Martin Atkinson

Best - and by that I mean worst part was that Atkinson was literally laughing after one of the non-calls on the penalties. LVG should have been in the 4th years ear after the first one to at least try get something out of this spineless ref in our favor but, he still firmly believes that he can't influence games once they've started ....:wenger:
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Weirdly biased take.

There were two clear cut penalties he should have given in United's favour, and one red card in Chelsea's favour but that was right at the end of the game. The only decision that wouldn't have affected the result out of the three was the Chelsea due to the timing. The others would have resulted in goals for us.
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Biased yeah but I don't see anything wrong with what I've said. The Rooney challenge was the most clearcut decision and he got away with a yellow. Two clear cut penalties? You'd struggle to get any neutrals to agree with that assessment. The handball was possible, yes, but what was the other one? The Mata one wasn't a penalty and by no stretch of the imagination was it clear cut, you only had to see the players reaction to know that. Martial's was a dive. I'm really not seeing any reason United fans have to be particularly aggrieved at the ref. If either penalty was reversed and given in Chelsea's favour the reaction on here would have been mental.

kouroux said:
Wtf does having no players around Willian should matter anyway? I only see opposition fans come up with this bs.
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It's not bullshit. If Willian does that same movement when there is a United player closing him down then it changes the situation completely, he's stopping the opposition from gaining an advantage and in the ref/linesman's mind it's going to be a lot harder to believe he did it accidentally. As it was, it hit his hand with no one even near to him, thus it was easier for the ref to accept it as an accident and not make a decision.
 
BobbyManc said:
Biased yeah but I don't see anything wrong with what I've said. The Rooney challenge was the most clearcut decision and he got away with a yellow. Two clear cut penalties? You'd struggle to get any neutrals to agree with that assessment. The handball was possible, yes, but what was the other one? The Mata one wasn't a penalty and by no stretch of the imagination was it clear cut, you only had to see the players reaction to know that. Martial's was a dive. I'm really not seeing any reason United fans have to be particularly aggrieved at the ref. If either penalty was reversed and given in Chelsea's favour the reaction on here would have been mental.
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Not often I agree with a City fan, but you're not saying much wrong here. Ref was decent enough yesterday.
 
BobbyManc said:
Biased yeah but I don't see anything wrong with what I've said. The Rooney challenge was the most clearcut decision and he got away with a yellow. Two clear cut penalties? You'd struggle to get any neutrals to agree with that assessment. The handball was possible, yes, but what was the other one? The Mata one wasn't a penalty and by no stretch of the imagination was it clear cut, you only had to see the players reaction to know that. Martial's was a dive. I'm really not seeing any reason United fans have to be particularly aggrieved at the ref. If either penalty was reversed and given in Chelsea's favour the reaction on here would have been mental.



It's not bullshit. If Willian does that same movement when there is a United player closing him down then it changes the situation completely, he's stopping the opposition from gaining an advantage and in the ref/linesman's mind it's going to be a lot harder to believe he did it accidentally. As it was, it hit his hand with no one even near to him, thus it was easier for the ref to accept it as an accident and not make a decision.
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Absolute utterbulshit, how is the Mata one not a clear penalty? Mata gets to the ball first and then Azpillecueta is about 5 seconds late, if that is not a penalty then I am not sure what exactly is a penalty anymore. As for the Willian one I can see the logic of intentional and unintentional but the fact that there is no United player near Willian is completely irrelevant.
 
When they took Mata down was a pen and Willian was as clear as day. Scooping the ball to your advantage is a pen all day.. Terrible ref yesterday.. But he isnt to blame for us being uncapable of scoring a goal not to mention goals...
 
Atkinson hasn't given a single penalty or redcard this season and we are in game week 19. Surely it can't be that he is just by chance getting games with no incidents, it's kind of obvious that he has decided that he is not going to give anything and be on the safer side.
 
The only issues I had with the ref were:

1. Willians handball, if that had occurred outside the box he would have given a freekick. He proved that with other handballs during the game. Soft, but he should have been consistent.
2. Morgan's yellow, but nothing for Willian. Both went in with high foot, both hit each other, neither got the ball, yet Morgan got a booking.
3. Rooney should have had a straight red.

