[Bwuk]

I don't think he's god's gift but this is over the top. We had worse players in the squad when we won our last 2 UCLs. Hell Barcelona had Seydou Keita in the squad both times they schooled us in the UCL, he even played against us in the final in 2009. Not a bad player by any means but in terms of talent and impact he was no better than Fellaini. A well over the hill Guðjohnsen was also in the squad that night and played 34 games for Barcelona that season (scoring 4 goals). Fellaini's contribution this season has far outweighed that, he's comfortably good enough and useful enough to warrant a squad place. That's all the vast majority of the people defending him are saying, very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.

When we got to the final both times none of our regular midfield options were as poor technically as Fellaini. Gudjohnson was streets ahead of Fellaini at passing the ball and playing the way Barca did. And Keita was great, he would of been a starter for most other sides in Europe.

Chelsea.

Stupid post.

Chelsea? Ahead of who? Mourinho wouldn't have someone that poor on the ball regularly start. He could maybe take Mikels place on the bench, but no danger is he a regular starter.

Stupid post.

 

[Walrus]

Don't get the motive behind some of the posts. Instead of promoting actual debate, you get posts like - "dagger even more in the hearts of his detractors.", "I hope he stays and does well just to piss off the haters' etc.

Forums are supposed to promote the culture of exchanging opinions right ? To be fair - this applies to both sides of the argument (seemingly pro or anti) - but since I can only speak for myself, there is no innuendo against certain players for the most part. But one does get the impression that a lot of times, genuine criticism is often dismissed without realizing that we're United fans too, and support the club's best interest in our own way. Supporting the club doesn't just extend to aligning with certain players, being antagonistic or calling the detractors bullshit myth merchants and the like, and giving self-congratulatory pats, mostly because they don't admire a couple of the players in our squad.

For those arguing that we had sucky players in the past. Is that what we should be aiming for ideally ? Players who are almost as bad as some of our worst players when we won the European Cups. Isn't squad building about continual improvement year in and year out ? Also working on his weaknesses in the off-season ? His technical shortcoming are incredibly deep rooted, and for a player like that, you will have to essentially strip him down to the basics, overhaul his playing style and rewire him completely to transform him into a more cultured version of himself. Let's be honest, he is who he is (some prefer it, some don't - to each his/ her own), and it ain't gonna change. You can reprogram a youth team player or even someone fresh to first team football, and even that takes substantial effort from both the player and coach's end. But you just can't do that with a grown ass man of almost 28, who is supposed to be at his peak in terms of performances and is set in his ways.

The argument that he won't fit into most top European clubs isn't just a qualitative one, but has more to do with a stylistic match. The fact remains that no Top 5 European club launches balls to their #10/ midfield player, or have a player in that position who's similar to him in terms of playing style and qualities. Most of them are inventive, with great passing range, and can control the momentum of matches. You could put Herrera in Madrid or Bayern or Barcelona's team for Isco or Schweinsteiger or Rakitic, and he won't look out of place in the slightest. Could one honestly say that about our favorite Belgian ? And that technical, progressive football approach is the template we should be looking at, instead of forcing ill-suited players into a 4-3-3 possession based system whose effectiveness nosedives when the aerial supply is cut off. For those who argue that Van Gaal knows better and the critics of Fellaini are mentalists who can't chat sense, let's also bear in mind that a lot of the manager's decisions have been strange, to put it mildly.

Also, some of the points to validate his continued presence are really ill-informed. In terms of talent and impact, Keita was no better than Fellaini ? Is this real life ? He was several notches above Fellaini from a technical and footballing standpoint, which made him suited to a possession based system. This is someone who was one of the the best players in the 1999 U-20 World Cup which had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Cambiasso, and was rated the best talent in Africa. Was one of the best defensive midfielders around in the mid 2000s, had almost 50 European appearances before signing for Barcelona, was one of the best midfielders in La Liga for a Sevilla team that beat Madrid twice, including 6-3 in the Supercopa, beat Arsenal in the Champions League, were reigning Copa and UEFA Cup winners. And he was easily their best player behind a certain Dani Alves.

I think you are being a bit one sided in your first two paragraphs here Invictus - as you say, this applies (or should apply) to both sides of the argument. I have been trying to engage in reasoned and objective discussion on here for months with very little success. I am just as tired of repeating the same old arguments as everyone else probably is of reading them - but nobody seems willing or able to respond in any objective sense.
All I tend to see is "Fellaini is a donkey, he is the most technically limited player to ever set foot on a football pitch and cant do anything but elbow people and head in crosses." This is obviously not factually correct or objective in any way. I have never dismissed or complained about what I see as genuine criticism. Perhaps your comments in that paragraph are not aimed at me particularly, but nonetheless I feel the exact same way about the anti-Fellaini crowd.

I have laid out my arguments time and time again in this thread, and I invite you (or anyone else) to respond to them. Rather than dig up an old post, I will summise them here;

• Fellaini offers a unique option for us which other players in his role do not. This in itself is a valuable asset that a shrewd manager can take advantage of, tactically.
• Fellaini is a constant threat on attacking and defending set pieces, moreso than almost any other outfield player.
• And this is an important one - having Fellaini on the pitch forces opponents to change the way they defend. We saw last year that teams were happy to simply show us down the flanks and defend the central areas, in the knowledge that we could swing in crosses all day long and they would clear them. Having a genuine aerial threat changes this, and our best performances this season have been examples of this. Opponents were forced to defend the wide areas, which created space in other areas of the pitch for our other attacking players to exploit. In our best games we attacked both from wide areas and central ones, and Fellaini's role was integral in this.
• Fellaini's technical ability and passing is average, and not half as bad as some on here are making out. We have seen over the course of the season several key passes and involvement from Fellaini in linkup play. I find the criticisms of his passing to be odd because a) he isnt in the team to be our playmaker, and b) he tends to play in a very advanced role high up the pitch, so of course he will have more backwards passes.
• Fellaini has shown fantastic mental strength and attitude to play his way into the first XI this season after nearly being sold and being booed by our own fans in preseason. We need strong characters like this in the team, we have seen what can happen to mentally fragile players in the PL.
• Related to the previous point, Fellaini never hides on the pitch. Even if he or the team is playing poorly, he will still show for the ball and contribute to the game when we have seen other players simply go missing altogether.
• Final point on mentality, Fellaini is a big-game player. He was our MotM in the first game against Chelsea (and this was in the DM role that his critics claim he cannot play, marking Fabregas off the pitch), and one of the best against City and Arsenal in the first half of the season to name but a few. Fellaini's best games have normally come against the big clubs (based on this, I find it strange that people assume that he would be useless in the CL.)
• Fellaini is a good target for long balls which helps us to retain possession in situations where we need to play it long. It also gives us a backup plan if we are chasing the game, to play it long to Fellaini.
• Fellaini has been one of our better outfield players this season and has been the player that opponents (such as Chelsea) have marked out and specifically set out to counter. Our best form in the first half of the season coincided almost perfectly with Fellaini's run in the team, and he has been integral in most of our best performances.
• Fellaini receives a disproportionate amount of criticism and abuse relative to his performances and other players.

As I said, this is just a summary of some of things I have been saying for months in this thread. I may have missed some things, but the above should be sufficient for now.

I am not going to debate the Fellaini/Keita comparison that has developed, because I see it as a bit pointless. Not least because Fellaini is a pretty unique player in what he offers, and hence making valid comparisons to other players in any sort of detail can be quite tricky. Also I didnt watch enough of Keita at Barcelona to really have an informed opinion.

Thank you for taking the time to construct a reasoned post.

