Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player

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Wing Attack Plan R said:
So: have the police ever said why they didn’t prosecute, or did the United investigators ever say what they found out, or did the girlfriend/wife ever say how what we all saw and heard was not what we all saw and heard?
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Some context: the CPS have a notoriously poor record for converting domestic abuse charges. It’s been in steady decline for a decade but over the last 2 years, it halved. Which by any metric is disturbing drop as crime doesn’t magically stop happening at that rate anywhere. Source - https://amp.theguardian.com/society...ales-halved-since-2015-while-offences-doubled

And in many cases, the victim drops charges and goes back to the abuser. This is an unfortunate reality and something deeply psychological and sociological. In most of these cases, women need the steady income to keep their kids under a roof. Now in Greenwood’s case, turns out his girlfriend became pregnant. Mason was charged in Oct 2022 and the charges dropped in Feb 2023 due to lack of evidence and the victim dropping out. Baby born in July 2023. The allegations however were brought up in Jan 2022.

This indicates that despite Mason being charged by the CPS, they engaged in relations and that eventually produced a baby. Was the abuse continuing? Or were they consensually engaging?

It’s very messy. Mason was horrible for what he did. Mason seems to have turned over a new leaf with the same person. Both can be true.

What comes next? I think we need to hear directly from his girlfriend regarding what happened. That will decide public opinion on this.
 
izak said:
We should be considering bring him back, If his girlfriend can forgive him, I mean the actual person who the crime was committed on, why won't you as a person forgive and move on!?
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Becuase there is so many people are claimed moral high ground and they think they are better and knew more than police, judge and his girlfriend herself.
Also, The brand of United is a attention grabber, you can receive a tons of like & sharing when you release your opinion about United (espcially against United) even you knew nothing or only read from news or somebody.
Let's see our new owner whether having a ball to let Mason back.
 
Tyrion said:
United never explained the information they claimed to have that wasn't public. I'm skeptical it exists.

As for the police, wasn't there someone who changed their testimony meaning there was a lack of evidence?
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The Red Thinker said:
Some context: the CPS have a notoriously poor record for converting domestic abuse charges. It’s been in steady decline for a decade but over the last 2 years, it halved. Which by any metric is disturbing drop as crime doesn’t magically stop happening at that rate anywhere. Source - https://amp.theguardian.com/society...ales-halved-since-2015-while-offences-doubled

And in many cases, the victim drops charges and goes back to the abuser. This is an unfortunate reality and something deeply psychological and sociological. In most of these cases, women need the steady income to keep their kids under a roof. Now in Greenwood’s case, turns out his girlfriend became pregnant. Mason was charged in Oct 2022 and the charges dropped in Feb 2023 due to lack of evidence and the victim dropping out. Baby born in July 2023. The allegations however were brought up in Jan 2022.

This indicates that despite Mason being charged by the CPS, they engaged in relations and that eventually produced a baby. Was the abuse continuing? Or were they consensually engaging?

It’s very messy. Mason was horrible for what he did. Mason seems to have turned over a new leaf with the same person. Both can be true.

What comes next? I think we need to hear directly from his girlfriend regarding what happened. That will decide public opinion on this.
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Thanks
 
Bondi77 said:
Changing the subject slightly but why is this guy so revered in the sporting arena after what he did??
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...kobe-bryant-nba-star-rape-claim-case/11912250
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Because a lot of people who bring this up knew next to nothing about Bryant while he was alive & quite frankly didn’t care to do the research until he died. They now read these articles & crusade for something they didn’t genuinely have an interest in. This information was in the public sphere for nearly 2 decades before his death. This was not buried & was often referred to as the ‘Denver incident’ when he was discussed so seeing this brought up upon his death seemed strange. Anyone who had even a fleeting interest in Bryant so much as to search his name & click on his Wikipedia could/would/should have read about the incident.

To clarify, cause I know how this place can be, what he was accused of reads terribly & if he did it, it’s disgraceful.

The reason he is still so revered is because his sporting greatness allowed him to overshadow it & he could always fall back on never having been found guilty. Rightly or wrongly it’s the world we live in, just as upon someone’s death drudging up the worst thing you can find about them was what many people who didn’t even know what sport he played did.
 
JagUTD said:
No idea. It only came out when the case was dropped that the witness, who wasn't named but almost certainly is her had retracted her statement some time earlier.
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No longer being willing to testify and retracting earlier witness statements are two different things. She did both, but I don't know if it was at the same time.
 