Other than that he was OK, played a lot of good advantage. I did hear the commentators talk about a two footed tackle from a Chelsea player on a United player, but did not see it and the camera's did not show it, so it probably was just a first reaction, rather than fact.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
Absolute utterbulshit, how is the Mata one not a clear penalty? Mata gets to the ball first and then Azpillecueta is about 5 seconds late, if that is not a penalty then I am not sure what exactly is a penalty anymore. As for the Willian one I can see the logic of intentional and unintentional but the fact that there is no United player near Willian is completely irrelevant.
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The United poster above you agrees with my views so I think you're letting your bias cloud your judgement too much. If the Mata one was a clear penalty, please explain why Ashley Young, the player nearest and with the best view, instinctively appealed for a corner? Do you think that suggests that Azpilicueta was "about 5 seconds late" or that he actually got a touch on the ball? At any rate, if your own player isn't even bothering to appeal for a penalty, it can't exactly have been clear-cut.

As I've already explained, the fact there were no United players near Willian is entirely relevant. The officials cannot tell if something is deliberate unless it is blatantly obvious, in Willian's case it was hard to call, thus you would have to consider the context of his handball. If there is no one around him and no danger and no advantage gained by handballing it, then logically one would assume it was accidental rather than deliberate, which is the only premise on which a handball is supposed to be called for. It's a completely different situation if a United player is closing him down and challenging for the ball because it becomes harder to presume the player's innocence.
 
BobbyManc said:
The United poster above you agrees with my views so I think you're letting your bias cloud your judgement too much. If the Mata one was a clear penalty, please explain why Ashley Young, the player nearest and with the best view, instinctively appealed for a corner? Do you think that suggests that Azpilicueta was "about 5 seconds late" or that he actually got a touch on the ball? At any rate, if your own player isn't even bothering to appeal for a penalty, it can't exactly have been clear-cut.

As I've already explained, the fact there were no United players near Willian is entirely relevant. The officials cannot tell if something is deliberate unless it is blatantly obvious, in Willian's case it was hard to call, thus you would have to consider the context of his handball. If there is no one around him and no danger and no advantage gained by handballing it, then logically one would assume it was accidental rather than deliberate, which is the only premise on which a handball is supposed to be called for. It's a completely different situation if a United player is closing him down and challenging for the ball because it becomes harder to presume the player's innocence.
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The bias is clearly with you in this case. You obviously watch a lot of football and week in and week out, most handballs given are not intentional - very few players actually raise their hand to stop the ball. Like when a handball is given when a player is on the ground and it strikes their arm, how many penalties have been given because of those? In Willian's case he actually moved his hand to the ball - the most clear case of the rules - for it be hand to ball and not ball to hand. That he used it to gain an advantage of controlling the ball in his favor. Imagine a keeper coming out to collect a ball with no players around him but, steps out of the box - is that not handball even though there isn't a single player? Obviously it is but, your bias has you reaching for arguments that make no sense.
 
Didn't think the Mata one was a pen, though I wasn't exactly watching in super clear HD!
The Rooney one had the force of a kid ripping a wet paper bag though, so agreed with yellow there too.

The Willian one could certainly have gone our way, he was waving his hand in the air, and used it to control the ball!

Schneiderline did stud him on the leg, but a lot would have given that as just a foul.

All in all, we can';t harp on about no pens as the reason we didn't win!
 
Didn't see the Mata situation, but Willian's handball and Rooney's challenge are about as easy as they come - 100% penalty and 100% red card for me.
 
BobbyManc said:
The United poster above you agrees with my views so I think you're letting your bias cloud your judgement too much. If the Mata one was a clear penalty, please explain why Ashley Young, the player nearest and with the best view, instinctively appealed for a corner? Do you think that suggests that Azpilicueta was "about 5 seconds late" or that he actually got a touch on the ball? At any rate, if your own player isn't even bothering to appeal for a penalty, it can't exactly have been clear-cut.