 

[Ringo 07]

He's so dangerous with crosses and set pieces that he is a good option to have come off the bench for the last 10 minutes of a game. We paid 15 million too much for him and we didn't need him but such was the dross we had in our forward line this year that he actually was an integral part of our team this year....I can't see him being in the team next season but he'd be very useful in away games to Stoke and West Brom next season when you need a nut-job or two to stand up to their physicality

 

[adexkola]

Don't get the motive behind some of the posts. Instead of promoting actual debate, you get posts like - "dagger even more in the hearts of his detractors.", "I hope he stays and does well just to piss off the haters' etc.

Forums are supposed to promote the culture of exchanging opinions right ? To be fair - this applies to both sides of the argument (seemingly pro or anti) - but since I can only speak for myself, there is no innuendo against certain players for the most part. But one does get the impression that a lot of times, genuine criticism is often dismissed without realizing that we're United fans too, and support the club's best interest in our own way. Supporting the club doesn't just extend to aligning with certain players, being antagonistic or calling the detractors bullshit myth merchants and the like, and giving self-congratulatory pats, mostly because they don't admire a couple of the players in our squad.

The "dagger in the heart" comment was aimed at those who are actually upset that Fellaini managed to turn his fortunes around at the club. For that I make no apologies; I expect United fans to get behind the club and support the players who wear the shirt. Of course we all want the club to improve the squad but when that criteria is applied arbitrarily to certain scapegoats (cf Fellaini, Young) then the hypocrisy shines through.

For those arguing that we had sucky players in the past. Is that what we should be aiming for ideally ? Players who are almost as bad as some of our worst players when we won the European Cups. Isn't squad building about continual improvement year in and year out ? Also working on his weaknesses in the off-season ? His technical shortcoming are incredibly deep rooted, and for a player like that, you will have to essentially strip him down to the basics, overhaul his playing style and rewire him completely to transform him into a more cultured version of himself. Let's be honest, he is who he is (some prefer it, some don't - to each his/ her own), and it ain't gonna change. You can reprogram a youth team player or even someone fresh to first team football, and even that takes substantial effort from both the player and coach's end. But you just can't do that with a grown ass man of almost 28, who is supposed to be at his peak in terms of performances and is set in his ways.

We should be aiming for a world class team. A world class team doesn't necessarily mean we have world class players at every position within our starting 11. I know for a fact that the top teams of Europe today and yesteryear don't fulfill that criteria. He had a good season, better than most of our players, so "technical weaknesses" aside, I don't see a reason why he won't be included in preliminary discussions regarding where we plan to be in 5 years. If he can't make the necessary adjustments, someone else will take his place. But he has earned the right, more than most players we have, to fight for a spot in our long term plans.

And players have reinvented themselves throughout history. Scholes and Giggs managed to do it for us. Xavi burst into prominence at 28. No I'm not suggesting... FFS. I'm just saying, saying he is set in his ways is not a given. I expect LVG to sit down with him and say, "Fellaini, you had a good season. Here is how you can improve. Are you up to it?" Let's see if he steps up. Why wouldn't I want that to happen?

The argument that he won't fit into most top European clubs isn't just a qualitative one, but has more to do with a stylistic match. The fact remains that no Top 5 European club launches balls to their #10/ midfield player, or have a player in that position who's similar to him in terms of playing style and qualities. Most of them are inventive, with great passing range, and can control the momentum of matches. You could put Herrera in Madrid or Bayern or Barcelona's team for Isco or Schweinsteiger or Rakitic, and he won't look out of place in the slightest. Could one honestly say that about our favorite Belgian ? And that technical, progressive football approach is the template we should be looking at, instead of forcing ill-suited players into a 4-3-3 possession based system whose effectiveness nosedives when the aerial supply is cut off. For those who argue that Van Gaal knows better and the critics of Fellaini are mentalists who can't chat sense, let's also bear in mind that a lot of the manager's decisions have been strange, to put it mildly.

Meh, feck stylistics. We had one of our best spells of football with Fellaini in the team, being very prominent. There's no question about his ability to aid the sexiness of the team when played properly.

Also, you overrate Herrara if you think he can slot into Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, or Barcelona without being noticed (for bad). He has not displayed enough for us to indicate he can function in the best midfields of the world. Carrick was the better midfielder this season, and if I made that comment now or 5 years ago (when Carrick was the better player) I would be laughed out of the room.

Also, some of the points to validate his continued presence are really ill-informed. In terms of talent and impact, Keita was no better than Fellaini ? Is this real life ? He was several notches above Fellaini from a technical and footballing standpoint, which made him suited to a possession based system. This is someone who was one of the the best players in the 1999 U-20 World Cup which had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Cambiasso, and was rated the best talent in Africa. Was one of the best defensive midfielders around in the mid 2000s, had almost 50 European appearances before signing for Barcelona, was one of the best midfielders in La Liga for a Sevilla team that beat Madrid twice, including 6-3 in the Supercopa, beat Arsenal in the Champions League, were reigning Copa and UEFA Cup winners. And he was easily their best player behind a certain Dani Alves.

You overrate Keita also. A lot of players have shined in U-20 World Cups. He was not one of the best defensive midfielders in the mid 2000s when Makelele, Redondo et al were still playing, he was in the lower tier at the very most. The Madrid team that Sevilla beat was that era's version of Arsenal; unable to make it past the group stage in Europe. I dispute that he was the best player behind Alves, Kanoute was excellent for that side as well. I think he was a very good player at Sevilla who was able to fill in gaps in Barcelona's team.

Fellaini, contrary to some posts to this thread, is not an obstacle standing between us and free flowing football. That assumption is ridiculous. And if we're that adamant on pruning the squad for quality purposes, based on the fact that players won't get into other top squads in Europe, then pray tell, how many players do we have that'll get into the top squads in Europe? Let's see... on current form, DDG... ok I'm struggling. Luckily great teams aren't built that way. And they're definitely not built by targeting top performers from the last season based on aesthetic criteria!

 

[Invictus]

We should be aiming for a world class team. A world class team doesn't necessarily mean we have world class players at every position within our starting 11. I know for a fact that the top teams of Europe today and yesteryear don't fulfill that criteria. He had a good season, better than most of our players, so "technical weaknesses" aside, I don't see a reason why he won't be included in preliminary discussions regarding where we plan to be in 5 years. If he can't make the necessary adjustments, someone else will take his place. But he has earned the right, more than most players we have, to fight for a spot in our long term plans.

And players have reinvented themselves throughout history. Scholes and Giggs managed to do it for us. Xavi burst into prominence at 28. No I'm not suggesting... FFS. I'm just saying, saying he is set in his ways is not a given. I expect LVG to sit down with him and say, "Fellaini, you had a good season. Here is how you can improve. Are you up to it?" Let's see if he steps up. Why wouldn't I want that to happen?

Please don't exaggerate what I said. Did I say we need world class players at every position ? Also contrary to popular wisdom - as things stands, there has been a talent accumulation war that's been raging on for a few years now at the highest level of the sport, and there's been a sea change at that level of of European football in the past 5 years or so, with a lot of the older impressions becoming outdated. If you look at teams that have consistently contended for the European title every single year (not flash in the pan teams like Dortmund, Atletico, Juventus that didn't sustain a level of success), and have reached the semi-finals or beyond 4-5 times in the last half decade, they are absolutely stacked with top notch quality throughout the starting XI, or have an attack so outrageously brilliant that they can win even with sub-world class backlines.

