Fully agree. The false equivalences and volume of horrendous takes are depressing.
Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player
- Thread starter keithsingleton
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It should be.
Man i am in a similar boat. It would be very difficult to continue watching the club if that was the case. Incidentally i've stopped following F1 (where i used to see you post a lot) and i hope i am not pushed to do the same with United. Anyway a lot of people agree with you, as evidenced by this thread and the decision that Manchester United made (not the media as many hysterically claim) so don't lose total hope yet! I hope you are well.
It's a nice weekend. What you two have decided to do with yours, is to attempt to ridicule someone who was sexually abused as a child based on how they decide to try to avoid products made by people who have sexually abused other children.
What made you end up like this?
Well, would you or wouldn't you?
I'm not telling you to do anything, I just said that there were things I used to love that I can't love because redlines were crossed.
Read through my post history on this thread and apologize
Sorry that’s more what I meant. Too many are saying that it’s ok with her so that should get the end of it. There are too many examples of abused forgiving their abusers for it to be that simple
For people who says but they got back togethere so it wasnt DV
Well boys... it's domestic violence... domestic... woman can get abused for years before they finally snap.
Being still married while still being beaten up and coming back to the abuser for 101 illogical reasons actually happens in almost every case.
They never start with punches, first they start with yelling, shouts, abuse, then slap, then beat you up, all pf that coupled with probably some I'm sorry and I regret it in the middle.
Well boys... it's domestic violence... domestic... woman can get abused for years before they finally snap.
Being still married while still being beaten up and coming back to the abuser for 101 illogical reasons actually happens in almost every case.
They never start with punches, first they start with yelling, shouts, abuse, then slap, then beat you up, all pf that coupled with probably some I'm sorry and I regret it in the middle.
cheers
I can be very opinionated and it has got me in trouble , but this is very cut and dry for me and always will be.
Still post in F1 a lot, still a lot of Rivalries in it, but this season is not bad.
I have my opinions about the whole MG saga and principals.
Telling a random stranger they don't have the willpower is weird and lame. No need to apologize.
You seem to think choosing not to listen to an artist is some kind of virtue signal.
Your post should grow the feck up
I don’t even understand what that means. Point still stands
What point???
You have mixed him up with a different poster. He was right in what he said.
You're right, I'm sorry, this was the quote I mixed up with:
To which I replied:
Why do people bring this up as an explanation when neither Greenwood, the complainant or indeed anyone else connected to the case have?
Almost as if people are looking for excuses for him.
Exactly, surely if all it was all this time was that they were in to some weird kinky shit then greenwood and her would've come and said something alot sooner instead of his career basically being on hold for 2 years and possibly going to prison. I know I'd just come out and say it even it was embarrassing, to save myself. How can people not see this ffs, it's bonkers.
If there is no legal action and no personal action (they are back together) does that absolve the club and us as fans from standing up against what we know to be unequivocally morally wrong? Is it enough to simply have made noise about it now and then move on or should there be more?
I feel like we've reached the territory of an ethics case study. Sadly, the overwhelming sentiment in 12 months time will be to forget this and bring him back to United. Unless by some miracle there's a moral awakening across the globe in that time that's been strictly resisted for many decades
The club did not investigate and make a conclusion on whether Mason "did it" or not, nor could they have.
Society is inherently immoral. Seriously. So arguing and putting forward your differing standards and expecting people to agree is an exercise in futility. Now I understand why the mods refused to allow discussion on Greenwood. Everybody has a good and valid point of view. And let's leave it as that.
Looking forward to discussions on matches he is involved in this thread. Whether we want him to stay or leave United after the loan, him doing well is good for United either way.
We should find out where he is in terms of match fitness when they play Osasuna next Sunday.
Love me hate me but I want Greenwood back. Not defending what happened but assuming he can undergo counseling and change, I’d rather watch Greenwood than put up with antony or Sancho on the right. I’m convinced he would be absolutely world class player under ETH.
TBF they haven't written it off. He's out on loan and my guess is they'll bring him back. He's been out a long time, has players in front of him, and of course would have to deal with the outrage right away. This way the club can just let some other club take the initial hit, can see where he is at, he can develop elsewhere for a bit and get regular action and then in their heads bring him back in if they want to when the heat is lower.
That's my guess on how the club wants it to play out.
Which even made it more despicable as it shows that the club dont really care about moral... just timing and circumstances....
If United took him back without a proper solid new evidence of his innocence I'm done with this club
Which is absolutely no-one.
Pretty much every single poster in this thread has mentioned that abusers often remain with their abuser.
The other side of the argument isn’t that he definitely didn’t do it, or that his partner remaining with him is proof.
