Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player

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moses said:
But she took him back, and that always ends well surely?
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I know you're being facetious but it's impossible to know - the chances of reoffending obviously increase without intervention. It's why I find it really difficult to get on board with the idea of punting him to Getafe or wherever will take him.

Say he leaves permanently and he reoffends having avoided scrutiny + having his behaviours and emotional responses challenged (we don't know if he'd have to undergo any form of psychological intervention if he came back, feels more likely than not if they had hopes of convincing the public of genuine contrition but who knows), will people be vindicated in wanting him to leave or will it be seen as a missed opportunity for accountability?
 
redcucumber said:
I know you're being facetious but it's impossible to know - the chances of reoffending obviously increase without intervention. It's why I find it really difficult to get on board with the idea of punting him to Getafe or wherever will take him.

Say he leaves permanently and he reoffends having avoided scrutiny + having his behaviours and emotional responses challenged (we don't know if he'd have to undergo any form of psychological intervention if he came back, feels more likely than not if they had hopes of convincing the public of genuine contrition but who knows), will people be vindicated in wanting him to leave or will it be seen as a missed opportunity for accountability?
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Yeah, it's deeply unpleasant.

I always feel that where there are allegations of violence against a person it must be cleared up by the process. I know sometimes that's not possible because of the victim, but I feel decades of neglect of the victims is one of the biggest factors there. Fear and shame are part of it too, which is why we have zero tolerance for anyone casting shade on the victim or her family.
 
Lash said:
This is all well and good until you understand how hard it is to prosecute, get to trial and secure a conviction in these cases. Read the news and see how long the court backlog is for cases like these, read the statistics.

Also for someone to rehabilitate they have to admit to what they've done, something Greenwood has not done.
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It’s true that it is difficult to prosecute in such cases. But that should not be the reason for us to make up our minds and not give anyone a second chance. But you are right for rehabilitation to happen there has to be closure which will not happen in this case for reasons discussed by others in length.
Wibble said:
Drama much?

The only question is should he be allowed back to play for United given his recorded despicable behaviour.

If the answer is (hopefully) no then no casting aside or tarring and feathering will occur. No rehabilitation will be in play and he will continue to play football and be paid extremely well.
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No drama. Just stating an opinion of what I perceive as the general tone of the thread. Even before the question is answered the tarring and feathering has already happened and only the casting away is left.
NotThatSoph said:
"One strike and you're out", "tarred and feathered", "cast away".

Getafe is a nice little city, ten minutes from Madrid. Why do you hate it so much, did something happen to you there?
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Don’t know anything about getafe. Never been there.
Pickle85 said:
Dogs have hair, eyes and teeth, does that mean we are all dogs?
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Well maybe we all are. The way an opinion is barked down in this world we may all as well be dogs. Or maybe we all are nothing.
 
redcucumber said:
Given we're talking about an abusive violent offender, that sounds like a rather bad outcome (for the victim, and/or potential future victims). Nifty for people that don't want their favourite football club to be associated with anti social behaviours, mind. Out of sight and out of mind.
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I've seen this said in one way or another a few times.

In an ideal world Mason Greenwood and anyone accused of domestic abuse would face a trial where findings would be offered a proportionate steps taken in law.

This hasn't happened here and does not happen in many cases. This is due to complex reasons that have been discussed in this thread many times.

Big companies will also often employ people that they believe to be terrible humans if it benefits them.

We can't control any of this but it is totally fair to say I don't wish to see someone who I believe has carried out reprehensible actions to play for a sports team I care about a great deal.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I've seen this said in one way or another a few times.

In an ideal world Mason Greenwood and anyone accused of domestic abuse would face a trial where findings would be offered a proportionate steps taken in law.

This hasn't happened here and does not happen in many cases. This is due to complex reasons that have been discussed in this thread many times.

Big companies will also often employ people that they believe to be terrible humans if it benefits them.

We can't control any of this but it is totally fair to say I don't wish to see someone who I believe has carried out reprehensible actions to play for a sports team I care about a great deal.
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Yeh, ideally in these situations due process happens. What is the next best thing that we would like to happen and what outcome is it we're trying to achieve? I would still say that it's minimising the likelihood of Greenwood reoffending, regardless of the fact that that won't happen with judicial overview.

