This is a bit of a strawman argument for me, as unless you can literally quote someone being giddy about Ronaldo returning and know that they knew the details of allegations, who are you even talking about?
So when Ronaldo pays a woman $300,000 hush dollars when she accuses him of rape because there isn't a video we are supposed to believe Ronaldo ? this is what you'r asking right ?
It’s a painfully poor attempt at trying to undermine people who do take the ‘moral’ stance. Saying we have to respond the same way now as then means we never learn from any experience, grow or change our opinions. We should still have slavery and racism is a-ok. As arguments go it’s weak as piss.
It isn’t even inherently hypocritical, the Ronaldo experience and revelations about Giggs could have been instructive ones, causing people to deal with these kinds of issues and feelings for the first time re United. Feeling excitement about a legend returning but then a lot of conflict given his character.
Certainly, for me it was a watershed moment, I became increasingly uncomfortable supporting him or the team throughout his return and was extremely happy to see him leave. That makes me feel even more sure about not wanting to see Greenwood play here again. My response to something years before doesn’t hold me in some vice grip moving forward. It’s obviously miles better to take a previous experience and reflect on it and how it made you feel and use that moving forward than just say “well I didn’t say anything then so I can’t now” like an absolute mug.
It’s not a gotcha, it’s just a lame attempt at trying to make those who disagree with you look less shiny white or to tear them down, all in aid of you feeling better about a guy who said those things playing here again.
Again, who are you talking about? You are talking into genericisms. If you're challenging hypocrisy, you have to actually point it out. I'm not really sure what your point is otherwise on this particular topic.Nobody who was happy with Ronaldo returning knew the details of the allegations? Nobody in the Old Trafford crowd knew as a protest plane flew over on hia return?
We don't have to pretend that its one or the other. There undoubtedly would have been people comfortable with him rejoining and knowing about the allegations. I personally didn't know a fan who wasn't aware of them.
I don't think it does either, but that's a rabbit hole.Even in that exact instance it barely matters.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.Good faith in regards to you as our last exchanges have been respectful. I don't think myself and that poster have had respectful exchanges
And yes in his statement he says "he didn't do what he was accused of".
The Ronaldo point is interesting in regards to hypocrisy. In that on one hand you have a player in greenwood who denies what he was accused of and has seemingly moved on with his partner/alleged victim, on the other hand you have a player in Ronaldo who denies what he was accused of and the alleged victim disagrees. Yet Old trafford opened there arms to Ronaldo. The poster rightly highlighted Ronaldo disputes the document (which is a sense Ironic as I'd imagine according to some posters on here that would be defending an alleged rapist) and allegations, as Greenwood disputes his allegations.
For me, I think if the Old Trafford crowd welcomed Ronaldo back then they should Greenwood. Alternatively if they want to banish him then do the same with anything relating to Ronaldo. Ditto for Redcafe. Obviously that's not going to happen.
Now of course I know recency bias, the viscerity of the evidence etc but for me its an interesting watch regarding people's moral stances when confronted with the mirror in Ronaldo.
Totally agree. Best we can hope is that he continues to play well this season and we get a decent price for him. Huge FFP boost too.Whatever your opinion is on all this doesn't really matter because I genuinely don't see the new regime coming in, doing and saying all the right things at the moment, and then turning around in the summer and accepting MG back with open arms. That'd be shockingly bad PR and would ruin any good work they'd done up until then, and they know this, which is why they will sell him.
He would still be playing here if the video and audio had never come out. That was the massive thing for everyone, and what makes it so hard to believe any alternative explanation. I'm not sure I'd even believe if him and her came out and said "actually we made it all up".No. I didn't say that. I'm not asking you to believe anyone.
People asked why this is playing out like this. It's the video.
He would still be playing here if the video and audio had never come out. That was the massive thing for everyone, and what makes it so hard to believe any alternative explanation. I'm not sure I'd even believe if him and her came out and said "actually we made it all up".
Yep spot onTotally agree. Best we can hope is that he continues to play well this season and we get a decent price for him. Huge FFP boost too.