As these teams have progressed, at full strength, one would be hard pressed to find a lot of players who aren't either world class, or potentially world class, or just a notch below world class. There are only so many basic players a top echelon team carries these days. eg. In Bayern Munich's ideal starting XI (not factoring in injuries), how many above average players (ones similar in terms of quality to Fellaini) can you actually name ? That is the kind of competition we're facing if the club has genuine aspirations for challenging regularly, and maybe winning another European Cup in the near future. Our historical European rivals are widening the talent gap every year, so being of the mindset that simply being better than some of our under-performing players is good enough for a player, or that we owe him something is essentially a romantic notion that will hinder the club from fulfilling its potential.

And bollocks to the Scholes/ Giggs comparison honestly. These are two of the most extreme examples anyone could every bring up as a United supporter, almost bordering on offensive status. These were two of the most intelligent, technically gifted, decorated players, consistently world class players to grace the club. And even they didn't overhaul their games. The technique was always there, just needed tweaking as they adjusted to a new position. Another one in Xavi. He didn't burst onto the scene at 28. He had been borderline elite since age 23, and definitely world class since age 25. Again extreme examples, one of the greatest players ever. Fellaini stepping up is still not good enough, because he's just not that great potentially, the raw material just isn't there and the weaknesses are too glaring.

Meh, feck stylistics. We had one of our best spells of football with Fellaini in the team, being very prominent. There's no question about his ability to aid the sexiness of the team when played properly.

Also, you overrate Herrara if you think he can slot into Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, or Barcelona without being noticed (for bad). He has not displayed enough for us to indicate he can function in the best midfields of the world. Carrick was the better midfielder this season, and if I made that comment now or 5 years ago (when Carrick was the better player) I would be laughed out of the room.

No, you don't feck the stylistics. Visual appeal is a big deal for people who watch the sport as a form of recreation. There are definite questions about his ability to aid the sexiness. Put a half decent physical marker on him, and the man can't contribute enough to the game from an offensive/ creative standpoint, even though he plays in a pseudo #10 position.

And no, Herrera is not being overrated here. He has displayed enough in his career with Zaragoza and Athletic Club, and with the Spanish U teams to form that opinion. This is someone who was one of the best attacking midfielders in La Liga last season, and showed brilliants quality while playing alongside Thiago and Javi and Mata at the international level. He would fit seamlessly into any of those clubs. Barcelona were even interested in signing him back in 2013 : http://www.insidespanishfootball.com/58016/barcelona-eyeing-athletic-bilbaos-ander-herrera/

You overrate Keita also. A lot of players have shined in U-20 World Cups. He was not one of the best defensive midfielders in the mid 2000s when Makelele, Redondo et al were still playing, he was in the lower tier at the very most. The Madrid team that Sevilla beat was that era's version of Arsenal; unable to make it past the group stage in Europe. I dispute that he was the best player behind Alves, Kanoute was excellent for that side as well. I think he was a very good player at Sevilla who was able to fill in gaps in Barcelona's team.

Fellaini, contrary to some posts to this thread, is not an obstacle standing between us and free flowing football. That assumption is ridiculous. And if we're that adamant on pruning the squad for quality purposes, based on the fact that players won't get into other top squads in Europe, then pray tell, how many players do we have that'll get into the top squads in Europe? Let's see... on current form, DDG... ok I'm struggling. Luckily great teams aren't built that way. And they're definitely not built by targeting top performers from the last season based on aesthetic criteria!

Definitely not overrating Keita, he was among the best talents at his position. As for Redondo, he declined after leaving Real in 2000 and played like 10 matches for Milan before retiring. The mid 2000s was definitely not his era. Playing 40+ games every season for the best club team of the modern era wasn't filling the gaps, he was an integral part of the first 12-13 including immediate subs and relief. Honestly, can even the most disillusioned Fellaini supporter say that he would've been targeted by Pep's Guardiola or brought on as a viable sub for Busquets or Xavi on a more than regular basis ? And that Madrid team was still full of quality, won the Liga, and beat Barcelona 5-1 on aggregate in the league.

As for the rest, I'll just say this - substandard quality is still substandard quality in the grand scheme of things, even if there's yet more substandard quality around it. Just because we have other scrubs doesn't mean he's a good enough player for United. And yeah, luckily great teams are built by retaining average plonkers and pushing the idea of them being viable starters... Have we learnt nothing from the squad's decline in the past few seasons where only Fergie's presence was holding the team tearing itself apart at the teams and filled to the brim with players who wouldn't have made into some of our great teams of the past.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Let's accept we got rinsed and cut our loses. The guy can't play, it really is that simple. Unless if we have ambitions of playing long balls to him and that's useless too as he doesn't have attackers instincts. Just get rid.

 

[adexkola]

@Invictus I'm on my phone so I can't give a detailed reply, but I've seen enough disparities between Football Manager lineups and summer transfers on here over the years to know that muppet overhauls are a pipe dream. I'll be shocked if Fellaini is a target given his past season, unless stupid money is offered for him and he wants to leave.

 

[Man of Leisure]

I think you are being a bit one sided in your first two paragraphs here Invictus - as you say, this applies (or should apply) to both sides of the argument. I have been trying to engage in reasoned and objective discussion on here for months with very little success. I am just as tired of repeating the same old arguments as everyone else probably is of reading them - but nobody seems willing or able to respond in any objective sense.
All I tend to see is "Fellaini is a donkey, he is the most technically limited player to ever set foot on a football pitch and cant do anything but elbow people and head in crosses." This is obviously not factually correct or objective in any way. I have never dismissed or complained about what I see as genuine criticism. Perhaps your comments in that paragraph are not aimed at me particularly, but nonetheless I feel the exact same way about the anti-Fellaini crowd.

I have laid out my arguments time and time again in this thread, and I invite you (or anyone else) to respond to them. Rather than dig up an old post, I will summise them here;

• Fellaini offers a unique option for us which other players in his role do not. This in itself is a valuable asset that a shrewd manager can take advantage of, tactically.
• Fellaini is a constant threat on attacking and defending set pieces, moreso than almost any other outfield player.
• And this is an important one - having Fellaini on the pitch forces opponents to change the way they defend. We saw last year that teams were happy to simply show us down the flanks and defend the central areas, in the knowledge that we could swing in crosses all day long and they would clear them. Having a genuine aerial threat changes this, and our best performances this season have been examples of this. Opponents were forced to defend the wide areas, which created space in other areas of the pitch for our other attacking players to exploit. In our best games we attacked both from wide areas and central ones, and Fellaini's role was integral in this.
• Fellaini's technical ability and passing is average, and not half as bad as some on here are making out. We have seen over the course of the season several key passes and involvement from Fellaini in linkup play. I find the criticisms of his passing to be odd because a) he isnt in the team to be our playmaker, and b) he tends to play in a very advanced role high up the pitch, so of course he will have more backwards passes.
• Fellaini has shown fantastic mental strength and attitude to play his way into the first XI this season after nearly being sold and being booed by our own fans in preseason. We need strong characters like this in the team, we have seen what can happen to mentally fragile players in the PL.
• Related to the previous point, Fellaini never hides on the pitch. Even if he or the team is playing poorly, he will still show for the ball and contribute to the game when we have seen other players simply go missing altogether.
• Final point on mentality, Fellaini is a big-game player. He was our MotM in the first game against Chelsea (and this was in the DM role that his critics claim he cannot play, marking Fabregas off the pitch), and one of the best against City and Arsenal in the first half of the season to name but a few. Fellaini's best games have normally come against the big clubs (based on this, I find it strange that people assume that he would be useless in the CL.)
• Fellaini is a good target for long balls which helps us to retain possession in situations where we need to play it long. It also gives us a backup plan if we are chasing the game, to play it long to Fellaini.
• Fellaini has been one of our better outfield players this season and has been the player that opponents (such as Chelsea) have marked out and specifically set out to counter. Our best form in the first half of the season coincided almost perfectly with Fellaini's run in the team, and he has been integral in most of our best performances.
• Fellaini receives a disproportionate amount of criticism and abuse relative to his performances and other players.