Longshanks said:
Mason Greenwood is assumed innocent as it stands, and there simply isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise. At the moment at the very least. Noone is ever proven innocent, innocence is always assumed until proven otherwise.

The we can't be sure nothing has been proven argument is the backbone of a fair trial. If you can't be sure prove it. It you can't prove it, move on.

The argument is that by the laws of the land he hasn't been found guilty of any crime, so why are alot of people acting like he has, and actively trying to stop him from re-starting his career?
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Very good post
 
goalscholes said:
This is such a bad and harmful argument. You can't take away the right of one man to be presumed innocent because of conviction rates of other cases out of context. Is your solution to automatically give a guilty verdict because other cases haven't ended in a prosecution?

If the audio evidence is the slam dunk some people are stating it is, the CPS could have pressed ahead knowing they'd be prosecuting a high profile target. It would be great PR. The reason they didn't was clearly because they knew the whole audio was not enough for a guilty conviction, despite what those who have less experience, intelligence and evidence say.



I disagree. Between 10-33% of victims do go back to their accusers, so whilst it is uncommon it does happen. I haven't seen any stats which show what proportion go on to suffer more DV in those relationships (although any number is obviously too many), nor whether those individuals were happy or safe having done so, so wouldn’t want to speculate whether that was the right or wrong decision for them.

I'd hazard a guess that factors which lead to greater return to DV abusers would be people who are in more vulnerable situations, such as addiction, lack of economic/ housing freedoms/ possibilities or custodial challenges. But that would be entirely speculative and unless there is any evidence to the contrary, I’d be more comfortable assuming there is no specific reason that explains why up to a third of DV victims go back to someone who has abused them.
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Another good one
 
RedRonaldo said:
It’s up for debate. People are suggesting punishment of some sorts, what’s your take?
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That he should never play for United again.


Longshanks said:
Noone is ever proven innocent
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Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, Timothy Evans, to name but a few. Andrew Malkinson, just lately has been proven innocent and released from prison after decades.

People are proven innocent.

Mason Greenwood is not one of them.
 
Longshanks said:
Mason Greenwood is assumed innocent as it stands, and there simply isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise. At the moment at the very least. Noone is ever proven innocent, innocence is always assumed until proven otherwise.

The we can't be sure nothing has been proven argument is the backbone of a fair trial. If you can't be sure prove it. It you can't prove it, move on.

The argument is that by the laws of the land he hasn't been found guilty of any crime, so why are alot of people acting like he has, and actively trying to stop him from re-starting his career?
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I don't think anyone is acting like Greenwood is in jail, so no one is acting like he has been found guilty.
 
The Red Thinker said:
Some context: the CPS have a notoriously poor record for converting domestic abuse charges. It’s been in steady decline for a decade but over the last 2 years, it halved. Which by any metric is disturbing drop as crime doesn’t magically stop happening at that rate anywhere. Source - https://amp.theguardian.com/society...ales-halved-since-2015-while-offences-doubled

And in many cases, the victim drops charges and goes back to the abuser. This is an unfortunate reality and something deeply psychological and sociological. In most of these cases, women need the steady income to keep their kids under a roof. Now in Greenwood’s case, turns out his girlfriend became pregnant. Mason was charged in Oct 2022 and the charges dropped in Feb 2023 due to lack of evidence and the victim dropping out. Baby born in July 2023. The allegations however were brought up in Jan 2022.

This indicates that despite Mason being charged by the CPS, they engaged in relations and that eventually produced a baby. Was the abuse continuing? Or were they consensually engaging?

It’s very messy. Mason was horrible for what he did. Mason seems to have turned over a new leaf with the same person. Both can be true.

What comes next? I think we need to hear directly from his girlfriend regarding what happened. That will decide public opinion on this.
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I'm uncomfortable with saying we the public need to hear directly from his girlfriend (Fiance?). If the partner has taken him back, both families are happy that they are together and Manchester United are satisfied with what they have seen then that should be enough.
 
SilentWitness said:
This isn't necessarily true. Though they could have gone ahead with prosecution they could also have ran the risk of the witness being a hostile witness which could harm the chances of prosecution and thus despite what the extended audio may have been (even if more of the same) they may have weighed up how likely it is they would have succeeded in court and dropped it due to that.
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Such prosecutions just about never proceeding when the complainant withdraws their cooperation because it makes reaching the required "beyond a reasonable doubt" almost impossible to achieve.
 
