I have responded directly but if there are any particular points you think I haven't responded to then feel free to point them out.
It's infuriating. They also have the cheek to get all precious when someone points out the painfully obvious dishonesty of the argument. Yeah yeah, you always require absolutely all the facts and information before making your mind up on absolutely every single thing you write, say or do in your life (and of course, until you have 100% of the data you have to ignore any smaller fraction of it). Can this stupidly insulting argument end once and for all? It's a dialectical nightmare.
Exactly. So frustrating and gives the position this veneer of objectivity and respectability that it really doesn't warrant.
What if Greenwood chooses never to mount a defence, then? Say because, you know, his actions were indefensible. Will you forever defer your judgment?
A member of a jury who waits until the accused has had an opportunity to see the evidence presented against him and provide a defence before making up their mind. Yes, let's hope no one like that ever serves on a jury.
He won't ever mount a legal defence because he won't ever be given a trial.
Is it standard practice in your day-to-day life not to make judgements unless you're legally required to, then?
Because I don't think that many HAVE come to a different conclusion. I think that many avoid having to have an opinion (or at least to articulate one) by saying 'the club cleared him' or 'there's evidence we haven't seen' but very few have come out and said 'I don't think he's culpable, morally, for the things of which he was accused'. I would say that very few have said 'I don't think he's guilty of the things of which he was accused', but then folks would say 'he's not been found guilty in a court of law, and is innocent until proven guilty' as though that's some sort of 'gotcha' and not just a semantic dodge. As for deluding myself into thinking my stance is more moral than yours, I don't know what your stance is, to be frank. Do you think he's culpable (morally/factually) of the things of which he was accused, or do you think he's innocent?
A bit funny that you go on about an "anti Greenwood posters" inability to understand when you have taken a big and incorrect leap there buddy. I didn't say i don't understand why some people want him back. I said i don't understand why some people go to lengths to defend him.
I just struggle to understand why, when at best he's made 'mistakes' which are DV adjacent and at worst he's an unpunished domestic abuser and attempted rapist, people are keen to keep him around. Even in the 'best' case scenario there - that he's 'only' verbally abusing his partner and threatening her with rape (which would mean that she lied and elaborately framed him re the violence) - I would still rather he plied his trade elsewhere. Football just isn't THAT important.
We can all be judgemental but in my experience it’s actually far better to be less judgemental and try not to judge people until you have all the facts.
We all make judgements day to day, they're also known as decisions, and to make them we don't always have all available data to hand. It's not being judgemental, it's an evolutionary imperative. Otherwise we'd have been stuck in caves having conversations like
But we don’t live in prehistoric times anymore where our fight or flight response is tested regularly. No instead we live in a “civilised” world where those same pre-conceived judgements can cause great harm. It’s the fear of the unknown and things different form ourselves that leads to discrimination amongst other things. Checking our own internal and subconscious bias is important.
This is absolutely crazy. It will be funny (but extremely painful) if he goes to Barcelona because he will quickly be viewed as one of the worlds best players and it will be a portion of Man Utd fans who suffer the most.
There have been many examples of posters defending him throughout this thread. I got into a ridiculous discussion with one yesterday or the day before.
He’s far from one of the worlds best players though.
The terrible takes just keep coming don't they? I was going to reply to that one myself but I've got to point now where I just don't have the energy for it. These posters keep making out like they're not apologists, but they are.
No, we don't live in prehistoric times any more but we still live in times where, now moreso than ever given the amount of data that's available, getting all available data is nigh on impossible. Like it or not, sometimes we still have to make decisions based on what's available.
Fair enough and I appreciate the continued constructive tone. Tbh I don't think we'll ever agree on this and I still think you're being evasive with the 'depending on various factors', but as you say, there are a spectrum of opinions.
Yes and your posts are prime amongst them downplaying his ability!
It's unsurprising, we had people saying Hannibal should be starting for us as well. People are desperate for something else. The fact he still has a fair bit if talent, means people go into a bit of a frenzy over a half decent performance against a shitty side.
