Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player

[Canuckred64]

As I understand it, it's mainly about too many "ethnic minority" actors getting prominent parts in Hollywood productions.

It also has something to do with women taking over the world.

To be honest this situation has nothing to do with "woke". There is not a for and against side when it comes to abusing women. There is only an against. Some of those who are against Greenwood ever playing for United may indeed be "woke" on other issues, but their "wokeness" has little or nothing to do with their position on the the Greenwood situation.

As a Christian and a Conservative , I certainly have an opinion on "woke", but this thread is about Mason Greenwood , on what he was accused of and whether he should play for United again, not on the "woke" phenomenon.

 

[Strelok]

By all accounts Jude is an outstanding young man, let's hope they stay close and he can have a positive impact on Mason

I just got downvoted to oblivion on Reddit for defending Bellingham. People there think he should cut/shun MG off instead of helping him. Or he must be a shitty person since they're still friends.

 

[Gycraig]

“Woke” just basically means people who disagree with you now doesn’t it.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Woke means awake

 

[Chesterlestreet]

To be honest this situation has nothing to do with "woke".

That's right.

It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[LDUred]

The galling thing is how players like Partey can carry on like it is business as usual while we have to sack off a player we have brought through the ranks.

Our players are held to a higher standard.

Realistically, John Terry should not have been allowed to carry on his Chelsea career, and yet he seemed to walk away from the Anton Ferdinand affair with the full support of Chelsea Football Club.

If that were Harry Maguire mouthing off to Bukayo Saka, he would have to reconstruct his career in another country.

Personally I feel that Greenwood has to go but we can't blind ourselves to the blatant double standards that exist in English football.

 

[TsuWave]

To be honest this situation has nothing to do with "woke". There is not a for and against side when it comes to abusing women. There is only an against. Some of those who are against Greenwood ever playing for United may indeed be "woke" on other issues, but their "wokeness" has little or nothing to do with their position on the the Greenwood situation.

As a Christian and a Conservative , I certainly have an opinion on "woke", but this thread is about Mason Greenwood , on what he was accused of and whether he should play for United again, not on the "woke" phenomenon.

Do you think there's a for and against sides to woke? What is the woke phenomenon? How does being a christian and a conservative affect your views?

 

[Red_Aaron]

I just got downvoted to oblivion on Reddit for defending Bellingham. People there think he should cut/shun MG off instead of helping him. Or he must be a shitty person since they're still friends.

Whatever anyone's views are on where or indeed whether Mason should play football surely everyone wants him to improve as a human being? Having good examples around him to learn from can only be a positive for society as a whole never mind his immediate family ffs

 

[dubplate warrior]

Who cares about Oppo fans?

Ronaldo was villian no.1 after Rooney world cup incident and we almost sold him.

And next 2 years he became best in the world.

That's cause Ferguson stood with him and made the club too.

So we never nearly sold him.

 

[Canuckred64]

Do you think there's a for and against sides to woke? What is the woke phenomenon? How does being a christian and a conservative affect your views?

There would be no debate if there werent sides. I am not sure if you have really want answers to your questions or whether you are looking for an argument. I apologize if I am being assumptious, but I am just an old cynic. You can find people willing to discuss your questions in the Current Events thread in the General Discussion forum . Personally I come to Redcafe for the football discussion and to get away from the serious topics in life.

 

[MackRobinson]

I'd rather be woke than wilfully ignorant. The use of "woke" as a slur just shows a lack of imagination or critical thinking.

 

[TsuWave]

There would be no debate if there werent sides. I am not sure if you have really want answers to your questions or whether you are looking for an argument. I apologize if I am being assumptious, but I am just an old cynic. You can find people willing to discuss your questions in the Current Events thread in the General Discussion forum . Personally I come to Redcafe for the football discussion and to get away from the serious topics in life.

You say this after jumping in this thread and declaring - "there is not a for and against side when it comes to abusing women" - cool, so far so good. Then when asked if you think there's different sides to woke, your response is "there would be no debate if there weren't sides". Keep in mind that the "woke" discussion in this thread as framed by the last couple of pages; pertains to how misused and bastardised that word has been to the point it is now a dogwhistle - hence why I asked you what do you understand by woke or what do you declare and label under "the woke phenomenon" - whatever that may be - and how being Christian and Conservative informs your views, since you went out of your way to emphasise those two qualifiers.

The whole I come to Redcafe for football and not serious topics in life jostling doesn't even make sense considering the thread you find yourself in and your previous post Does football exist in a vacuum outside of "real life serious topics"?

 

[JagUTD]

As someone who once did 5 days awake, I feel a lot of people underestimating sleep in this thread.