As I said, this is just a summary of some of things I have been saying for months in this thread. I may have missed some things, but the above should be sufficient for now.

I am not going to debate the Fellaini/Keita comparison that has developed, because I see it as a bit pointless. Not least because Fellaini is a pretty unique player in what he offers, and hence making valid comparisons to other players in any sort of detail can be quite tricky. Also I didnt watch enough of Keita at Barcelona to really have an informed opinion.

Thank you for taking the time to construct a reasoned post.

Your tagline should say "Oppressive White Male"

 

[Invictus]

@Invictus I'm on my phone so I can't give a detailed reply, but I've seen enough disparities between Football Manager lineups and summer transfers on here over the years to know that muppet overhauls are a pipe dream. I'll be shocked if Fellaini is a target given his past season, unless stupid money is offered for him and he wants to leave.

Fair enough.

And you're most probably right. Overhauling the team in one summer might not be realistic, or advisable. We might be better served having a more organic transition, and churning the squad players at a slower rate. And for what it's worth, IMO some of us will just have to agree to disagree, purely because of the cyclical nature of most arguments in the thread - a consensus might well be impossible. Ultimately, it's just down to subjective opinions, and individual preferences for what United's ambitions, or playing style should be like in the short-medium-long term. There might actually be no right or wrong perspective here. I mean, what do I know ? He might well be important to our potential success next season with some late winners.

Tagging the same to @Walrus who's been defensing him in whirlwind style™.

 

[Walrus]

@Invictus I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the points I set out in my previous post, regarding what Fellaini brings to the team etc. Your argument seems to revolve around very rigid concepts of what a player of a particular position must do, what their strengths and weaknesses are etc, whereas I on the other hand think that at the very least, Fellaini should be kept in the squad because he provides unique options and threats which will not typically be available to other teams.

I agree that there is no common consensus - and there have been plenty of objective anti-Fellaini posts in here which I do not reply to because they at least represent reasoned and objective criticism. The thing that irks me is effectively the same as what you described in your post last night (I think) - which is when objectivity goes out of the window and people portray extremely biased, exaggerated opinions as though they are fact.

 

[NoPace]

What's to argue?

Fellaini is a useful change of pace who is not good enough to be a starter for a team at the highest level of European football.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

What's to argue?

Fellaini is a useful change of pace who is not good enough to be a starter for a team at the highest level of European football.

I agree with this.

I've gone from wanting rid of him to thinking that he's a decent backup and a good plan B if we need something a little different. If we want to be winning the title or the Champions League though we aren't going to be successful with Fellaini starting every week.

 

[sullydnl]

What's to argue?

Fellaini is a useful change of pace who is not good enough to be a starter for a team at the highest level of European football.

This.

Fellaini is (and always has been) good enough to be a squad player here. No more, no less.

His style of play also lends itself to that role as he doesn't fit with what we might want to see from our Plan A but is different (and effective) enough to be a worthwhile Plan B.

Buying new midfielders and moving Fellaini into a squad role is very obviously the smart and fair thing to do at this point, as it probably was ever since we signed him. Weird that the debate is still going on really...

 

[NoPace]

I agree with this.

I've gone from wanting rid of him to thinking that he's a decent backup and a good plan B if we need something a little different. If we want to be winning the title or the Champions League though we aren't going to be successful with Fellaini starting every week.

I'd rather just see Mata or Di Maria central more, but it seems like Van Gaal wants to play 4-5-1 and win the league by beating everyone 1-0 with 70% possession, so Fellaini should be a good backup for Herrera and the new CM we need to sign this summer.

 

[montpelier]

Just as an aside of a question. If his best (only) position is AM #10 getting forward to hang about on the back post or for long diagonals out of defence/deep MF. Why isn't he a centre forward? (think I do know the answer to this, tbh)

Which reminds me, that in the poll, I forgot to nominate his cameo up top, supported by leading English League strikers of their generation, RVP & Rooney, as weirdest moment of the season.

 

[Invictus]

@Invictus I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the points I set out in my previous post, regarding what Fellaini brings to the team etc. Your argument seems to revolve around very rigid concepts of what a player of a particular position must do, what their strengths and weaknesses are etc, whereas I on the other hand think that at the very least, Fellaini should be kept in the squad because he provides unique options and threats which will not typically be available to other teams.

Ok.

Fellaini offers a unique option for us which other players in his role do not. This in itself is a valuable asset that a shrewd manager can take advantage of, tactically.

Personally, not a big fan of super-unique options just for the sake of variety. And even if one values uniqueness, he is mostly unique in terms or his height and ability to accurately chest the ball as a late sub, I think we can agree to that to a certain extent. My main problem with that is the level of effectiveness he provides. If we want someone who can be the weapon-X when we are chasing games, can't we aim for someone who's more clinical in effect ? Someone like say Llorente who's a cultured attacker used to playing with his backs to the wall and consistently scoring goals ? Wouldn't that be a more appropriate aerial Plan B ?

Fellaini is a constant threat on attacking and defending set pieces, moreso than almost any other outfield player.

Can't really disagree with this. That said, should be place a lot of importance on midfielders being a big factor on set pieces. It's a very small fraction of what we should prioritize in footballers from an overall skill perspective, not a big part of their appeal.

And this is an important one - having Fellaini on the pitch forces opponents to change the way they defend. We saw last year that teams were happy to simply show us down the flanks and defend the central areas, in the knowledge that we could swing in crosses all day long and they would clear them. Having a genuine aerial threat changes this, and our best performances this season have been examples of this. Opponents were forced to defend the wide areas, which created space in other areas of the pitch for our other attacking players to exploit. In our best games we attacked both from wide areas and central ones, and Fellaini's role was integral in this.

I do think this particular element is being overrated, because synchronized movement is way more effective if terms of opening up spaces or channels. If it was such a big advantage or a genius tactic, why aren't other teams putting 6'4" dudes upfront and pumping balls long ? Why didn't Jan Koller play for an elite sides consistently ? Why didn't Carew ? People are becoming fixated on having a a big player upfront aspect, and overlooking a lot of his flaws as a consequence.

Fellaini's technical ability and passing is average, and not half as bad as some on here are making out. We have seen over the course of the season several key passes and involvement from Fellaini in linkup play. I find the criticisms of his passing to be odd because a) he isnt in the team to be our playmaker, and b) he tends to play in a very advanced role high up the pitch, so of course he will have more backwards passes.

Therein lies the problem, a big reason why we didn't always create a lot of clear cut scoring opportunities this season. Your team's presumptive attacking midfielder who plays in an advanced position is supposed to be the architect of the team's creative play, he has to be a play-maker due to the nature of the position he plays in within the edge of the final 3rd. And that's almost universal in terms of application - let's look at some of the attacking midfielders from the present and past. The likes of of Gotze for Dortmund, Kaka for Milan, Rui Costa for Fiorentina, Riquelme for Villarreal - all provided massive creative impetus in terms of their excellent passing range, vision and movement. Honestly, which big European team has an attacking midfielder/ #10 who's similar to Fellaini in terms of his skillset where aerial dominance overrides play-making potential ? Why should we be smartarses bucking a tried and tested trend that is there for a reason.