As I've already explained, the fact there were no United players near Willian is entirely relevant. The officials cannot tell if something is deliberate unless it is blatantly obvious, in Willian's case it was hard to call, thus you would have to consider the context of his handball. If there is no one around him and no danger and no advantage gained by handballing it, then logically one would assume it was accidental rather than deliberate, which is the only premise on which a handball is supposed to be called for. It's a completely different situation if a United player is closing him down and challenging for the ball because it becomes harder to presume the player's innocence.
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Rooney was very close too and he was appealing for a penalty, I am not sure what is the point of talking about bias because as a City fan you are just as likely to have a biased eye. I have just seen highlights with Jim Beglin in commentary, now he is a man who really doesn't like United but he was convinced it was a penalty. Mata clearly gets to the ball first and it is no different to all the times the keeper goes wide and the player knocks the ball away, if the keeper touches the player it is a penalty 99/100 times. You are just basing everything on Ashley Young's reaction even though there is not a single angle available which shows that Azpi touched the ball before or after he took out Mata.
Regarding the Willian one I am ok with it not being given even though Willian clearly moves his hand up rather than the ball just hitting his hand( Howard Webb btw did say on BT that it was a penalty). Handball is an incredibly vague rule and no one really seems to know what is going on most of the times.
 
Shimo said:
The bias is clearly with you in this case. You obviously watch a lot of football and week in and week out, most handballs given are not intentional - very few players actually raise their hand to stop the ball. Like when a handball is given when a player is on the ground and it strikes their arm, how many penalties have been given because of those? In Willian's case he actually moved his hand to the ball - the most clear case of the rules - for it be hand to ball and not ball to hand. That he used it to gain an advantage of controlling the ball in his favor. Imagine a keeper coming out to collect a ball with no players around him but, steps out of the box - is that not handball even though there isn't a single player? Obviously it is but, your bias has you reaching for arguments that make no sense.
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I'm not saying Willian's handball could not have been given. His hand controlled the ball so clearly it could have been. My argument is that it is not clear cut and given the context I think the ref was probably right to let it go. I'm only objecting with the people who are saying it was a definite penalty. The incidents you are referring to as well are handballs where they are gaining an advantage from the ball striking their arm, Willian did not gain any advantage because no one was close to him, if it didn't hit his hand he'd still have cleared the ball without fuss. At any rate it's pointless mentioning previous incidents involving handballs seen as the rules seems to be so inconsistently applied and there's all this talk of a 'natural position' among other aspects. We're all biased but I honestly believe the Willian decision was fair, and I do not see why people are so aggrieved, it's not as if it was the result of a strong United attack and he denied them a goal, it was literally a mistake (accidental or instinctive only Willian knows) under no pressure. Would have been very fortuitous to receive a penalty in such a circumstance.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
Rooney was very close too and he was appealing for a penalty, I am not sure what is the point of talking about bias because as a City fan you are just as likely to have a biased eye. I have just seen highlights with Jim Beglin in commentary, now he is a man who really doesn't like United but he was convinced it was a penalty. Mata clearly gets to the ball first and it is no different to all the times the keeper goes wide and the player knocks the ball away, if the keeper touches the player it is a penalty 99/100 times. You are just basing everything on Ashley Young's reaction even though there is not a single angle available which shows that Azpi touched the ball before or after he took out Mata.
Regarding the Willian one I am ok with it not being given even though Willian clearly moves his hand up rather than the ball just hitting his hand( Howard Webb btw did say on BT that it was a penalty). Handball is an incredibly vague rule and no one really seems to know what is going on most of the times.
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Interesting that you use Webb's judgement on the handball yet ignore he also analysed the Mata incident and ruled Azpilicueta got the ball. He also mentioned as it was hard to see what actually happened in real time the ref would have been unable to award a penalty given he could never have been sure of who got the ball first. Rooney appeals for anything, let's be honest :lol: I'm referring to Young because if he had a better view than the ref and appealed for a corner I fail to see how anyone could say it was a definite penalty, even if it was a penalty (which from the replays I saw I do not believe it was at all). That's my point, it's not strictly that they aren't penalties, it's the fans on here adamant they were denied two blatant penalties by an incompetent ref when that's simply not the case.
 
I think he was correct with the yellow for Rooney - it was a mistimed/lazy attempt to shield the ball (getting his leg between the ball and Oscar). It wasn't forceful enough to be reckless.

Haven't seen the Mata incident since getting home but it looked at least a corner.

William's handball looks instinctively deliberate on replays but I missed it at the time (from a bad angle though).
 