Things got weird.

 

[Canuckred64]

I'd rather be woke than wilfully ignorant. The use of "woke" as a slur just shows a lack of imagination or critical thinking.

Don't underestimate the beauty of ignorance. I am pushing 70 and I am tired, they don't say ignorance is bliss for nothing.

 

[MackRobinson]

Don't underestimate the beauty of ignorance. I am pushing 70 and I am tired, they don't say ignorance is bliss for nothing.

Ignorance is fine. Wilful ignorance is abhorrent and evil.

 

[JB7]

Yeah, the thing is most of these people aren’t my friends, they’re just random Utd fans that I’ve chatted to. Some of them are people I wouldn’t wanna hang out with, some of them are people I would.

I always wear a Utd pin badge (Glazers Out) on my jacket and so any other Utd fan I encounter will start talking Utd with me, and the Greenwood issue is a big talking point.

In other instances it’s been people delivering shopping, sometimes non Utd fans but footy fans - they always say the same thing in varying degrees of eloquence, ‘bring him back’, ‘it’s unfair’ etc.

In my family, where there’s lots of match goers, it honestly ranges from Daily Mail reading, old boomers to life long left leaning feminists with doctorates (my auntie) and again all of these people say ‘bring him back’ after the case was dropped.

Even within my family, these aren’t really my friends.

It has surprised me, given the split within redcafe.

In all honesty it’s felt quite surreal tbh.

Also the overwhelming support he’s getting on Getafe’s media posts are all from Utd fans - Getafe don’t even have that many fans globally.

These are Utd fans buying Getafe shirts and liking their posts and supporting him.

You may not like it, but that’s the reality.

Fair enough pal, I’m not saying you’re wrong or anything like that it’s just surprising the marked difference like you say really. It’s interesting in some ways.

 

[Canuckred64]

You say this after jumping in this thread and declaring - "there is not a for and against side when it comes to abusing women" - cool, so far so good. Then when asked if you think there's different sides to woke, your response is "there would be no debate if there weren't sides". Keep in mind that the "woke" discussion in this thread as framed by the last couple of pages; pertains to how misused and bastardised that word has been to the point it is now a dogwhistle - hence why I asked you what do you understand by woke or what do you declare and label under "the woke phenomenon" - whatever that may be - and how being Christian and Conservative informs your views, since you went out of your way to emphasise those two qualifiers.

The whole I come to Redcafe for football and not serious topics in life jostling doesn't even make sense considering the thread you find yourself in and your previous post Does football exist in a vacuum outside of "real life serious topics"?

Football should exist in a vacuum. It's entertainment and only entertainment. There has to be times and places in life where you can relax and just forget about other things and for me that's in watching football.

 

[Maroon Lucifer]

Yeah, the thing is most of these people aren’t my friends, they’re just random Utd fans that I’ve chatted to. Some of them are people I wouldn’t wanna hang out with, some of them are people I would.

I always wear a Utd pin badge (Glazers Out) on my jacket and so any other Utd fan I encounter will start talking Utd with me, and the Greenwood issue is a big talking point.

In other instances it’s been people delivering shopping, sometimes non Utd fans but footy fans - they always say the same thing in varying degrees of eloquence, ‘bring him back’, ‘it’s unfair’ etc.

In my family, where there’s lots of match goers, it honestly ranges from Daily Mail reading, old boomers to life long left leaning feminists with doctorates (my auntie) and again all of these people say ‘bring him back’ after the case was dropped.

Even within my family, these aren’t really my friends.

It has surprised me, given the split within redcafe.

In all honesty it’s felt quite surreal tbh.

Also the overwhelming support he’s getting on Getafe’s media posts are all from Utd fans - Getafe don’t even have that many fans globally.

These are Utd fans buying Getafe shirts and liking their posts and supporting him.

You may not like it, but that’s the reality.

I have to agree. The conversations about Greenwood I have with people in the real world do not reflect what I see on here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Realistically, John Terry should not have been allowed to carry on his Chelsea career, and yet he seemed to walk away from the Anton Ferdinand affair with the full support of Chelsea Football Club.

If that were Harry Maguire mouthing off to Bukayo Saka, he would have to reconstruct his career in another country.

What's your point? If Maguire had been caught "mouthing off" to Saka (meaning: calling him a "feckin' black cnut"), United would've kicked him out on his arse (I would very much hope so), and your take on that would've been...what?

Not fair, 'cause Chelsea didn't do it (12 years ago)?

Or: yeah, fair, but still: Chelsea didn't do it (12 years ago)?

Seriously, I fail to see any meaningful point here.

"It's only 'cause it's United." Is that your actual take on it?

