No evidence is ever complete. However, if you listen to those audio tapes and see the police go through an extensive prosecution process only to drop out after Greenwood breaks the terms of his bail and impregnates the alleged victim, who subsequently withdraws from the case, causing it to collapse, and not see Greenwood as guilty beyond all reasonable doubt then there isn't really much to say. I just hope you never get picked for jury service.
Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player
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To me it's pretty clear he's on loan because of the media we saw online that led to him getting charged. You know, the rape, coervice control and actual body harm charges? For me that's the main factor. The public reaction combined with the club and media reaction were all a result of that behaviour.
To begin the narrative where you choose to, while technically true, paints a pretty selective picture.
It's infuriating. They also have the cheek to get all precious when someone points out the painfully obvious dishonesty of the argument. Yeah yeah, you always require absolutely all the facts and information before making your mind up on absolutely every single thing you write, say or do in your life (and of course, until you have 100% of the data you have to ignore any smaller fraction of it). Can this stupidly insulting argument end once and for all? It's a dialectical nightmare.
Exactly. So frustrating and gives the position this veneer of objectivity and respectability that it really doesn't warrant.
100%
A member of a jury who waits until the accused has had an opportunity to see the evidence presented against him and provide a defence before making up their mind. Yes, let's hope no one like that ever serves on a jury.
What if Greenwood chooses never to mount a defence, then? Say because, you know, his actions were indefensible. Will you forever defer your judgment?
A member of a jury who waits until the accused has had an opportunity to see the evidence presented against him and provide a defence before making up their mind. Yes, let's hope no one like that ever serves on a jury.
He won't ever mount a legal defence because he won't ever be given a trial.
I'm not a member of a jury so am not required to pass judgement. So, I won't. On this matter no one else is a member of a jury either because the charges were dropped. But, I'm sure you can find lots of people on here to act as judge and jury in your very own social media show trial without me.
Luckily there are no real life judge Dredds
Is it standard practice in your day-to-day life not to make judgements unless you're legally required to, then?
Its actually you who are disregarding the evidence available to us, lots of info has come out in the past 12 months that you are choosing to downplay/ignore (I won't bother repeating what it is as I'm sure you know).
I dont agree with your conclusion but you are entitled to your opinion - the problem here is that wont accept that others have considered all the evidence and come to a different conclusion. You then have the cheek to start labelling others as 'dishonest' 'dv apologists' and other total nonsense, dont delude yourself into thinking that your stance is more moral than mine either.
You seem to ignore the fact that the club were ready to bring him back after the internal investigation found him not guilty, that point is the only logical place to begin. It was only due to the negative public reaction to this news being leaked that made them uturn and send him on loan.
Because I don't think that many HAVE come to a different conclusion. I think that many avoid having to have an opinion (or at least to articulate one) by saying 'the club cleared him' or 'there's evidence we haven't seen' but very few have come out and said 'I don't think he's culpable, morally, for the things of which he was accused'. I would say that very few have said 'I don't think he's guilty of the things of which he was accused', but then folks would say 'he's not been found guilty in a court of law, and is innocent until proven guilty' as though that's some sort of 'gotcha' and not just a semantic dodge. As for deluding myself into thinking my stance is more moral than yours, I don't know what your stance is, to be frank. Do you think he's culpable (morally/factually) of the things of which he was accused, or do you think he's innocent?
Is it that you don't understand or is it that you refuse to understand? Many people including myself explained exactly why we stand where we do, what do you not understand about our views specifically? I'm more than happy to elaborate of anything I've said which you wish to challenge.
The whole not understanding people's opinions seems to be overwhelmingly linked to the most vocal anti greenwood posters in the thread.
The majority of those posting in support of a return don't seem to have the same issues in struggling to comprehend others opinions. From what I've read most of them recognise and understand opposing views while respectfully providing their own reasoning for why they differ.
If you still cant understand why people think differently after over a 100 posts where you could challenge and ask people to elaborate for you then i dont think youre ever going to understand. That's more of a testament to your own stubbornness and unwillingness to listen to or attempt to comprehend opposing views than anything else.
I'm not making ignoring it at all. It was part of a series of events beginning with the abhorrent media and ending with his exile.
You might be seen to be trying to ignore the fact he was already suspended by the club. He was already in bother over his alleged actions.
The 'poor Mason, victim of public opinion' schtik is tedious. Like public opinion is the real evil here. Public opinion ranges from the baying mob to actual democracy. Nobody was outraged he was suspended, but his return, without proper explanation was met with fully justified opposition.
A bit funny that you go on about an "anti Greenwood posters" inability to understand when you have taken a big and incorrect leap there buddy. I didn't say i don't understand why some people want him back. I said i don't understand why some people go to lengths to defend him.