I believe there is a way back for Greenwood at United which would require himself and his partner been interviewed , this would be a big call and also a risky move. The other question is would they like to come back to England and have to deal with the media harassment and the parasite celbs trying to gain publicity from their grandstanding on the aledged incident.
I'm sure the aledged incident and aftermath caused enormous stress for both families.
As I'm not involved in their lives I have no right to play God on what aledged happened, all I can say this couple look like they are trying to rebuild their lives together and deserve the chance to do it without others playing god for their own benefit.
On the footballing side, Greenwood is a GENERATIONAL talent, the best young player to come through in 20 years. I am a Hugh fan of Greenwood and would love to have seen him back but its not my gift to give.
If The couple and United next move were purely about football he would be at OT at the moment but there are so many factors to consider with no perfect solution.
Remember aledgely mistakes were made that this couple are trying to work through to rebuild their lives, they deserve to be left alone to do so.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
So: have the police ever said why they didn’t prosecute, or did the United investigators ever say what they found out, or did the girlfriend/wife ever say how what we all saw and heard was not what we all saw and heard?
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The CPS would presumably be who decided to discontinue the prosecution (District Attorney's office is likely the US equivalent).

The complainant withdrawing her cooperation, plus "new evidence", which hasn't been confirmed, but is rumoured to be family or friends making subsequent statements to the police. Of course I have no way to confirm or deny this as it is just stuff flying around on Twitter.

The complainant withdrawing cooperation is almost always enough to get a prosecution withdrawn in criminal cases I believe.
 
Mylock said:
Remember aledgely mistakes were made that this couple are trying to work through to rebuild their lives, they deserve to be left alone to do so.
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Mistakes?

Woopsy. I accidentally threatened to rape you. My bad.
 
izak said:
We should be considering bring him back, If his girlfriend can forgive him, I mean the actual person who the crime was committed on, why won't you as a person forgive and move on!?
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Bad post.

MinGin said:
Becuase there is so many people are claimed moral high ground and they think they are better and knew more than police, judge and his girlfriend herself.
Also, The brand of United is a attention grabber, you can receive a tons of like & sharing when you release your opinion about United (espcially against United) even you knew nothing or only read from news or somebody.
Let's see our new owner whether having a ball to let Mason back.
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Bad post.

Yakuza_devils said:
Another good one
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Bad post.
 
Wibble said:
Mistakes?

Woopsy. I accidentally threatened to rape you. My bad.
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I don't know what happened between the couple and i am wise enough not to pretend to know. You on the other hand seem know exactly and have made your own conclusion.
 
Mylock said:
I don't know what happened between the couple and i am wise enough not to pretend to know. You on the other hand seem know exactly and have made your own conclusion.
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I don’t think you can dispute that he did threaten to rape her. It’s there in public for all to hear.

what’s not known is context
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Getafe's record transfer cost 12 million euros. It is very unlikely that they offered 40 million pounds for Mason Greenwood.
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If they were planning to flip him for a profit then why not? They’ll never be in a position to sign someone like this ever again.
Hes a 100m player imo
 
Wibble said:
Peak whataboutism. A player from the 70s was a drunk with form for DV, albeit not as bad as Greenwood as far as we know, so let's forget Greenwood's behaviour. Nice one.
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Yep, football ever day of the week is about 'whataboutism'. Its absolutely hilarious as thats what we spend half the time doing on here. We also celebrate our achievements from the past but for you lets not mention in this context, cause it was in the 70's.
Even more peak, you grade it 'not as bad as Greenwood'. Ask the wives of Best how bad it was, especially the one that its alleged arm was broken during an argument.
Even more, ask Best son who witnessed some of it.
Bad as it appears, Greenwood remains unsubstantiated, the other is an admission from Best himself.
Great...
 
Litch said:
Yep, football ever day of the week is about 'whataboutism'. Its absolutely hilarious as thats what we spend half the time doing on here. We also celebrate our achievements from the past but for you lets not mention in this context, cause it was in the 70's.
Even more peak, you grade it 'not as bad as Greenwood'. Ask the wives of Best how bad it was, especially the one that its alleged arm was broken during an argument.
Even more, ask Best son who witnessed some of it.
Bad as it appears, Greenwood remains unsubstantiated, the other is an admission from Best himself.
Great...
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Freudian slip?
 
Wibble said:
The CPS would presumably be who decided to discontinue the prosecution (District Attorney's office is likely the US equivalent).