Fellaini has shown fantastic mental strength and attitude to play his way into the first XI this season after nearly being sold and being booed by our own fans in preseason. We need strong characters like this in the team, we have seen what can happen to mentally fragile players in the PL.

Can't disagree. He has shown good resilience and application this season.

Final point on mentality, Fellaini is a big-game player. He was our MotM in the first game against Chelsea (and this was in the DM role that his critics claim he cannot play, marking Fabregas off the pitch), and one of the best against City and Arsenal in the first half of the season to name but a few. Fellaini's best games have normally come against the big clubs (based on this, I find it strange that people assume that he would be useless in the CL.)

Fair dos. He has done well in some of the bigger games this season. Though I do think his role in said games is being overstated. MOTM status typically signifies a player who was gamebreaking in terms of importance and critical in terms of his overall influence of the game. IMO De Gea was our MOTM vs Chelsea, vs Arsenal too because of the volume of class saves he made, vs Arsenal there were multiple similar leveled performances by Rooney and Di Maria and Fellaini. Again the likes of De Gea and Van Persie vs Liverpool. Yet you won't find people claiming Van Persie was a big game player this year despite scoring vs crucial goals both against Chelsea and Liverpool. In some of the other important games - he was a non factor vs Chelsea taken off vs Everton. It was kind of a mixed bag in parts and not consistent dominance.

As for Europe, people are slightly justified in being a pessimistic. The caliber of players he could potentially face next season is frightening, notches above what he faced this season. Since we can't make an educated prognostication of how he'll fare in the Champions League, we have to take some guidance from some of his past displays vs elite type opponents. Which immediately brings up images of Bayern Munich at Old Trafford in 2013/ 2014 where Lahm just out-thought, outplayed and even out muscled him. It's kind of natural to be wary.

Fellaini is a good target for long balls which helps us to retain possession in situations where we need to play it long. It also gives us a backup plan if we are chasing the game, to play it long to Fellaini.

Long balls are an insignificant part of the game from an overall perspective IMO. How often does one hear praise for #9s that are at the end of the keeper's long-balls ? Any number of tall players could do that.

Fellaini has been one of our better outfield players this season and has been the player that opponents (such as Chelsea) have marked out and specifically set out to counter. Our best form in the first half of the season coincided almost perfectly with Fellaini's run in the team, and he has been integral in most of our best performances.

Faint praise. He was marked out because our tactics became reliant on punting the ball up to him. It's like marking Peter Crouch or Andy Carroll because they're a menace in the air, and then allocating a disproportionate amount of praise their way, while overlooking a lot of their weaknesses in confined space or when pressed, where they look ponderous and out of ideas.

Fellaini receives a disproportionate amount of criticism and abuse relative to his performances and other players.

A lot of people (myself included) don't like his playing style, and at times that factors into the criticism. We want a Scholes or Keane or Carrick or even a Hargreaves. We want to watch midfielders that can capture the imagination, dazzle with their passing and set the rhythm for the game. That is why folks have taken to Herrera, because he offers the hope of developing into at least a watered down version of Scholes if not anything else. He's pleasing on the eye, and that matters a lot. Folks were praising Zidane and Iniesta even when they had mediocre games. Because even when they played at an average standard, it was visually captivating.

That is why folks till want someone like a Gundogan or Vidal or Schweinsteiger, players who have evidenced the ability to take over games vs the likes of Real Madrid on the grandest stage. What Fellaini offers in a large part is a Stoke type approach, which has unfortunately been implemented at United. Fairly on unfairly, this does color people's opinion. Is the criticism objective ? A lot of times, yes. Is it unfairly blown of proportion because of the way he plays ? Again, a lot of times, yes. As for the abuse part, it shouldn't be condoned in football or in real life. There's always a more respectful way of getting your point across. He is a human being after all, and whistling doesn't solve anything.

 

[noodlehair]

@noodlehairFor example, where you say that he is "good at heading in crosses", I would say that he adds a whole new angle to our attack, and that we have seen plenty of times in the past that without any genuine aerial threat, teams are happy to just show us down the flanks and defend the central areas, and we cannot break it down regardless of how many crosses we put in. Furthermore, his aerial strength has been a major asset for us on defending set pieces and corners.

I think that's pretty much the opposite of true though. Manchester United have traditionally and right up until very recently, been more effective as a wide play/crossing team than any other top side in England, arguably Europe. To say it's a dimension that's been missing from our game until Fellaini turned up is silly. Unless you base the entire theory on a single home game against Fulham, which happened after we signed Fellaini.

The idea Fellaini makes us a better attacking threat is also contradictory to the fact we've been less of an attacking threat this season (and to an extent last) than any other recent season I can remember. We've lost or dropped points to teams who haven't even been trying to win, largely BECAUSE we've deployed Fellaini tactics. Swansea, West Brom, West Ham. Do you care to explain how this fits in with this theory?

I haven't noticed our defending at set pieces being particularly impressive this season. In fact it's often been awful.

You are saying we stopped playing football in order to punt crosses at him - but this is simply not true, and I suspect you probably know that as well and are just saying it for dramatic effect.

We have done this in several games. VERY blatantly against Swansea. I mean to the point it was embarassing...and so much so against West Ham that the opposition manager felt the need to take the piss out of it after the game.

@noodlehair
You say that there has been several games where he has been the least useful player on the pitch and offered nothing - but I dont think that is true either, as like I said, even when he isnt directly involved, he is an asset on defending set pieces and his aerial presence forces opponents to defend wide areas, which creates space for other players. If anything, I generally apportion more of the blame on those other players, who have not had opponents specifically man marking them, have not had the opposition pretty much setting out to stop them, and have still failed to produce anything (I am primarily referring to the three games without scoring).

Now we're back to the argument people used to use to defend Kagawa or Mata when they played poorly, that it is somehow everyone else in the team's fault. As soon as you get on to thinking that way you should have another think about it first, because it will rarely be the case.

Those three games without scoring, Fellaini was awful in. In fact in one of them he was so bad he actually did get hooked off at half time. He wasn't the only poor performer, but he very definitely wasn't doing anything to suggest he was some kind of linchpin who other players let down. In fact that's utterly ridiculous. He got played clean through on goal in one of those games and punted the ball a mile over the bar. That was about his most meaningful contribution.

Your description of his "special role" is also pretty biased as well, as it was this "special role" which was crucial to our success in most of our best periods this season. Where you seem to think it is a problem for us to have a unique player, I see it as a benefit to have that in the squad, and that it gives the manager options that other teams do not have.

Was it though? I thought it was Carrick that was crucial to our success? Then Herrera? It just seems to be whoever the argument happens to suit now.

He played well in the Spurs and Liverpool games, but it was partly because we surprised them by playing him so advanced, and for some reason they didn't bother doing anything about it for half the game. Two, maybe three good games, but in which the whole team played well, and where in actual fact we weren't reliant on Fellaini or anyone else indvidually because we were attacking effectively down either side of the pitch and controlling the game from midfield.

It proved he can play in a United team that plays well. It certainly didn't prove he's essential to the team playing well. What also then happened is teams just put an extra man over his side to cover for us having the extra man there, and he's yet to prove he can play well when this happens. To presume it would be ok to play him there regularly atm, is to also presume that every single team we play will inexplicably be too thick to do this.

The special role I talk of is the role he plays. His role is literally to just sort of mingle about in an area challenging for the ball. That's it. Moyes tried him in midfield, but he wasn't good enough. Van Gaal has tried him as a front man or playing with a front man, and again, he wasn't up to it. As a squad player, or wild card, if we're happy using him in that way, fine. It can throw the opposition off occasionally for sure.