 

[TsuWave]

Football should exist in a vacuum. It's entertainment and only entertainment. There has to be times and places in life where you can relax and just forget about other things and for me that's in watching football.

This makes no sense considering the origins of club football as we know it today. It also doesn’t actually answer the question if football exists in a vacuum which in itself was criticism of the comical “I come to Redcafe for football and not serious topics in life” stance (in this thread no less) - and tries to sidestep with a supposed vision of an ideal world. Well, in an ideal world there wouldn’t be -ah, you know what. You said something about woke and I asked you to elaborate on what do you understand by and label under “woke phenomenon”, and how your views are informed by the qualifiers you specified. You’ve ran away - and I’ll take that as my answer.

 

[McTerminator]

As someone who once did 5 days awake, I feel a lot of people underestimating sleep in this thread.

Things got weird.

I feel you.

Three days here and it’s the worst.

 

[Canuckred64]

This makes no sense considering the origins of club football as we know it today. It also doesn’t actually answer the question if football exists in a vacuum which in itself was criticism of the comical “I come to Redcafe for football and not serious topics in life” stance (in this thread no less) - and tries to sidestep with a supposed vision of an ideal world. Well, in an ideal world there wouldn’t be -ah, you know what. You said something about woke and I asked you to elaborate on what do you understand by and label under “woke phenomenon”, and how your views are informed by the qualifiers you specified. You’ve ran away - and I’ll take that as my answer.

My understanding and views on "woke" have nothing to do with my support of Manchester United. This is a football forum, I am willing to discuss football, but nothing else.

 

[Raoul]

As someone who once did 5 days awake, I feel a lot of people underestimating sleep in this thread.

Things got weird.

Can't imagine ever trying something like that. I did a five day water fast during the pandemic, which was pretty interesting given the level of tricks the mind plays on you.

Football should exist in a vacuum. It's entertainment and only entertainment. There has to be times and places in life where you can relax and just forget about other things and for me that's in watching football

I tend to agree. Football should be about escape and entertainment. The obvious exceptions being where players break the law, at which point they have to face the legal system and club investigations, neither of which will evade scrutiny of fans.

 

[JagUTD]

Can't imagine ever trying something like that. I did a five day water fast during the pandemic, which was pretty interesting given the level of tricks the mind plays on you.



I tend to agree. Football should be about escape and entertainment. The obvious exceptions being where players break the law, at which point they have to face the legal system and club investigations, neither of which will evade scrutiny of fans.

Going back quite a few years to when I was probably 18/19, out for Wednesday Champions League, get carried away, nightclubs would be open midweek, Thursday quids in then before you know it it's Sunday evening and you've met all the gods, wearing clothes you don't own in a house in a town you've never been to or heard of with a receipt from Charnock Richards services when you don't even drive.

Would recommend.

 

[sizzling sausages]

The galling thing is how players like Partey can carry on like it is business as usual while we have to sack off a player we have brought through the ranks.

Our players are held to a higher standard.

Realistically, John Terry should not have been allowed to carry on his Chelsea career, and yet he seemed to walk away from the Anton Ferdinand affair with the full support of Chelsea Football Club.

If that were Harry Maguire mouthing off to Bukayo Saka, he would have to reconstruct his career in another country.

Personally I feel that Greenwood has to go but we can't blind ourselves to the blatant double standards that exist in English football.

If any of those incidents were captured with clear audio and pictures like Greenwood was then those players wouldn't be able to continue playing. It has nothing to do with him playing for United.

 

[Canuckred64]

Can't imagine ever trying something like that. I did a five day water fast during the pandemic, which was pretty interesting given the level of tricks the mind plays on you.



I tend to agree. Football should be about escape and entertainment. The obvious exceptions being where players break the law, at which point they have to face the legal system and club investigations, neither of which will evade scrutiny of fans.

I agree when they break the law it's different and the scrutiny is warranted, but if they are acquitted or charges are dropped , we should move on.

 

[TsuWave]

My understanding and views on "woke" have nothing to do with my support of Manchester United. This is a football forum, I am willing to discuss football, but nothing else.

I didn’t question your support of Manchester United. I questioned your understanding and views on woke because you spoke on them in this same Manchester United forum that you say you only use to discuss football. Like I said, you ran and that’s OK.

I tend to agree. Football should be about escape and entertainment. The obvious exceptions being where players break the law, at which point they have to face the legal system and club investigations, neither of which will evade scrutiny of fans.

Yet clubs and football orgs often go out or their way to tell you how they’re about more than just that.

 

[MackRobinson]

As someone who once did 5 days awake, I feel a lot of people underestimating sleep in this thread.