The complainant withdrawing her cooperation, plus "new evidence", which hasn't been confirmed, but is rumoured to be family or friends making subsequent statements to the police. Of course I have no way to confirm or deny this as it is just stuff flying around on Twitter.

The complainant withdrawing cooperation is almost always enough to get a prosecution withdrawn in criminal cases I believe.
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Victimless prosecutions are more common now than they once were. Especially in serious cases. This is in response to the fact a large number of victims of domestic abuse withdraw or refuse to support a prosecution.

Also new material coming to light will be evidential material relevant to the case. That’s the context material is given in terms of a file for a prosecution case.

From what you have said about the rumours online, and the statement from the CPS, it would seem the case has fell apart for two reasons.

1) Withdrawal of key witnesses
2) New material that undermined the case

Now for the first it would appear the victim withdrew her support a long time ago however it is possible a prosecution was being explored without the victim relying on third party evidence such as witness statements detail coercion and controlling behaviour. This would help evidence the offence in full given the points to prove for the offence. You’d also have the images and recordings to support the rest.

If these third party witnesses then withdrew themselves this would make the task even more difficult however you’d still have the rest of the evidence to consider (attempted rape, assault etc)

For the second part this very much suggests something else was unearthed which is tangible and casted doubt on the case. We don’t know what that is but I believe it is something other than the above.
 
golden_blunder said:
Evan Rachel Wood
“He was a sports hero. He was also a rapist. And all of these truths can exist simultaneously."

Says it all really
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Yep, it does. We all at times compartmentalise our view. Off topic but not too dissimilar to Michael J, some still listen to his music but others refuse to, given the allegations. Some believe he's done it but separate the artist from the alleged crimes against children.
 
Litch said:
Yep, football ever day of the week is about 'whataboutism'. Its absolutely hilarious as thats what we spend half the time doing on here. We also celebrate our achievements from the past but for you lets not mention in this context, cause it was in the 70's.
Even more peak, you grade it 'not as bad as Greenwood'. Ask the wives of Best how bad it was, especially the one that its alleged arm was broken during an argument.
Even more, ask Best son who witnessed some of it.
Bad as it appears, Greenwood remains unsubstantiated, the other is an admission from Best himself.
Great...
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This isn't about football per se. It is about not wanting someone like Greenwood being associated with an entity we are associated with.
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t think you can dispute that he did threaten to rape her. It’s there in public for all to hear.

what’s not known is context
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When I heard that audio I was shocked as anyone else, especially given that his partner presented a form of context which implied that he threatened to rape her and also physically assaulted her.

However we now have statements from United and Richard Arnold that the context for the audio, video and photos are now different according to the accuser’s family (this is mentioned in RA’s statement - I’m also not going to speculate whether the alleged victim herself confirmed that the context is different because that is not explicitly mentioned in RA’s statement).

So either we accept United’s position (who have a more informed understanding of the context, and are not legally obliged to share it) or not accept it.

But if we don’t accept United’s findings, I think we shouldn’t also share speculative opinions as facts - that is misinformation. Or we should at least state that our interpretation of the the audio/video is a speculative opinion and not a fact when we do discuss it.

I’m not in the camp of ‘she forgave him so let’s give him a second chance’ because that is not reason enough to clear him and let him play for United, I’m also not in the camp of ‘the leaked evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what he’s accused of doing’ because we don’t have the full story - I believe whether he’s cleared or not depends on complete facts (including the footage, context and witness statements), and it is currently United (not even the CPS) who seem to have that.

Maybe the FA or the CPS again (even though that’s not their job) steps in here and acts as an impartial investigator (given the club’s investigation will be considered biased) and reviews the complete evidence again and gives a conclusion? I suppose that puts this debate to bed once and for all.
 
cyberman said:
If they were planning to flip him for a profit then why not? They’ll never be in a position to sign someone like this ever again.
Hes a 100m player imo
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Because it's too risky and therefore doesn't make any sense.

People are throwing around numbers like they're meaningless, but they aren't. 100m transfers are rare. Very few clubs can afford them; only six PL transfers have ever been over 100m.

Outside of the PL, only the top top clubs like Real Madrid, Bayern, etc. could afford something like that.

Greenwood hasn't been anywhere near as good for Getafe to merit any top club spending 100m on him or anything close to that. Add in his PR troubles and the risk is high. More PL clubs could afford it but the PR troubles are even worse there.