Put him in that role every week though, and, as youve seen, after a maximum of two or three games, teams account for it and then it ends up being more of a problem for us than it is for them. This is the sort of thing England would do, and then you get loads of gimps putting the same sort of arguments forward for Andy Carroll as are being used here. "but he's a menace", "but he defends corners", etc.

His ball control, there isnt much I can really say here except that if Fellaini's ball control is the worst you have ever seen, I would question how many players you have actually seen. If you are interested, skip back through this thread and you will see absolutely loads of comments by posters who are/were pleasantly surprised by his technical ability on the ball.

Basically you are just being massively biased - you say yourself that you are probably being "a bit harsh" and I think the reality is that it is a lot more than "a bit".

His ball control is extremely poor. I'm not sure what you would base an argument against this on. I mean he controls the ball noticably better with his chest than he does with his foot. That is not a good thing.

I don't think he's god's gift but this is over the top. We had worse players in the squad when we won our last 2 UCLs. Hell Barcelona had Seydou Keita in the squad both times they schooled us in the UCL, he even played against us in the final in 2009. Not a bad player by any means but in terms of talent and impact he was no better than Fellaini. A well over the hill Guðjohnsen was also in the squad that night and played 34 games for Barcelona that season (scoring 4 goals). Fellaini's contribution this season has far outweighed that, he's comfortably good enough and useful enough to warrant a squad place. That's all the vast majority of the people defending him are saying, very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.

I can't think of any regular first teamers from our last two CL winning squads who were as limited as Fellaini? Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final? I mean who? Tevez? Scholes? What do you think would have happened if we'd done this?

The whole idea brings home my point quite nicely, tbh.

Also, comparing that Barcelona team to this United one, that's just a no from the get go. We're world's away from that. You might as well say Jonathan Walters could have played for Barcelona based on his contributions for Stoke.

I think that's part of the problem here. You lot are talking about United this season as if what you've seen was good enough. It was barely good enough for 4th place, in a very poor PL season.

The fact that several teams felt the need to change their entire system to deal with Fellaini shows that he is nowhere near as ineffective as you make out - you dont bother doing that for players who cant control the ball or pass. It is no coincidence that Young played his best football towards the end of the season - he directly benefited from teams putting a man on Fellaini as it gave him a lot more space and opportunity to go 1 vs 1 against the fullback.

When we played our best football of the whole season, Fellaini was integral to it and that wasnt any form of hoof ball either.

I don't think he was integral to our best football of the season. How was he integral? Because he played in a position?

I can tell you what he was integral to though...our worst football of the season.

 

[Cassidy]

Although @noodlehair is being very harsh in the way he is depicting his point, I actually agree with him.
Fellaini has done a decent job this season, but he has not been anything special at all and should most certainly not be in the starting 11 next season.
Apart from our get it to Fellaini in the box tactic (which has at times been effective and at times been ineffective) how/what else has he been able to contribute to our play?


You have to give him credit, he has been a menace at times this season and he has bounced back well from being booed/heckled by his own fans (which was out of order)
for that fact, and for the fact he can be a good option off the bench to switch things up then he'll make a good squad player, but if we want to win the league than that is the most he should ever be.

 

[Blue always red]

He wants to be here, his attitude is good and he scored his share of goals in a season where we weren't very creative. United have never been a team who have big muppet names in every position, we've always had players who aren't the best but give their best and want to play. I don't see why we need to get rid of him personally, and I don't think LVG is going to get rid of him either.

His temperament on the field was, by and large, good this season but he definitely let himself down on Saturday. Very disappointed he was so reckless.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

I can't think of any regular first teamers from our last two CL winning squads who were as limited as Fellaini? Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final? I mean who? Tevez? Scholes? What do you think would have happened if we'd done this?

I think that's part of the problem here. You lot are talking about United this season as if what you've seen was good enough. It was barely good enough for 4th place, in a very poor PL season.

This debate has turned into two sets of people, one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's a decent player and a good option to have and he has a future here as a squad member' and one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's dreadful and it's ridiculous that you think he's good enough to be a starter' despite the fact that, to my knowledge, no-one in this thread has suggested that Fellaini is good enough to be a starter in a side contending for the UCL. Many of the people who are defending him have specifically spelled that out. The thing that makes this thread so frustrating to post in is that people can quote a post which states '...very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.' with 'Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final?'. You're either willfully misreading posts or you're so blinded by your distaste for Fellaini that you can't process the things you're replying to.

It's also nothing to do with lowering standards - most of us are saying that Fellaini shouldn't be such a key player for us going forwards and that his role should be reduced to back-up or a Plan B as we buy a better player to play in the first team. I'm yet to see how that is in anyway contentious.

 

[Kill 'em all]

I would think that if we get the right players this summer he won't be getting such a prominent role next season. He was just a quick fix for our lack of balance in midfield and we shall fix that with a defensive midfield signing in the summer to let our little Spanish players go further up front without worrying as much about their defensive duties.

 

[sullydnl]

This debate has turned into two sets of people, one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's a decent player and a good option to have and he has a future here as a squad member' and one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's dreadful and it's ridiculous that you think he's good enough to be a starter' despite the fact that, to my knowledge, no-one in this thread has suggested that Fellaini is good enough to be a starter in a side contending for the UCL. Many of the people who are defending him have specifically spelled that out. The thing that makes this thread so frustrating to post in is that people can quote a post which states '...very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.' with 'Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final?'. You're either willfully misreading posts or you're so blinded by your distaste for Fellaini that you can't process the things your replying to.

It's also nothing to do with lowering standards - most of us are saying that Fellaini shouldn't be such a key player for us going forwards and that his role should be reduced to back-up or a Plan B as we buy a better player to play in the first team. I'm yet to see how that is in anyway contentious.

This is quite true.

It'd be one thing if someone thought Fellaini should be starting next season as a first choice player but in reality nearly everyone already accepts that he should be no more than a squad player. Not sure what people are arguing about given there's no real pressing reason not to have him on the bench next season.

 

[Lentwood]

I would use him as a centre forward next season, only in games where we are desperate for a goal and need to play the percentages a bit more. At times this season we have looked at our most dangerous with Fellaini as a target man. The problem is I don't think we can rely on this long term to win a title/european cup. Ideally we would bring in somebody with all of Fellaini's attributes but more ability (Benteke?)

Certainly don't see him being a regular starter in midfield, particularly after Hull gives LvG the perfect excuse to leave him out next season when competition will hopefully be fierce

 

[Robbie Boy]

I hope we keep him, not much point in selling really. He's definitely a good squad option as he proved on plenty of occasions this season. He shouldn't be an automatic first choice once our summer business is concluded, but nevertheless, he's definitely a useful player to have around. I guess he will always be a player that divides opinions based on what he is as a player.

 

[Walrus]

@noodlehair
I think you are being overly harsh and biased to be honest, and agree with @jeff_goldblum 's post that you (and others) appear to be shifting the goalposts.

I am probably Fellaini's most outspoken supporter on here, and I have not claimed that he should be a key player or automatic starter next season. What I have said, and continue to play is the he is a great option to have in the squad. He has shown that if he plays well he can be one of the first names on the team sheet on merit, and if he is not playing well then we should have other players who can play that role and potential be first choice as well. I believe in picking players on form, not on having a set of designated "starters" and a set of designated "bench warmers".

You are also taking my statements and exaggerating them. Its effectively reductio ad absurdum. At no point have I said that it is everyone elses fault that Fellaini isnt playing well. What I have said is that other teams realised that if they stop Fellaini, they stop the team, because other players have not proven capable of stepping up and performing well, and that if Fellaini is specifically being man marked then it should create space for other players to exploit, but that we have not seen them do that either.