BobbyManc said:
As I've already explained, the fact there were no United players near Willian is entirely relevant. The officials cannot tell if something is deliberate unless it is blatantly obvious, in Willian's case it was hard to call, thus you would have to consider the context of his handball. If there is no one around him and no danger and no advantage gained by handballing it, then logically one would assume it was accidental rather than deliberate, which is the only premise on which a handball is supposed to be called for. It's a completely different situation if a United player is closing him down and challenging for the ball because it becomes harder to presume the player's innocence.
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We are very fortunate to have you in this forum, as the foremost expert on handball. You should replace howard webb on the tv, he thought it was a stone wall peno, but doesn't have as nuanced an appreciation of the law as you
 
BobbyManc said:
Interesting that you use Webb's judgement on the handball yet ignore he also analysed the Mata incident and ruled Azpilicueta got the ball. He also mentioned as it was hard to see what actually happened in real time the ref would have been unable to award a penalty given he could never have been sure of who got the ball first. Rooney appeals for anything, let's be honest :lol: I'm referring to Young because if he had a better view than the ref and appealed for a corner I fail to see how anyone could say it was a definite penalty, even if it was a penalty (which from the replays I saw I do not believe it was at all). That's my point, it's not strictly that they aren't penalties, it's the fans on here adamant they were denied two blatant penalties by an incompetent ref when that's simply not the case.
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I didn't watch the match on BT so I didn't know Webb's view on the Mata one, again I have still not seen a single angle where Azpi gets the ball and if he doesn't get the ball then I am not sure how that is not a penalty. Apart from the Ashley Young part you have still not given a single reason why it wasn't a penalty. The fact is that Atkinson is now working on the kind of stuff you are putting up here, when you don't make big decisions there are always a hundred excuses that can be made so it's always safer this way. People will probably think that he didn't have a great view or he was uncertain about it and stuff and let him off even though as a ref for a game this big you need to be able to make decisions. Do you really think it's a coincidence that he hasn't given a single penalty or red this season?
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We are very fortunate to have you in this forum, as the foremost expert on handball. You should replace howard webb on the tv, he thought it was a stone wall peno, but doesn't have as nuanced an appreciation of the law as you
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Howard Webb was commenting after seeing replays where it is much easier to judge whether it was deliberate or not. My argument is entirely from the point of views of the officials during the game in real-time. As Webb points out, Atkinson had turned his head so did not have a clear view. How you expected him to be certain that it was a deliberate handball is beyond me and is why I have stressed the context was likely important in his decision making.

Ayush_reddevil said:
I didn't watch the match on BT so I didn't know Webb's view on the Mata one, again I have still not seen a single angle where Azpi gets the ball and if he doesn't get the ball then I am not sure how that is not a penalty. Apart from the Ashley Young part you have still not given a single reason why it wasn't a penalty. The fact is that Atkinson is now working on the kind of stuff you are putting up here, when you don't make big decisions there are always a hundred excuses that can be made so it's always safer this way. People will probably think that he didn't have a great view or he was uncertain about it and stuff and let him off even though as a ref for a game this big you need to be able to make decisions. Do you really think it's a coincidence that he hasn't given a single penalty or red this season?
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Yes I have, because Azpilicueta got the ball, which is exactly why Young didn't appeal.



There's a replay here which shows Azpilicueta getting the ball and Webb's reasoning as to why it could not have been given.
 
The Mata/Azpil incident is an odd one. By giving the goal kick, Atkinson is admitting that he thinks Azpil didn't get the ball, but whatever reason he also didn't think it was a foul either. It's one of those that I think would have been given anywhere else on the pitch, but not in the 18 yard box. Surely if he thinks Azpil gets the ball, then it's a corner. As Webb points out, different angles make it look like both players won the ball. In real time, I thought it was a certain penalty.

The handball is nailed on for me though. It looks clear to me that Willian knows he has miscontrolled the ball and has instinctively used his arm to gain control of it. Doesn't matter if anyone is around him. By the speed in which he hoofs it away, he obviously doesn't know if anyone is near him and he is snuffing out the danger. Young isn't that far away either, so if he sees Willian struggling to control it, he's going to press. It's a very deliberate looking handball and in the penalty area. Not sure how both Atkinson and the linesman on the far side didn't see/give it.

Rooney should have seen red as well. Again, Atkinson is against us. Lol Rooney's shit etc etc.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
The Mata/Azpil incident is an odd one. By giving the goal kick, Atkinson is admitting that he thinks Azpil didn't get the ball, but whatever reason he also didn't think it was a foul either. It's one of those that I think would have been given anywhere else on the pitch, but not in the 18 yard box. Surely if he thinks Azpil gets the ball, then it's a corner. As Webb points out, different angles make it look like both players won the ball. In real time, I thought it was a certain penalty.