Precisely. It’s incredible that some people don’t see this. But I don’t actually believe they don’t see it, to be honest. It’s some sort of cognitive dissonance at play.He would still be playing here if the video and audio had never come out. That was the massive thing for everyone, and what makes it so hard to believe any alternative explanation. I'm not sure I'd even believe if him and her came out and said "actually we made it all up".
Lack of a video in the Ronaldo case, or another reason ?
People asked why this is playing out like this. It's the video.
Do you believe the photos and audio were altered or faked?What video is this that keeps being mentioned?
I genuinely had no idea of a video and it might explain the refusal of some posters to acknowledge the CPS stating ‘new evidence’ (separate to witness withdrawal) and the case being dropped completely.
If there is a video as with Zouma could someone PM me a link if that’s ok to do because that is huge IMO and is a lot more difficult to explain away or alter or fake, unlike photos or a partial audio snippet.
@Rood sorry if I missed your response to this but would be interested in it.Of course it's not black and because we don't know the full story, but I don't take refuge in the grey areas or hypotheticals to push my opinion. Our opinions are formed on the data to hand.
Straight question, do you believe, with what we know, that he is repsonsible for those bruises on his partner?
Also, could you clarify your strong opinion?
You literally have a local fan a few posts back this morning saying that practically everyone he knows does not want him back
What video is this that keeps being mentioned?
I’ll back the club with whatever decision they make as ultimately they have far more information on the situation then we do. I’m just trying to take emotion out of the decision and simply looking at it from a football point of view and that is that we are in dire need of a player or his profile as we have zero quality on the right and zero depth up top. And we are broke! Prior to this incident happening MG was arguably the most valuable player at Utd with the potential to be a Balon d’or candidate, there’s no doubt in that. Why would we just wash our hands of that if we have serious aspirations of getting back to the top of the game again. Other clubs won’t think twice about bringing him in I’d happily wager that.I am not downplaying anything. He was good but it was more about potential than what he actually did on the pitch for us. He could finish but had a lot to work on in the other areas of his game and showed little inclination to develop in his time in the side. The 18 month lay off has done him no favors and he hasn’t set the world alight at Getafe. He is good enough for United but he is not the generational talent some believe him to be, add in the baggage and it is a no brainer to sell him in the summer. Happy to take any wager you want on that being the outcome.
It’s been established via polls that the majority of Utd fans want him back - and these polls are often on sites / media that are unashamedly ‘anti Greenwood’.
Neither are you though.Right, but that guy is clearly not an indicator for every, or most home going Utd fans.
Every season ticket holder I know (about 45, I have huge family in Manchester and surrounding) wants him back, this includes people of different backgrounds / social classes and some are women. They all want him back, bar none.
It’s been established via polls that the majority of Utd fans want him back - and these polls are often on sites / media that are unashamedly ‘anti Greenwood’.
When you factor in other social media it’s blatantly clear that the overwhelming majority of fans want him back. Doesn’t make it right, and often in life the minority opinion is correct, but it’s undeniable.
Also most home going fans aren’t on Redcafe, and even if they were it’s highly questionable that they’d bother endlessly repeat posting their views in this thread when all they’ll get for it is snide comments calling them rape / DV apologists and if they argue back enough they’ll be booted.
It’s completely hypothetical as there’s no way Ratcliffe and co want to handle the heat of bringing him back, but I maintain that if he was brought back it would go exactly the same way as Zouma and Alonso.
i know approx 10 season ticket holders, 20 staff at Utd, 20 current colleagues that work in the Old Trafford area and about another 30 friends/family that live in South Manchester that are lifelong United fans and nobody I've spoken to over the last 18months regarding Greenwood want him anywhere near the club, this is a fairly broad demographic of people not just old farts like me.
It's so interesting to read these two anecdotes side by side.Every season ticket holder I know (about 45, I have huge family in Manchester and surrounding) wants him back, this includes people of different backgrounds / social classes and some are women. They all want him back, bar none.
It's good to know I'm mixing in the right circlesIt's so interesting to read these two anecdotes side by side.
But you understand that this is an issue that people feel very strongly about which transcends football?