Effectively your entire argument consists of taking any positive contribution from Fellaini and attributing it to luck/circumstance/other external factor, but any sort of negative contribution you are exaggerating and pinning on him personally.





@Invictus
Thank you for the reply. There are a few things that I think we can simply agree to disagree on - for instance the value (or not) of uniqueness. I do think that in this aspect though, Fellaini is not directly comparable to a 'tall striker' - so your suggestion that we could replace him with someone like Llorente is not accurate I feel. Fellaini doesnt (or very rarely at least) play as a striker, he plays as - for lack of a better definition - an advanced box to box midfielder. It is not a clearly defined role because he is a fairly physically unique player to play in that position - I see that as a good thing, you do not, fine. My impression of LVG is that he enjoys tweaking (as demonstrated by some of his World Cup matches) and probably enjoys having a unique weapon at his disposal, from a tactical point of view.

I do think this particular element is being overrated, because synchronized movement is way more effective if terms of opening up spaces or channels. If it was such a big advantage or a genius tactic, why aren't other teams putting 6'4"dudes upfront and pumping balls long ? Why didn't Jan Koller play for an elite sides consistently ? Why didn't Carew ? People are becoming fixated on having a a big player upfront aspect, and overlooking a lot of his flaws as a consequence.

The answer is similar here - that other teams probably didnt have a player who provided that option whilst being able to contribute to the required level in other areas of play. Of course, many of his critics are arguing that Fellaini doesn't, and can't contribute at the level we strive for, but I think he has done enough this season during our better performances to disprove that theory. You only need to go back to about page 50 in this thread to see the dozens of posts lauding the fact that it turned out that he can actually play with the ball below waist level.

Once teams started specifically setting out to counter him, his performance level dropped. I have already said that I do think that this was the opportunity for other players in the side to step up, but for arguments sake lets imagine we play Barcelona - who exactly are they going to stick 'on' Fellaini to nullify him? The common argument I see is that Fellaini would have a nightmare against a team like Barca because he wouldnt be able to defend against them, but put the boot on the other foot for a moment and question how Barca would be able to play against Fellaini? If we assume that we arent going to be outplaying Barcelona on a purely technical basis anytime soon, that is a situation where a more direct style of play with an effective outlet would likely be a big advantage.
Again, it is just an option to have in the squad.

Therein lies the problem, a big reason why we didn't always create a lot of clear cut scoring opportunities this season. Your team's presumptive attacking midfielder who plays in an advanced position is supposed to be the architect of the team's creative play, he has to be a play-maker due to the nature of the position he plays in within the edge of the final 3rd. And that's almost universal in terms of application - let's look at some of the attacking midfielders from the present and past. The likes of of Gotze for Dortmund, Kaka for Milan, Rui Costa for Fiorentina, Riquelme for Villarreal - all provided massive creative impetus in terms of their excellent passing range, vision and movement. Honestly, which big European team has an attacking midfielder/ #10 who's similar to Fellaini in terms of his skillset where aerial dominance overrides play-making potential ? Why should we be smartarses bucking a tried and tested trend that is there for a reason.

Effectively we are just talking about expectation and rigidity of a particular position here. You are saying that a teams #10 should be the technical playmaker, but when was this rule ever written? Football formations and tactics have evolved constantly over the years and will continue to do so. If anything, we have already seen something of a decline of the 'true' #10, in favour of more hard working players who contribute more defensively. This coincidentally is also why I dont think LVG likes Mata as a #10, but that is a different debate.

Ignoring the fact that we havent actually played with a #10 this season, but rather with two advanced CMs (Fellaini and Herrera) in effectively a 4-1-4-1 system, Fellaini offers the defensive contribution from an advanced role which is very useful for pressing high up the pitch and winning the ball back. If he was playing as our sole, dedicated #10 then I would be inclined to see his technical limitations as a bigger problem, but he hasn't been, and thus he and Herrera have generally complemented each other pretty well in this regard - Herrera has been the creative one, Fellaini has been the physical one. Both have played effectively advanced box-to-box roles and both have contributed defensively (I would argue that Fellaini's defensive contribution is higher than Herrera's due to his added aerial ability).

Personally, I enjoy seeing new formations, systems and other things that buck the trend, and this is probably a factor in why I think we would be mad to sell Fellaini unless a really good offer came in. For me, he should be competing with other midfielders such as Herrera, Di Maria and probably one other, for the two advanced CM roles in the team (assuming we continue using the same system - which isnt guaranteed of course) - not an automatic starter, but I would say the same for the other players, and that they can compete fairly for the spots.


My final point is more general, and is basically what I said in my "Great Teams are Built, not Bought" thread from a week or two ago;
Our team has changed a lot over the last two years. Another poster made a thread analysing this, and only something like 4 of the players from two years ago managed more than 20 games for us this season.

Over the course of this season, we saw definite improvements in our overall style of play - it seemed more organised, more deliberate and basically as though there was a plan. We obviously werent/arent the finished article yet, but the foundations appeared to be there.

I think it is fair to say that as the players learn and understand LVGs system, as well as each other's games, that our level of synergy and overall play will improve as a result. I fully expect every player from this season to have the capability to play better if given time to work with the rest of the existing squad, and a team understanding develops.

Going back to Fellaini, I feel this is important when we are discussing scope for improvement, because he is one of those who I think can and will improve a lot under LVG if he is given a chance to (and I think LVG will give him that chance).

 

[SonnyTheHaloPro]

Why should we keep a player who cost close to £30million in a minor squad player capacity? Either play him or sell him. Obviously I would rather sell him, we can probably get upwards of £15million for him now.

If LVG is not going to start him next season then he should sell him, and I hope we are not planning on repeating this long balls bollocks we have seen all season ever again.

 

[LR7]

I was probably Fellaini's biggest critic previously. I had nothing good to say about him at all. I despised him as a player at Everton, and was particularly incensed that we bought him. Everything that happened over the course of last season only exacerbated that.

I'm reasonably comfortable with him now though. Seeing his name on the team sheet no longer fills me with rage. He's been a positive for us this season and I'm glad we've had him.

His niggly fouling is irksome at times and on occasion he can get a bit casual. He might not be in most United fans' dream teams, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a less prominent presence next season but but I definitely think he's a good option to have in the squad and he probably deserves his place in the team more than most.

 

[Man of Leisure]

This debate has turned into two sets of people, one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's a decent player and a good option to have and he has a future here as a squad member' and one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's dreadful and it's ridiculous that you think he's good enough to be a starter' despite the fact that, to my knowledge, no-one in this thread has suggested that Fellaini is good enough to be a starter in a side contending for the UCL. Many of the people who are defending him have specifically spelled that out. The thing that makes this thread so frustrating to post in is that people can quote a post which states '...very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.' with 'Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final?'. You're either willfully misreading posts or you're so blinded by your distaste for Fellaini that you can't process the things you're replying to.

It's also nothing to do with lowering standards - most of us are saying that Fellaini shouldn't be such a key player for us going forwards and that his role should be reduced to back-up or a Plan B as we buy a better player to play in the first team. I'm yet to see how that is in anyway contentious.

Great, so everyone's in agreement. Fellaini isn't good enough to be in our starting XI, but might be useful to keep around for the squad. Now can someone spell this out to you-know-who?

 

[RuudTom83]

LVG found a formula that worked and secured CL football, but that formula was found out pretty quickly so i'd hope next season the approach evolves slightly because using Fellaini's height might win a few games but it isn't going to win the league.