The handball is nailed on for me though. It looks clear to me that Willian knows he has miscontrolled the ball and has instinctively used his arm to gain control of it. Doesn't matter if anyone is around him. By the speed in which he hoofs it away, he obviously doesn't know if anyone is near him and he is snuffing out the danger. Young isn't that far away either, so if he sees Willian struggling to control it, he's going to press. It's a very deliberate looking handball and in the penalty area. Not sure how both Atkinson and the linesman on the far side didn't see/give it.

Rooney should have seen red as well. Again, Atkinson is against us. Lol Rooney's shit etc etc.
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The Rooney one is funny really because Atkinson is very close and has no one between him and the players involved. Rooney doesn't even try to go for the ball and just tackles in a completely different direction but somehow Atkinson gives him a yellow. Not sure how he could see that and decide it was a yellow. If he had taken no action then Rooney would have 100% got a retrospective three match ban, Atkinson though would just didn't want to make a big call.
 
Didn't give us 2 penalties and didn't send off Rooney. Atkinson's made 3 decisions against us. :lol:
 
BobbyManc said:
Howard Webb was commenting after seeing replays where it is much easier to judge whether it was deliberate or not. My argument is entirely from the point of views of the officials during the game in real-time. As Webb points out, Atkinson had turned his head so did not have a clear view. How you expected him to be certain that it was a deliberate handball is beyond me and is why I have stressed the context was likely important in his decision making.
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Gotya. Lots of decisions are hard for refs tho, doesn't make a bad one any less painful when you are desperate for a goal :(
 
He's just a smarmy cockroach that takes glee in not giving any decisions. He always wants to be the main star of the show.

Shite performance from him yesterday, had dodgy decisions both ways.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
The Rooney one is funny really because Atkinson is very close and has no one between him and the players involved. Rooney doesn't even try to go for the ball and just tackles in a completely different direction but somehow Atkinson gives him a yellow. Not sure how he could see that and decide it was a yellow. If he had taken no action then Rooney would have 100% got a retrospective three match ban, Atkinson though would just didn't want to make a big call.
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It reminded me of the Downing red card last season. He's realised his opposite number is getting the ball first, so he's taking him down. One part frustration, and the other part laziness. And in both cases, he didn't just go for a standard cynical clip of the ankles. The Downing one was a high kick, almost right up the arse. Yesterday, it was a studs on the leg. Rooney is an idiot. A fortunate idiot.
 
verminater said:
Webb says that the handball is a pen, but you still think your cock and bull explanation is valid? @BobbyManc
Then he says the Mata one wasn't, and it is the gospel according to JHoward Webb.
Are you trolling?
Don't end up a statistic Bobby.
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Webb did not say it was a blatant penalty as many on here have suggested it was. He's saying that on the replays it looks intentional and thus should have been given, that's his verdict. Note the replays involved a close-up look of the incident and at Willian's face plus the specific movement, all of which the officials did not have. My 'cock and bull explanation' is not to argue it was not at all a penalty, my explanation is to justify why the officials did not award the penalty, and that the moaning on here that he denied two blatant penalties is false. I believe the officials, without the aid of replays, were right to not give a penalty and give Willian the benefit of the doubt given the context.

I also don't recall bringing up Webb myself, it was another poster who brought his views up, I stated my original views on the Mata incident without referencing whatever Webb said.
 
He's a terrible referee, easily one of the worst in the league... And yet, he's one of our representatives at the Euro's? What bollocks.
 
Yep, I absolutely hate seeing him referee a match. My memory bank contains a large catalogue of his shocking refereeing over the past decade - especially our matches at Stamford Bridge. That non decision tonight in allowing City to get a decisive goal, when the ball was clearly out, turned the tie round. Another shocking huge call made.
 
He's from yorkshire so of course he hates us. Read on twitter over the years some talk from leeds fans that he's a leeds fan himself. feck off.
 
He's crap but he got all four of the penalty shouts correct. Their free kick was soft but you see them given all the time.
 
I have no idea how he's allowed to ref our games.

The worse was when he completely fecking robbed us at the bridge and then somehow got given out next game against them where him and his shit fecking team proceeded to allow Drogba to score when he was 624 yards offside.
 
Will be interesting to see how he explains that Payet was still on the pitch. This is just so wrong - it stinks!
 
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