Things got weird.

The longest I've stayed awake was two and half days, but it was drug and alcohol-induced. Felt fine during it, but after I felt like I was dying for the next day and a half.

 

[Raoul]

I didn’t question your support of Manchester United. I questioned your understanding and views on woke because you spoke on them in this same Manchester United forum that you say you only use to discuss football. Like I said, you ran and that’s OK.

Yet clubs and football orgs often go out or their way to tell you how they’re about more than just that.

They do yes - mainly as a way to enhance their brand reputation in the age of social media.

 

[adexkola]

They do yes - mainly as a way to enhance their brand reputation in the age of social media.

It's like reading BP's mission and concluding they actually care about the environment.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

My understanding and views on "woke" have nothing to do with my support of Manchester United. This is a football forum, I am willing to discuss football, but nothing else.

I don’t get this, Greenwood obviously hasn't played, or you would have heard about it, the title of this thread would probably be changed, so why come in here when the only discussion could possibly about whether we are comfortable with him coming back to the squad after his loan.

1, it is about football, it's about whether a player will play for us, same as the Aurnotovic transfer thread a couple of windows ago

2, if you don't want to discuss this don't, no one is forcing you

 

[TsuWave]

It's like reading BP's mission and concluding they actually care about the environment.

Would have worked better if you’d said like reading BP’s mission and holding them to it.

They do yes - mainly as a way to enhance their brand reputation in the age of social media.

The intent/purpose of their actions isn’t in question - but if you say you do/are xyz. Sometimes people will demand/expect you to be and do xyz. Therefore as long as football wants to sell itself as more than just entertainment it can’t exist as just escapism/entertainment. What even is this conversation?

This is a thread in which Manchester United had to back down from reintegrating a player due to public pressure. This forum has a thread about the potential sale of the club in which roughly half of the replies are people saying we shouldn’t be sold to ABC because this that and the other. Are we going to really pretend football is just or should just be about escape and entertainment? Some of the biggest and/or oldest clubs were formed as/out of community efforts. The sport is heavily politicised - always has been. What is this?

 

[Canuckred64]

I don’t get this, Greenwood obviously hasn't played, or you would have heard about it, the title of this thread would probably be changed, so why come in here when the only discussion could possibly about whether we are comfortable with him coming back to the squad after his loan.

1, it is about football, it's about whether a player will play for us, same as the Aurnotovic transfer thread a couple of windows ago

2, if you don't want to discuss this don't, no one is forcing you

I didn't say we should not discuss whether we are comfortable about him playing for United again. That's a viable topic, because it is football related. Somebody brought up that they considered opposition to him coming back as woke. I just said this situation has nothing to do with being woke, that you should be against the abuse of women whether you are woke or not. I was asked how my religious and a political beliefs impacted on my understanding and views on woke, That's where the comment you quoted came in, so I said I only want to discuss football matters, but fot the record I do consider whether Greenwood comes back or not to be a football matter. What woke is and how my religious and political beliefs impact on my understanding and views on woke isn't a football matter, and I don't wish to discuss them.

 

[sglowrider]

100 %.
Cancel culture has always existed in a way but in the woke form is a pretty new phenomenon. Its strong but authoritarian at the same time and still not fully worked out.
The thing about it is that there is no path to forgiveness or rehabilitation. Once you are deemed unacceptable you are essentially written off.

Other countries and cultures do it much better, even within Europe.
Scandinavian countries are good at rehabilitating people, southern countries have a more relaxed attitude etc.
Anglo culture is becoming this very rotten thing IMO and this is one example. There is no forgiveness none ever no rehabilitation. Its just so culturally wrong to just write people off like that. There needs to be some reflection about that.
Greenwood can never ever be seen as a normal person in England and same goes for his wife too I think.
Especially given they were 20 at the time, its just wrong.

Completely agree. It's a naive world of absolutes -- like when they first found out that their dad had a fault.

No sense of humility; trying to pass judgement on others when you know... stones, glasshouses etc -- when especially in this case we have not heard the entire story or at least allow the parties involve to speak. And then allowing them to redeem themselves.

 

[Raoul]

Would have worked better if you’d said like reading BP’s mission and holding them to it.



The intent/purpose of their actions isn’t in question - but if you say you do/are xyz. Sometimes people will demand/expect you to be and do xyz. Therefore as long as football wants to sell itself as more than just entertainment it can’t exist as just escapism/entertainment. What even is this conversation?

This is a thread in which Manchester United had to back down from reintegrating a player due to public pressure. This forum has a thread about the potential sale of the club in which roughly half of the replies are people saying we shouldn’t be sold to ABC because this that and the other. Are we going to really pretend football is just or should just be about escape and entertainment? Some of the biggest and/or oldest clubs were formed as/out of community efforts. The sport is heavily politicised - always has been. What is this?