I think the use of "defending him" by some posters, and this may or may not apply to you, is done so as to make it appear that some posters are supporting him (whether rightly or wrongly). Unless I'm mistaken, I have not seen anyone defending anything he may have potentially done and/or defending DV etc. There are people defending their stance on the matter which is not synonymous with defending Mason Greenwood. So it would be more accurate for you to ask "why are some people defending their personal stance?", which should in itself be clear. Not everyone will come to the same conclusion as yourself and they have a right to defend that position when under attack. However, saying people are defending Mason Greenwood is pretty dishonest.
First of all I wouldn't show anyone in real life my posts on this forum, this is my safe space to talk with other random caftards about shit. When I die, delete this account @mods
The stats are clear on the proportion of women who have experienced sexual assault, and it would be extremely unlikely that any of us don't know 1 person who has been a victim.
And yes the vocal clip was wrong, I have never shied away from that fact, and in a perfect world he'd go through the legal system
But he hasn't, and he remains on the books as a potentially valuable player (this has never been questioned prior to the incident). As a result I, as a supporter of the club, don't mind the club doing what is in it's best interests football wise and/or financial wise. If that is to play him and capitalize on his goal scoring ability, fine. If that is to sell him for £60m and recoup money for FFP, fine. If that is to loan him out to get him back to fitness and shape so he can be used or sold, fine. What never made sense from a football/financial perspective was cutting him, or putting out statements that tanked his value.
Oh, and I can't think of any negative impact of us playing him or selling him for a good price. I'm not aware of any damage being done to any human being on earth as a result of Greenwood playing football in Getafe. I'm not sure why that would change if he started playing for Manchester United.
I can abhor sexual assault, and support concrete/actionable steps to reduce it in society. And that is still compatible with me wanting my team to succeed on the pitch and doing whatever it takes within established rules to do so, even playing scumbags accused of it as long as they are under contract.
There have been plenty of posters in here defending him, denying it happened or making ludicrous statements about it being a consensual sex game.
I would imagine if you haven’t seen them that’s because the posts or posters have since been deleted or banned, as this is isn’t the first thread on the Greenwood situation.
Neither - but I guess you dont like that answer.
As I have said many times in this thread, there are too many unanswered questions for this to be a simple Yes/No scenario - no idea why you and others have such a problem with that viewpoint.
I certainly don't think he's totally blameless for the whole sorry situation, he himself has admitted to 'mistakes' but what exactly those mistakes are is the question.
While there are some with a simplistic view who probably havent really understood all the facts of this case or dont care, there are several who have gone into great detail to explain why they come to a different conclusion than you.
Which I am in agreement with in regards to anyone defending dv etc. As you have said those most likely have been already managed by the mods.
I just struggle to understand why, when at best he's made 'mistakes' which are DV adjacent and at worst he's an unpunished domestic abuser and attempted rapist, people are keen to keep him around. Even in the 'best' case scenario there - that he's 'only' verbally abusing his partner and threatening her with rape (which would mean that she lied and elaborately framed him re the violence) - I would still rather he plied his trade elsewhere. Football just isn't THAT important.
We can all be judgemental but in my experience it’s actually far better to be less judgemental and try not to judge people until you have all the facts.
We all make judgements day to day, they're also known as decisions, and to make them we don't always have all available data to hand. It's not being judgemental, it's an evolutionary imperative. Otherwise we'd have been stuck in caves having conversations like
'That enormous, gigantic-toothed thing in the distance that looks like it may not be friendly...should we run away, or do you reckon we're ok?'
'I agree it doesn't look friendly and, actually, is looking less and less friendly the closer it gets. That said, I haven't witnessed it savaging anyone so I think we should defer judgment'.
If he gets a move to Barcelona it’s fair. We want a transfer fee.
I don’t really rate his all round game and I actually think to build a more dominant style players like greenwood can hold you back coming from the academy.
The club feels it has to build a team around players like him to get the best out of his talents and been honest he’s not good enough to warrant that.
Pretty good finisher but nothing amazing given the amount of shots he’s having to goal ratio. It might change if he was closer to goal but then I don’t rate his holdup or build up play so he’s limited.
Maybe as an impact player off the bench but end of the day he’s like Memphis Depay to a degree. A sign of Barcelona’s demise as a top top competitive club. He’s a half baked player and will have a decent run scoring the odd wonder goal perhaps but nothing super consistent.
I believe he’ll be a bit like Martial in blowing hot and cold. I rated pre injury martial higher than Greenwood though due to his ball control and superior dribbling in right areas. Finishing Martial was about the same.
Greenwood perhaps gets his head up more but again playing in a poor La Liga at the moment gives you an extra second for that.