It's good to know I'm mixing in the right circles
Of course it's not black and because we don't know the full story, but I don't take refuge in the grey areas or hypotheticals to push my opinion. Our opinions are formed on the data to hand.
Straight question, do you believe, with what we know, that he is repsonsible for those bruises on his partner?
Also, could you clarify your strong opinion?
There is no chance he’ll have 35,000 people booing him. More like a couple hundred.Yes but that doesn't mean they are going to sit at Old Trafford and boo their own player.
Some might but it will be a small minority.
You originally suggested 50%, I'd be surprised if it was even 5%.
If there is any regular matchgoer here who disagrees with this let me know.
As I said to you before, just like last summer it will be the public reaction away from Old Trafford that is more important. The club would have to manage and gage fan sentiment long before he stepped on the pitch.
Whereas to me it would appear that you put more value in the club's investigation because it suits you. How you can dismiss the audio and pictures (which have no alternative explanation as of yet) as 'limited information' is ridiculous and clearly shows that your self-claimed neutral stance is shaky at best. Do you just accept that the club are completely unbiased in this matter, or do you think that maybe there's a conflict of interest here?Missed this yesterday
My view is that no one here knows what happened and making judgements based on limited information is massively flawed. I put more value in the results of the club internal investigation because they have access to more evidence than the public and the support of the alleged victims family.
See this is where we diverge. I don’t think you’re getting how people feel about these issues. You wouldn’t say that if you did. Again, it’s expecting people to sit there and be quiet.Yes but that doesn't mean they are going to sit at Old Trafford and boo their own player.
Some might but it will be a small minority.
You originally suggested 50%, I'd be surprised if it was even 5%.
If there is any regular matchgoer here who disagrees with this let me know.
As I said to you before, just like last summer it will be the public reaction away from Old Trafford that is more important. The club would have to manage and gage fan sentiment long before he stepped on the pitch.
See this is where we diverge. I don’t think you’re getting how people feel about these issues. You wouldn’t say that if you did. Again, it’s expecting people to sit there and be quiet.
It goes beyond football. They don’t want greenwood representing their team. Whether it’s home or away they are going to let it be known
Missed this yesterday
My view is that no one here knows what happened and making judgements based on limited information is massively flawed. I put more value in the results of the club internal investigation because they have access to more evidence than the public and the support of the alleged victims family.
Percentage is irrelevant, address the point I raised.What % do you think are going to boo?
You previously suggested 50%
Whereas to me it would appear that you put more value in the club's investigation because it suits you. How you can dismiss the audio and pictures (which have no alternative explanation as of yet) as 'limited information' is ridiculous and clearly shows that your self-claimed neutral stance is shaky at best. Do you just accept that the club are completely unbiased in this matter, or do you think that maybe there's a conflict of interest here?
A big reason why this thread keeps going around in circles is because people like you refuse to address the difficult points. And then when someone way more articulate and knowledgeable than some idiot like me properly challenges yous, you just ignore it and move on.
I haven't seen any 'batshit' theories in this thread. What I have seen is people noting that the club are hardly in a position to conduct an independent, impartial investigation given the stake that they have in it. In terms of the additional bits of 'evidence' you say Rood is taking into account, would that include the club statement that did no more than say the club is satisfied that greenwood isn't guilty of the crimes with which he was charged, without giving details? It's funny when people like you talk about folks ignoring evidence like this, when both you and Rood seem to do everything you can to disregard the most tangible evidence out there...the pictures and audio. And no, Rood hasn't said whether he thinks greenwood is innocent or guilty. He's practically bent over backwards to avoid having an opinion on that. It's a stance that he's trying to frame as objective and impartial but is one that I think is much more sinister and, ultimately, distasteful.Nobody should be dismissing either piece of information. It feels like alot of people want to come up with batshit theories about a corrupt fabricated investigation because it suits them. I don't think Rood is dismissing the audio or pictures - he's looking at all the evidence including the internal investigation and public and private interviews of family members too. And I don't believe he's openly said he thinks he's innocent or guilty? Has he?
Those who are listening to the evidence which suits them are either making conspiracy theories up about what the girl has alleged or making conspiracy theories up about man utd statement. Rood is doing neither. He's being much more thorough and honest.
