best years in a range around 23-28 and then have to adapt or fall off. So realistically we're only getting half of that time for £60m, rather than all of it for less. He's also entering a period of ever increasing risk for injury niggles which would be a real issue for us and him.

So what you're getting really is a player on higher wages, with less of his best years left, putting in similar performances with an increased risk he wont be available. In exchange for some kind of guarantee that he'll adapt reasonably well to the move and hit the ground running? It's Mason Mount all over again (and I don't include Mount's hilariously sad injury record in that assessment, which even by United standards is a bit unlucky).

 

[golden_blunder]

Time to see some action

Love this goal from when he was playing in Germany

 

[golden_blunder]

This player will get fans off their seats

 

[FromTheBench]

He is type of player we need if he can get his head right.

Someone who can create out of nothing.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Amorims comments today in the presser basically eluding to the fact we are going to get him.

 

[croadyman]

Amorims comments today in the presser basically eluding to the fact we are going to get him.

Yeah has really picked up pace since the pre Wolves presser last Thursday. I thought when he individually referenced him there was something in it

 

[dejans]

Yeah has really picked up pace since the pre Wolves presser last Thursday. I thought when he individually referenced him there was something in it

Yes, that type of mentions happens rarely.

 

[diarm]

Amorims comments today in the presser basically eluding to the fact we are going to get him.

His comments when asked about Cunha for anyone who didn't see it:

I could say this is a conversation for the end of the season but I have an idea that is clear because we need to do things early.

I will not say anything about Matheus because if I say one time I will have to comment on every situation. I am focused on this season and even in the next few games could change our plan for next season.