That's the nature of social media and forums. There will always be moral and/or politicized angles to a range of side stories related to clubs and players. That has nothing to do with the core nature of the football itself and the fan experience of watching/attending matches. Its an addendum to the football that is fanned on by technology and the nature of social media where a lot of people with internet addictions find themselves commenting on things they wouldn't ordinarily care about in real life. This is a completely separate phenomenon from the football itself.

 

[saivet]

He's also apparently pals with Jude Bellingham, who plays in the same city, which should help him out.

To be honest they probably weren't or aren't all that close friends. They've never been in the youth or first team squads together and currently don't follow each other on social media either. Maybe things will change since they are now in the same area but taking that one with a pinch of salt.

 

[adexkola]

Would have worked better if you’d said like reading BP’s mission and holding them to it.

"Holding them to it", "believing them", same difference. Mission statements aren't worth the paper or website they're written on, unless backed by consistent actions.

I'm more inclined to agree with @Raoul on mission statements fitting well within branding and today's social media landscape.

Proof of concept: ours is so fecking vacuous that any decision that the club made on this matter, I could make a case that it fit within the spirit of the mission statement.

Plus, the over/under on the percentage of fans who are even aware we have a mission statement? I'd say 3% and that is me being generous.

 

[sizzling sausages]

100 %.
Cancel culture has always existed in a way but in the woke form is a pretty new phenomenon. Its strong but authoritarian at the same time and still not fully worked out.
The thing about it is that there is no path to forgiveness or rehabilitation. Once you are deemed unacceptable you are essentially written off.

Other countries and cultures do it much better, even within Europe.
Scandinavian countries are good at rehabilitating people, southern countries have a more relaxed attitude etc.
Anglo culture is becoming this very rotten thing IMO and this is one example. There is no forgiveness none ever no rehabilitation. Its just so culturally wrong to just write people off like that. There needs to be some reflection about that.
Greenwood can never ever be seen as a normal person in England and same goes for his wife too I think.
Especially given they were 20 at the time, its just wrong.

Completely agree. It's a naive world of absolutes -- like when they first found out that their dad had a fault.

No sense of humility; trying to pass judgement on others when you know... stones, glasshouses etc -- when especially in this case we have not heard the entire story or at least allow the parties involve to speak. And then allowing them to redeem themselves.

Both of these are just nonsense posts.

If Greenwood came out and admitted it was him in the audio but he's very regretful and determined to make up for a horrible error, then people would be far more likely to be okay with this 2nd chance he's been given.

And he's had 20 months to speak, if he had something to say that'd clear him he would've released it by now. But all he has said was a short denial, while admitting some mistakes but providing no details. Which to be fair I don't expect, but then you shouldn't expect everyone to just accept that.

As for the stones in glass houses comment, Jesus fecking Christ. So because people have done something wrong before, it means they can't condemn domestic violence now? Ridiculous.

 

[RVN1991]

Both of these are just nonsense posts.

If Greenwood came out and admitted it was him in the audio but he's very regretful and determined to make up for a horrible error, then people would be far more likely to be okay with this 2nd chance he's been given.

And he's had 20 months to speak, if he had something to say that'd clear him he would've released it by now. But all he has said was a short denial, while admitting some mistakes but providing no details. Which to be fair I don't expect, but then you shouldn't expect everyone to just accept that.

As for the stones in glass houses comment, Jesus fecking Christ. So because people have done something wrong before, it means they can't condemn domestic violence now? Ridiculous.

This. Instead it's just excuses from him, the club and the apologists.

I'm really curious to see what the narrative will be if in a years time he struggles to make an impact at Getafe. Will the women beater apologists still want him at the club? will they pretend they never wanted him back? or will they again blame the woke crowd for Greenwood ruining his own career because of his own choices?

 

[Yorke to Cole]

If any of those incidents were captured with clear audio and pictures like Greenwood was then those players wouldn't be able to continue playing. It has nothing to do with him playing for United.

I disagree. The player at Arsenal was arrested twice and and bailed pending enquiries or charges.

Like I have previously explained, the law accounts for everyone. The attention brought onto the 2 United players, particularly the Antony case (where he has not yet been arrested or charged) has stratospheriic in comparison.

Regardless of an audio, the first player had charges dropped. However, an uncomfortable truth this is it is innocent or in Antony's case, presumed innocence until proven guilty.

This is why there should be an independent adjudicator to assist clubs to assess the severity of allegations to help decide whether a player can continue playing or not.