I'd recommend you watch "Liar:The Grooming Scandal", then tell me after watching that, that if you think it's sensible to make rash judgements and stances based on just evidence released by one party on social media.
I read someone comparing deciding if he's guilty or innocent to selecting a chocolate bar in a shop (in this thread) and an every day decision humans are accustomed to . That attitude is the very issue - this isn't choosing a chocolate bar - this is choosing if someone is guilty of very serious crimes. Anybody deciding the allegeds fate through selective evidence and conspiracy theories which suits their opinion is gambling and not being honest with themselves. Nobody can know the truth and anyone suggesting or implying they do is doing themselves a disservice and being rather reckless in my opinion.
Nobody should be dismissing either piece of information. It feels like alot of people want to come up with batshit theories about a corrupt fabricated investigation because it suits them. I don't think Rood is dismissing the audio or pictures - he's looking at all the evidence including the internal investigation and public and private interviews of family members too. And I don't believe he's openly said he thinks he's innocent or guilty? Has he?
Those who are listening to the evidence which suits them are either making conspiracy theories up about what the girl has alleged or making conspiracy theories up about man utd statement. Rood is doing neither. He's being much more thorough and honest.
I'd recommend you watch "Liar:The Grooming Scandal", then tell me after watching that, that if you think it's sensible to make rash judgements and stances based on just evidence released by one party on social media.
I read someone comparing deciding if he's guilty or innocent to selecting a chocolate bar in a shop (in this thread) and an every day decision humans are accustomed to . That attitude is the very issue - this isn't choosing a chocolate bar - this is choosing if someone is guilty of very serious crimes. Anybody deciding the allegeds fate through selective evidence and conspiracy theories which suits their opinion is gambling and not being honest with themselves. Nobody can know the truth and anyone suggesting or implying they do is doing themselves a disservice and being rather reckless in my opinion.
he's nowhere near £100 millionSure but it’s not a perfect world and it seems like biting off your nose to spite your face when you are then selling a potentially world class player for so far under value. If we could sell him for his true potential value £100 million and replace him then fair enough, but as it is, £40 million will get us someone so much worse.
I asked the same poster to point out the alleged ‘hypocrisy’ and nothing was forthcoming.Can you point out one batshit theory?
And Rood is dismissing the leaked evidence, he says, it's not enough to form an opinion, and he defers to the clubs investigation. Which is a valid position to hold.
People are not deciding he is guilty. The have decided that with the data to hand, the very damning leaked evidence and the subsequent lack of transparency, they don't want him playing at the club.
Nobody thinks they know the truth. They just make a decision based on the evidence. If you want to believe United, belt away.
But don't make up shit that people supposedly think and then argue against that. That is the definition of the concept of 'strawman' you were so upset with earlier.
I don’t blame you. It’s depressing.I need to clear my head a bit, gonna skip this thread for a while
I haven't seen any 'batshit' theories in this thread. What I have seen is people noting that the club are hardly in a position to conduct an independent, impartial investigation given the stake that they have in it. In terms of the additional bits of 'evidence' you say Rood is taking into account, would that include the club statement that did no more than say the club is satisfied that greenwood isn't guilty of the crimes with which he was charged, without giving details? It's funny when people like you talk about folks ignoring evidence like this, when both you and Rood seem to do everything you can to disregard the most tangible evidence out there...the pictures and audio. And no, Rood hasn't said whether he thinks greenwood is innocent or guilty. He's practically bent over backwards to avoid having an opinion on that. It's a stance that he's trying to frame as objective and impartial but is one that I think is much more sinister and, ultimately, distasteful.
Can you point out one batshit theory?
And Rood is dismissing the leaked evidence, he says, it's not enough to form an opinion, and he defers to the clubs investigation. Which is a valid position to hold.
People are not deciding he is guilty. The have decided that with the data to hand, the very damning leaked evidence and the subsequent lack of transparency, they don't want him playing at the club.
Nobody thinks they know the truth. They just make a decision based on the evidence. If you want to believe United, belt away.
But don't make up shit that people supposedly think and then argue against that. That is the definition of the concept of 'strawman' you were so upset with earlier.