And this isn't a typical case. Most people that aren't charged in these situations go back to their lives without any scrutiny. That is sort of what Greenwood has got going on in Spain (wasn't the head of La Liga fawning over him recently?). At United, there's far greater likelihood of him facing accountability. Whether it's for PR or otherwise, both the club and him will be under intense attention and will need to make a show of his behaviours being confronted. That is more likely to be a catalyst for positive change than him being in Spain, in my opinion. But maybe that ship has sailed.
 
redcucumber said:
Yeh, ideally in these situations due process happens. What is the next best thing that we would like to happen and what outcome is it we're trying to achieve? I would still say that it's minimising the likelihood of Greenwood reoffending, regardless of the fact that that won't happen with judicial overview.

And this isn't a typical case. Most people that aren't charged in these situations go back to their lives without any scrutiny. That is sort of what Greenwood has got going on in Spain (wasn't the head of La Liga fawning over him recently?). At United, there's far greater likelihood of him facing accountability. Whether it's for PR or otherwise, both the club and him will be under intense attention and will need to make a show of his behaviours being confronted. That is more likely to be a catalyst for positive change than him being in Spain, in my opinion. But maybe that ship has sailed.
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That seems entirely illogical to me based on my understanding of abusers from spending years working in the sector. If anything the added stress of the scrutiny would make him far more likely to revert to those behaviours.

Either way if the only way he can not be abusive is to play for Manchester United then I'd imagine she needs go get as far away from him as possible.
 
redcucumber said:
Yeh, ideally in these situations due process happens. What is the next best thing that we would like to happen and what outcome is it we're trying to achieve? I would still say that it's minimising the likelihood of Greenwood reoffending, regardless of the fact that that won't happen with judicial overview.

And this isn't a typical case. Most people that aren't charged in these situations go back to their lives without any scrutiny. That is sort of what Greenwood has got going on in Spain (wasn't the head of La Liga fawning over him recently?). At United, there's far greater likelihood of him facing accountability. Whether it's for PR or otherwise, both the club and him will be under intense attention and will need to make a show of his behaviours being confronted. That is more likely to be a catalyst for positive change than him being in Spain, in my opinion. But maybe that ship has sailed.
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Well this is a new spin. Bring him back because we can rehabilitate him. It’s not like he did the offence under our watchful eye in the first place.
 
bludsucker said:
By that yardstick all humans on this planet are of no legal interest to the law as you have yet to be passed judgement on by the courts. Does that mean we all are mason greenwoods.

More importantly even if someone has committed a crime/mistake does that mean they have no chance to be rehabilitated. One strike and you are out is it. Because the most vocal minority on this forum wants a teenager to be tarred and feathered and cast away for something the law could not prosecute him for. Is this the right stand to take. I believe that we all are and can be more than the worst that we have done.
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It does logically follow that because Mason Greenwood is of no legal interest that we are all Mason Greenwoods.

We are all free to have our opinions about Mother Teresa, Mason Greenwood and anyone else. I happen to be in the camp that believes that if the subject of his alleged behavior can forgive him, so can I. But the difficulty is well beyond personal redemption and goes to issues of character that the club does or should uphold, which have been discussed extensively here.

But no, we are not all Mason Greenwoods regardless of whether Mason Greenwood himself is of interest to the law. I’ve come across some leaps of logic here, but this one has to be in the top ten of all time.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
That seems entirely illogical to me based on my understanding of abusers from spending years working in the sector. If anything the added stress of the scrutiny would make him far more likely to revert to those behaviours.

Either way if the only way he can not be abusive is to play for Manchester United then I'd imagine she needs go get as far away from him as possible.
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Completely agree. I think stress would be a huge pull on their relationship
 
lex talionis said:
I happen to be in the camp that believes that if the subject of his alleged behavior can forgive him, so can I.
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You do know that forgiveness is not the only reason victims return to their abusers right? Or have you just ignored the multiple times that has been pointed out?
 
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
 
izak said:
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
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Absolutely nothing for me. What he did was so despicable that I don't want somebody like that representing the club I love.
 
izak said:
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
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If what we heard was accurate and he bloodied and bruised her as the pictures showed, then nothing, I'd rather he stayed gone.
 
moses said:
You do know that forgiveness is not the only reason victims return to their abusers right? Or have you just ignored the multiple times that has been pointed out?
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Yes of course we absolutely can assume the worst in people in every single instance. We're not going to resolve the true factual basis for the decision of one person to forgive another person in every single instance, but it is true that a person's "forgiveness" may be compelled by threat of violence on the one end of the spectrum to genuine forgiveness on the other end of the spectrum. Neither you nor I can know with certainty which it is as their lives and the decisions they make are theirs and theirs alone and not ours.