Getafe doesn't have the money to take the risk on this "flip" and he has not been good enough for them to justify spending 40m and having to keep him.

A good deal for them would be buying him for 'cheap' (10-20m) and then selling him for 'cheap by PL standards' (30-40m).
 
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Litch said:
Yep, football ever day of the week is about 'whataboutism'. Its absolutely hilarious as thats what we spend half the time doing on here. We also celebrate our achievements from the past but for you lets not mention in this context, cause it was in the 70's.
Even more peak, you grade it 'not as bad as Greenwood'. Ask the wives of Best how bad it was, especially the one that its alleged arm was broken during an argument.
Even more, ask Best son who witnessed some of it.
Bad as it appears, Greenwood remains unsubstantiated, the other is an admission from Best himself.
Great...
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If we're retrospectively asking questions of those affected by domestic violence perhaps we need to ask them if the violence that if they encountered was to become public how would they expect the club/fans/media to react to this? Maybe the club knew? Maybe this violence was also dismissed/explained by historic violence? All instances of domestic violence/sexual assault such as the Mason Greenwood situation should be used as an opportunity to stop future attacks, just because they were missed in this past doesn't mean Mason gets a pass, he got exposed for doing something horrendous, if his treatment by fans/media/club seem disproportionate to previous similar abusers then personally I'm not in the least bit arsed, what matters is that domestic abuse and sexual violence is called out, always.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
But despite Greenwood breaching court ordered bail conditions to have sex with his alleged victim of coercion, attempted rape and actual bodily harm I’m sure there’s many a poster willing to ignore he broke the law to have sex with his victim that resulted in her being pregnant and the case being dropped 3 months later at the time of which they would be having an early pregnancy scan.

That’s all just co-incidence…
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This.

The thing that was the sketchiest to me was the moment her father released the statement the next day.


Not a good look at all. “She didn’t want it released”, “Their relationship has not been good for the last few months” ??? This is so poor and screams abuse.
You don’t go to the papers straight away when your daughter was allegedly abused. You take your time and try to understand her in the first place.
 
If her family are protecting Greenwood and have sent her to another country with him, they are as culpable as he is.

This is also gross negligence by Manchester Utd PLC.
 
Wibble said:
This isn't about football per se. It is about not wanting someone like Greenwood being associated with an entity we are associated with.
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Its all about football!!! If it wasnt, it doesnt generate this interest. Someone like Greenwood?
 
RedDevilUnited369 said:
If her family are protecting Greenwood and have sent her to another country with him, they are as culpable as he is.

This is also gross negligence by Manchester Utd PLC.
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Seems Greenwood and his girlfriend have a life. They shouldn’t decide on their lives, everyone else should.
 
neon_badger said:
If we're retrospectively asking questions of those affected by domestic violence perhaps we need to ask them if the violence that if they encountered was to become public how would they expect the club/fans/media to react to this? Maybe the club knew? Maybe this violence was also dismissed/explained by historic violence? All instances of domestic violence/sexual assault such as the Mason Greenwood situation should be used as an opportunity to stop future attacks, just because they were missed in this past doesn't mean Mason gets a pass, he got exposed for doing something horrendous, if his treatment by fans/media/club seem disproportionate to previous similar abusers then personally I'm not in the least bit arsed, what matters is that domestic abuse and sexual violence is called out, always.
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Yes agree but as already said 1000x, that only works if hes done it. What we believe it to be true is one thing but where does that stop with regard to our actions?

Would like to see what happens if we decided in football that we'll just ignore the refs or VAR decision, no penalty and give ourselves the 3 points cause fans believe they are right!!! We all seen it wasnt a penalty??
 
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RedDevilUnited369 said:
If her family are protecting Greenwood and have sent her to another country with him, they are as culpable as he is.

This is also gross negligence by Manchester Utd PLC.
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As is baseless speculation. By all accounts all parties are comfortable with the decision United has taken.
 
rooneyberbatov said:
This.

The thing that was the sketchiest to me was the moment her father released the statement the next day.


Not a good look at all. “She didn’t want it released”, “Their relationship has not been good for the last few months” ??? This is so poor and screams abuse.
You don’t go to the papers straight away when your daughter was allegedly abused. You take your time and try to understand her in the first place.
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Yup. That does not scream “this is all a misunderstanding and there is a perfectly sanitary explanation for this”.
 
looks like Barcelona are now trying to get in the mix to sign him in january or next summer
 
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