I don’t really rate his all round game and I actually think to build a more dominant style players like greenwood can hold you back coming from the academy.
The club feels it has to build a team around players like him to get the best out of his talents and been honest he’s not good enough to warrant that.
Pretty good finisher but nothing amazing given the amount of shots he’s having to goal ratio. It might change if he was closer to goal but then I don’t rate his holdup or build up play so he’s limited.
Maybe as an impact player off the bench but end of the day he’s like Memphis Depay to a degree. A sign of Barcelona’s demise as a top top competitive club. He’s a half baked player and will have a decent run scoring the odd wonder goal perhaps but nothing super consistent.
I believe he’ll be a bit like Martial in blowing hot and cold. I rated pre injury martial higher than Greenwood though due to his ball control and superior dribbling in right areas. Finishing Martial was about the same.
Greenwood perhaps gets his head up more but again playing in a poor La Liga at the moment gives you an extra second for that.
But we don’t live in prehistoric times anymore where our fight or flight response is tested regularly. No instead we live in a “civilised” world where those same pre-conceived judgements can cause great harm. It’s the fear of the unknown and things different form ourselves that leads to discrimination amongst other things. Checking our own internal and subconscious bias is important.
That’s part of the reason I’m really not a fan of people using wide brush DV statistics about conviction rates etc because while they are shocking, every case should be considered on its own merits. From the evidence we both saw in this case, we made a judgement that GW was a bastard that deserved punishment. I said at that time, with that sort of public evidence he will get a conviction for sure. The evidence that has subsequently come out from the CPS investigation and then the further club investigation have made me reconsider the body of evidence and reconsider my own initial judgement. That’s why I don’t really consider him guilty or innocent and I’d rather consider the opinion of those with more evidence.
This is absolutely crazy. It will be funny (but extremely painful) if he goes to Barcelona because he will quickly be viewed as one of the worlds best players and it will be a portion of Man Utd fans who suffer the most.
There have been many examples of posters defending him throughout this thread. I got into a ridiculous discussion with one yesterday or the day before.
He’s far from one of the worlds best players though.
Again he’s too one dimensional and there is a new crop coming up younger than him we will just buy instead.
He won’t be missed here given the headache he’d give us.
Hojlunds goals in the champions league for example this season especially the crazy half way sprint and dribble he did. I have never seen greenwood do anything like that.
Hojlund is a tier above technically and he’s more all round. Stronger and quicker physically also taller. He’s an upgrade over Greenwood as a talent long term.
And that's fine, I don't have an issue with that opinion but I do have an issue with labelling others dishonest, apologists etc for having a different opinion.
And there is a whole variety of reasons given in this thread for why some are ready to have him back - some of those reasons are poor but others match my own viewpoint.
I have said that I do not want him back now but I would be open to his return in the summer depending on various factors.
Yes. The fans are the ones who have suffered through this. The fans who don’t get to see a man on tape assaulting his partner playing for their team are the ones I most felt sorry for
Ignoring the terrible takes in this thread, there is a lot of delusion about how good he actually is.
Yeah, it's kind of weird. Maybe Antony would have a better rep if he hadn't fought the allegations
Its gotten to the point where I really don't care what happens now, hopefully it will be done with one way or the other at the end of the season.
Nobody really knows the truth of what happened, despite what people are saying on this group, you'll never know whether he was guilty or not.
Nobody really knows the truth of what happened, despite what people are saying on this group, you'll never know whether he was guilty or not.
The terrible takes just keep coming don't they? I was going to reply to that one myself but I've got to point now where I just don't have the energy for it. These posters keep making out like they're not apologists, but they are.
No, we don't live in prehistoric times any more but we still live in times where, now moreso than ever given the amount of data that's available, getting all available data is nigh on impossible. Like it or not, sometimes we still have to make decisions based on what's available.
Re the bolded, which specific bits of evidence changed your mind?
Fair enough and I appreciate the continued constructive tone. Tbh I don't think we'll ever agree on this and I still think you're being evasive with the 'depending on various factors', but as you say, there are a spectrum of opinions.
Yes and your posts are prime amongst them downplaying his ability!
It's unsurprising, we had people saying Hannibal should be starting for us as well. People are desperate for something else. The fact he still has a fair bit if talent, means people go into a bit of a frenzy over a half decent performance against a shitty side.
We don't need to agree - nothing wrong with different opinions
I have set out the factors before, the way I see it Greenwood is on probation for his 'mistakes' - he needs to prove himself for a whole season on and off the pitch to be deserving of a return to Old Trafford.
Assuming he does, there will still need to be some kind of interview/explanation to avoid the same public pushback as before.
A mistake is misspelling a word, what's happened is not just a 'mistake'
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