But we are free to judge of others the harshest judgment possible based on the information we do have, no question about that.
 
lex talionis said:
Yes of course we absolutely can assume the worst in people in every single instance. We're not going to resolve the true factual basis for the decision of one person to forgive another person in every single instance, but it is true that a person's "forgiveness" may be compelled by threat of violence on the one end of the spectrum to genuine forgiveness on the other end of the spectrum. Neither you nor I can know with certainty which it is as their lives and the decisions they make are theirs and theirs alone and not ours.

But we are free to judge of others the harshest judgment possible based on the information we do have, no question about that.
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With the data to hand, it's not that harsh.
 
lex talionis said:
Yes of course we absolutely can assume the worst in people in every single instance. We're not going to resolve the true factual basis for the decision of one person to forgive another person in every single instance, but it is true that a person's "forgiveness" may be compelled by threat of violence on the one end of the spectrum to genuine forgiveness on the other end of the spectrum. Neither you nor I can know with certainty which it is as their lives and the decisions they make are theirs and theirs alone and not ours.

But we are free to judge of others the harshest judgment possible based on the information we do have, no question about that.
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But how do you know that he's been 'forgiven'? She's back with him, sure, but that doesn't mean she's forgiven him or forgotten what happened. Living together and living happily together are two VERY different things.
 
The status of the relationship or her forgiveness has almost nothing to do with wanting him at United anyway.

Whether they are happy and abuse free, or whether it’s still very bad is of very little import to that question, of course to them and their families it’s massively important.

‘She’s forgiven him so I can too’ just sounds nice and easy and gives people a justification for having him back.

Usually until someone asks exactly what the forgiveness was for.

Ultimately, guessing at the actions and feelings of someone who likely has been a victim, but also a participant in an abusive relationship, with a famous and wealthy young person and has gone through complete public scandal and police involvement as some determinative factor in decision making is very poorly thought out.

It’s exactly why the stats regarding DV that have been presented 700 times exist and why victims don’t set punishments or jail terms. There is zero objectivity and huge amounts of emotion, pressure, influence, bias etc. it is an immensely complicated and subjective situation.

Sadly and frequently, It’s one of many painfully simplistic observations that start with the destination of ‘how can we have him back’ and then work backwards to find something that feels like you can stand over it.

I very, very much hope the relationship is abuse free and they are happy and moving on in family life, even if that is the case however it does not answer or absolve what has happened, them being able to move on successfully would be amazing, it doesn’t mean United fans have to tolerate him in a United shirt.

And that is not some sort of moral high horse, it’s actually how 98% of all of us deal with these things in other instances that don’t happen to involve our favourite world class talent.
 
Pickle85 said:
Nothing he can do as far as I'm concerned - let him continue his 'redemption arc' elsewhere.
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Can we even call it redemption if he claims he's done nothing wrong (other than vague "mistakes") and denies, deflects, breaks bail, etc? Some redemption...
 
izak said:
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
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According to the polls, the majority (55%) on here are already ready to have him back this summer but obviously many voted the other way too

So to make that the vast majority, I'm guessing that he and maybe his partner too will need to do some kind of interview to explain
 
redcucumber said:
Yeh, ideally in these situations due process happens. What is the next best thing that we would like to happen and what outcome is it we're trying to achieve? I would still say that it's minimising the likelihood of Greenwood reoffending, regardless of the fact that that won't happen with judicial overview.

And this isn't a typical case. Most people that aren't charged in these situations go back to their lives without any scrutiny. That is sort of what Greenwood has got going on in Spain (wasn't the head of La Liga fawning over him recently?). At United, there's far greater likelihood of him facing accountability. Whether it's for PR or otherwise, both the club and him will be under intense attention and will need to make a show of his behaviours being confronted. That is more likely to be a catalyst for positive change than him being in Spain, in my opinion. But maybe that ship has sailed.
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Great post.
 