The argument is that United concluded he didn’t do as charged after hearing a longer version of the tape (likely extremely x-rated hence the reluctance to publish it to the public), and that all parties including her family (often the side in abuse cases most against the abuser who tend to drive a wedge between their abused and their families), and that the cps also concluded the didn’t have sufficient evidence for a conviction.
All of this should lead people to conclude quite simply, that they don’t have enough information to know the full story.
The argument isn’t guilty or innocent, it’s about being able to say I don’t know. If Johnny Depp’s case never went to court I think most of us, myself included (hence my stance on this) would have been that Depp was a drug abusing, alcoholic, violent domestic abusing scum of the Earth.
It’s ok to say I don’t know, that doesn’t make anyone less against domestic violence than those determined to be judge, jury and executioner on partial evidence.
My guess is that we’ll likely find out in a few years if he’s the monster many of us think he may be, as he’ll repeat the same mistakes and his partner will eventually reveal all. Until then though…
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Greenwood’s case can be one of redemption and be an example to young people that one can change and be an exemplary member of society.
Saying you dont know means you discarded the tape. You discarded her picture and cry for help for being abused, just because hey... they're still together
I know, we all know whats in that tape. And that's not something we dont know.
How hard is it for you to accept that? This is not a mere she says he says
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Absolutely not, the mere fact that Arnold has put his entire career on the line by mentioning a longer tape makes me think I likely don’t know everything about this tape and this story, but hey, you keep repeating that.
We all know hostage syndrome, hell my mum stayed with my old fella until us kids started high school, because she felt trapped, despite domestic abuse, mental abuse, affairs, so I’m in a very decent position to know why some partners remain in abusive relationships.
It’s just that in your certainty, we’d have to believe that for example Arnold has lied and put his entire career on the line (in the event the full tape becomes available and is damning), that seems beyond far fetched. We’d also have to believe her family has given full blessing to someone who horrendously abuses their daughter.
Or, these things can instead lead us to question our certainty in the matter? Nothing more, not declaring him innocent, or not-guilty, or a nice guy, or someone even worthy of playing for Manchester United again. Just a simple matter of humbly admitting that we simply can’t begin to know the full story of those events and the subsequent events thereafter.
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Arnold doesnt stick his nothing for this. He simply said trust me bro knowing that's the end of it based on something gray. Yet you rather believe him than a cold hard tape.
He doesnt even interview the alleged victim which the first recording came from yet somehow we have to believe his evidence is more substantial?
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No, I’m not certain at all, that’s the difference in our stances on this.
A few factors make me believe I can’t be certain.
I think having the view he shouldn’t play for United again unless evidence can be released to convince fans is a fine view/stance to have. I think being 100% of the facts of the case is something completely different and quite frankly naive.
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He could be but he says he didn't do it so what's he changing from or redeeming himself of?
Does a person have to publicly admit guilt as part of his repentance and reformation? I personally don't think so.
The club made a definitive statement in which they definitely said he didn't do what he was originally accused off. Which you know.
You can say why did it take them so long if they thought he was innocent, you could also say they took this long to ensure the stance they took was correct. Both would be guesses though.
Regarding your point all signs point to them wanting him back in the team but public pressure stopping them, not because they secretly think he's not innocent.
It's the "Yet you participate in society" meme. They want to appear clever, at the expense of showing any capacity for empathy or understanding.
What's naive? The whole Rico case is build on taped recorded conversation. Should we release them all on the basis that we didn't hear the whole story... it could have been role playing being mafia?
At what point would you admit that maybe... just maybe... Mason is a cnut. How hard is it to believe? Was that something to hard to believe considering his past misdemeanor in Sweden?
I believe in logic. If it walks talks acts and even recorded quaking you bet it's a duck.
I agree with that.
I also think if you've publicly said you didn't do something, you can't really be an example of "redemption" for the thing you said you didn't do.
It could be slightly more complicated than that.
If United's investigation includes them hearing the full audio, and this recording actually clears him/provides sufficient context for the part that was leaked, I personally find it improbable that they send him away just because of public pressure.
There are two plausible explanations, as far as I see it:
1) The full audio does clear him, but the club is also aware that the full context (of the entire case) can't be made public. Why? The answer is obvious: it might land someone else in legal trouble.
2) The full audio doesn't actually clear him/doesn't actually provide sufficient context.
Also: unless I'm mistaken, United (Arnold) have not said that they have heard the full audio. What they have said is that they are satisfied - based on the investigation - that Greenwood is not guilty of the original charge(s). What we know about the investigation is a) that United did not have full access to the evidence in the case and b) that they never interviewed the alleged victim (the only people we know they interviewed are Greenwood himself and a relative of the alleged victim).
To me, the above doesn't paint a picture where it's clear as day that United know all they need to know to be 100% sure that Greenwood hasn't done anything criminal *, but were pressured into doing what they did by figures in the media, public opinion, etc.
* Beyond violating his bail conditions, that is.
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