Pickle85 said:
But how do you know that he's been 'forgiven'? She's back with him, sure, but that doesn't mean she's forgiven him or forgotten what happened. Living together and living happily together are two VERY different things.
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We do not know if she has truly forgiven him or whether he has her at the knife point to compel her to her to his will.
 
izak said:
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
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Same thing as last time this was asked.

Walk into a police station and plead guilty to everything that he did. Accept whatever punishment is dished out to him by the courts and when he's done his time he can try again, even at United.

Until that happens he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the club. Redemption starts with accountability.
 
Rood said:
According to the polls, the majority (55%) on here are already ready to have him back this summer but obviously many voted the other way too

So to make that the vast majority, I'm guessing that he and maybe his partner too will need to do some kind of interview to explain
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Thanks to the Mason Greenwood Public Relations Branch for that, but that wasn't the question.

The question was how would fans agree, and I think judging by this thread, disagreement runs deep, and getting the two sides to agree might take more than a PR video, all that would do would embolden those who peddle the 'she took him back' line.

A 5% majority is slim as feck and doesn't even represent the forum, lots of people who don't want him near the club have the thread on ignore because the idea of even a discussion about his return is so grim.

I'd almost like to see the amount of effort you'd put into getting him back if you weren't 'neutral'.
 
moses said:
Thanks to the Mason Greenwood Public Relations Branch for that, but that wasn't the question.

The question was how would fans agree, and I think judging by this thread, disagreement runs deep, and getting the two sides to agree might take more than a PR video, all that would do would embolden those who peddle the 'she took him back' line.

A 5% majority is slim as feck and doesn't even represent the forum, lots of people who don't want him near the club have the thread on ignore because the idea of even a discussion about his return is so grim.

I'd almost like to see the amount of effort you'd put into getting him back if you weren't 'neutral'.
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If he puts in a few more good performances to move me from 'on probation' to 'get him back' then I will do, be careful what you wish for !

And feel free to start a new poll if you think it doesn't represent the forum, until that happens I'll continue to mention the only data we have on opinions here
 
izak said:
What would Greenwood have to do for united fans, agree on taking him back?
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Probably nothing, since there will be some who never want him back under any circumstances. If he does return, one would imagine they would be in peculiar quandary of whether to continue supporting United.
 
Rood said:
If he puts in a few more good performances to move me from 'on probation' to 'get him back' then I will do, be careful what you wish for !

And feel free to start a new poll if you think it doesn't represent the forum, until that happens I'll continue to mention the only data we have on opinions here
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He wouldn't solve any of our existing problems imo. Sure, he would be another quality player for the next manager to select from, which may alleviate the FFP headache of needing to buy 2 more attackers, instead of just one. United's problems run far deeper in terms of an executive structure and manager who are in sync, so even if he does return (which is 50/50 at this point imo), he won't be some sort of missing link that will immediately take us to the next level. On the other hand, if we buy a proper striker, then having him on the roster will add more depth and options. Obviously, a lot of that would be informed by who our manager is next year.
 
Raoul said:
He wouldn't solve any of our existing problems imo. Sure, he would be another quality player for the next manager to select from, which may alleviate the FFP headache of needing to buy 2 more attackers, instead of just one. United's problems run far deeper in terms of an executive structure and manager who are in sync, so even if he does return (which is 50/50 at this point imo), he won't be some sort of missing link that will immediately take us to the next level. On the other hand, if we buy a proper striker, then having him on the roster will add more depth and options. Obviously, a lot of that would be informed by who our manager is next year.
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We are desperately short up front so he'd obviously improve our squad but need to see a bit more from him to think he's ready to be an automatic starter again - we need 2 new strikers and another winger (assuming we can offload a couple of Sancho/Antony/Pellistri/Amad) so he can cover both those positions.

We know Ten Hag was ready to take him back in the summer, whether he's our manager next season though remains to be seen.

Bit unclear at the moment where we are at with FFP, on the money side I guess INEOS will need to look at what offers come in for him Vs how much it would cost to get someone of similar quality. £50m minimum I'd say.
 
I think the short time INEOS have been at the club we’ve seen that they have a very professional approach, will take initiative, and are generally airtight with leaks so far. In that respect, I can see them taking a chance at reintegrating Greenwood back into the squad. I don’t believe we’ll see the drama that unfolded with the Crafton hit piece, which pointed out that sheer incompetence of Murtough and Arnold’s handling of the very sensitive situation. New football structure, new manager and the likelihood Greenwood returns to the club.
 
Rood said:
We are desperately short up front so he'd obviously improve our squad but need to see a bit more from him to think he's ready to be an automatic starter again - we need 2 new strikers and another winger (assuming we can offload a couple of Sancho/Antony/Pellistri/Amad) so he can cover both those positions.

We know Ten Hag was ready to take him back in the summer, whether he's our manager next season though remains to be seen.

Bit unclear at the moment where we are at with FFP, on the money side I guess INEOS will need to look at what offers come in for him Vs how much it would cost to get someone of similar quality. £50m minimum I'd say.
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Agreed on Sancho and the rest. Selling a couple of them would bring in a lot of money. That’s assuming any club could take on his wages
 
Giggsy13 said:
I think the short time INEOS have been at the club we’ve seen that they have a very professional approach, will take initiative, and are generally airtight with leaks so far. In that respect, I can see them taking a chance at reintegrating Greenwood back into the squad. I don’t believe we’ll see the drama that unfolded with the Crafton hit piece, which pointed out that sheer incompetence of Murtough and Arnold’s handling of the very sensitive situation. New football structure, new manager and the likelihood Greenwood returns to the club.
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It's because of this that i feel certain they will move him on without much fuss.

Also, credit to Crafton for calling out the club's insulting and dreadful handling of the situation. If you think "hit pieces" like that, and other pressures, drama and noise would somehow be quieter if the club decides to bring him back this time round, i think you'll be in for a rude awakening. The press will rightfully be all over the decision and it will be very uncomfortable for Greenwood and the club for a long time.
 
macheda14 said:
Well this is a new spin. Bring him back because we can rehabilitate him. It’s not like he did the offence under our watchful eye in the first place.
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I do think the club and fans seem to have lost sight of the fact that he was here since he was 6 and we educated and shaped him into the man he is. The club's biggest responsibility with regards to this situation is to accept responsibility and change the way the academy is run to try to keep our next Mason Greenwood from being as entitled and misogynist and abusive.
 
Rood said:
According to the polls, the majority (55%) on here are already ready to have him back this summer but obviously many voted the other way too

So to make that the vast majority, I'm guessing that he and maybe his partner too will need to do some kind of interview to explain
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Says more about the characters on this forum. Any rational person would want this guy in jail after what he did.
 
NoPace said:
I do think the club and fans seem to have lost sight of the fact that he was here since he was 6 and we educated and shaped him into the man he is. The club's biggest responsibility with regards to this situation is to accept responsibility and change the way the academy is run to try to keep our next Mason Greenwood from being as entitled and misogynist and abusive.
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I said that sarcastically. I.e people saying we should be the ones to rehabilitate him when we arguably failed him. We move forward learn from our mistakes, but he shouldn’t be part of that.
 
macheda14 said:
I said that sarcastically. I.e people saying we should be the ones to rehabilitate him when we arguably failed him. We move forward learn from our mistakes, but he shouldn’t be part of that.
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I wasn't criticizing you (don't remember if I agreed or not to be honest), just meant that to the extent this thread matters (is being monitored by some intern) I hope the club gets pro-active about creating a better culture for the the academy players. I'm Canadian and our entire hockey leadership/culture seems to have failed spectacularly in this area and only now is it being addressed, for instance.
 
macheda14 said:
I said that sarcastically. I.e people saying we should be the ones to rehabilitate him when we arguably failed him. We move forward learn from our mistakes, but he shouldn’t be part of that.
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Greenwood's rehabilitation is not on the supporters and his behaviour is not on the club.

He has himself to blame for his actions and nobody besides.
 
macheda14 said:
Well this is a new spin. Bring him back because we can rehabilitate him. It’s not like he did the offence under our watchful eye in the first place.
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Exactly, he committed these offences having grown up within the club's system. So it would be wrong, in my opinion, for the club to absolve itself of any responsibility and instead expect the likes of Getafe to actively address the situation. Hoping the issue resolves itself (him reoffending) carries a very obvious risk of just perpetuating the problem.
 
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brontelicious said:
Greenwood's rehabilitation is not on the supporters and his behaviour is not on the club.

He has himself to blame for his actions and nobody besides.
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Does adopting a hands off approach benefit potential future victims?
 
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