 

[MZX7]

I think you are being a bit one sided in your first two paragraphs here Invictus - as you say, this applies (or should apply) to both sides of the argument. I have been trying to engage in reasoned and objective discussion on here for months with very little success. I am just as tired of repeating the same old arguments as everyone else probably is of reading them - but nobody seems willing or able to respond in any objective sense.
All I tend to see is "Fellaini is a donkey, he is the most technically limited player to ever set foot on a football pitch and cant do anything but elbow people and head in crosses." This is obviously not factually correct or objective in any way. I have never dismissed or complained about what I see as genuine criticism. Perhaps your comments in that paragraph are not aimed at me particularly, but nonetheless I feel the exact same way about the anti-Fellaini crowd.

I have laid out my arguments time and time again in this thread, and I invite you (or anyone else) to respond to them. Rather than dig up an old post, I will summise them here;

• Fellaini offers a unique option for us which other players in his role do not. This in itself is a valuable asset that a shrewd manager can take advantage of, tactically.
• Fellaini is a constant threat on attacking and defending set pieces, moreso than almost any other outfield player.
• And this is an important one - having Fellaini on the pitch forces opponents to change the way they defend. We saw last year that teams were happy to simply show us down the flanks and defend the central areas, in the knowledge that we could swing in crosses all day long and they would clear them. Having a genuine aerial threat changes this, and our best performances this season have been examples of this. Opponents were forced to defend the wide areas, which created space in other areas of the pitch for our other attacking players to exploit. In our best games we attacked both from wide areas and central ones, and Fellaini's role was integral in this.
• Fellaini's technical ability and passing is average, and not half as bad as some on here are making out. We have seen over the course of the season several key passes and involvement from Fellaini in linkup play. I find the criticisms of his passing to be odd because a) he isnt in the team to be our playmaker, and b) he tends to play in a very advanced role high up the pitch, so of course he will have more backwards passes.
• Fellaini has shown fantastic mental strength and attitude to play his way into the first XI this season after nearly being sold and being booed by our own fans in preseason. We need strong characters like this in the team, we have seen what can happen to mentally fragile players in the PL.
• Related to the previous point, Fellaini never hides on the pitch. Even if he or the team is playing poorly, he will still show for the ball and contribute to the game when we have seen other players simply go missing altogether.
• Final point on mentality, Fellaini is a big-game player. He was our MotM in the first game against Chelsea (and this was in the DM role that his critics claim he cannot play, marking Fabregas off the pitch), and one of the best against City and Arsenal in the first half of the season to name but a few. Fellaini's best games have normally come against the big clubs (based on this, I find it strange that people assume that he would be useless in the CL.)
• Fellaini is a good target for long balls which helps us to retain possession in situations where we need to play it long. It also gives us a backup plan if we are chasing the game, to play it long to Fellaini.
• Fellaini has been one of our better outfield players this season and has been the player that opponents (such as Chelsea) have marked out and specifically set out to counter. Our best form in the first half of the season coincided almost perfectly with Fellaini's run in the team, and he has been integral in most of our best performances.
• Fellaini receives a disproportionate amount of criticism and abuse relative to his performances and other players.

As I said, this is just a summary of some of things I have been saying for months in this thread. I may have missed some things, but the above should be sufficient for now.

I am not going to debate the Fellaini/Keita comparison that has developed, because I see it as a bit pointless. Not least because Fellaini is a pretty unique player in what he offers, and hence making valid comparisons to other players in any sort of detail can be quite tricky. Also I didnt watch enough of Keita at Barcelona to really have an informed opinion.

Thank you for taking the time to construct a reasoned post.

Great Post @Walrus People tend to ignore the utility of a player like Fellaini or Young while salivating for talented players who aren't fitting well enough into a given system.

There is a reason why LvG is choosing these players week in and week out. If they were half as useless as their haters make them out to be, they'd not even make the bench.

If we get better players in the system and they start performing as a unit, then sure, keep these players off the team or even the bench, but if they seem to be the best choices to fit into a system or to counter an oppositions strengths, then a keen manager will put them on. And I think we have seen this season, how shrewd usage of these so-called "lesser talented" players can sometimes lift the performance of other players on the pitch just because they are performing their role to a tee.

 

[Rood]

I don't think he was integral to our best football of the season. How was he integral? Because he played in a position?

I can tell you what he was integral to though...our worst football of the season.

Ive heard you say the same for at least 2 other players this season, standard noodle negative hyperbole!

I assume that everyone will agree that our best football this season was the March/April run with big performances against Spurs/Scouse/City - Fellaini was integral to each one of those wins, not just in my opinion either, the great minds of the Caf collectively voted him in our top3 performers in those games.

Anyway Im intrigued to know when exactly this noodlehate of the afroman began because I specifically remember you being quite supportive of him earlier in the season and saying he was taking too much stick.

 

[Rood]

Why should we keep a player who cost close to £30million in a minor squad player capacity? Either play him or sell him. Obviously I would rather sell him, we can probably get upwards of £15million for him now.

If LVG is not going to start him next season then he should sell him...

I dont think you actually understand what a squad player is - there wont be many players who start every game for us next season.

I was probably Fellaini's biggest critic previously. I had nothing good to say about him at all. I despised him as a player at Everton, and was particularly incensed that we bought him. Everything that happened over the course of last season only exacerbated that.

I'm reasonably comfortable with him now though. Seeing his name on the team sheet no longer fills me with rage. He's been a positive for us this season and I'm glad we've had him.

His niggly fouling is irksome at times and on occasion he can get a bit casual. He might not be in most United fans' dream teams, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a less prominent presence next season but but I definitely think he's a good option to have in the squad and he probably deserves his place in the team more than most.

Well done on being perfectly reasonable - rare to see on here nowadays!

 

[Stadjer]

I wonder how he will do in the CL next season.. he was decent/good in the Premier League this season but i am afraid European referees will send him off before half time. His playing style looks just so clumsy at times (also a bit dirty sometimes) and those elbows of him could become a huge problem in the CL.

He already got a red card in the CL during 'the Moyes Era' right?

 

[Walrus]

I wonder how he will do in the CL next season.. he was decent/good in the Premier League this season but i am afraid European referees will send him off before half time. His playing style looks just so clumsy at times (also a bit dirty sometimes) and those elbows of him could become a huge problem in the CL.

He already got a red card in the CL during 'the Moyes Era' right?

He was sent off vs Real Sociedad, yes.


Ironically enough, its a pretty similar thing to what Rooney did against Hull - which supports the argument of different refereeing standards in the PL/Europe.

 

[Rood]

I wonder how he will do in the CL next season.. he was decent/good in the Premier League this season but i am afraid European referees will send him off before half time. His playing style looks just so clumsy at times (also a bit dirty sometimes) and those elbows of him could become a huge problem in the CL.

He already got a red card in the CL during 'the Moyes Era' right?

He will need to be more restrained in Europe, but then he does play regularly for Belgium and featured at the WC so that level of refereeing is not new to him.

 

[NL Max]

Marouane Fellaini is a great professional, he also does exactly what van Gaal tells him to do. This will get him in van Gaal's good book for sure. I don't even think he wants to sell him, he's a unique player who fits van Gaal's plan B perfectly. At previous clubs he used a tall player as battering ram and way to mix it up. In the PL Fellaini's height and physicality are great aswell, he's currently the only player with Rooney who offers this in midfield. Since van Gaal said he underestimated the physicality of the league I think Fellaini is a great solution.

A good squad player to have, he will get his fair share of games still. LvG doesn't like those fouls though, hope he can improve on that. The accidents because he's big I can accept, intentional hard fouls I do not like.

 

[sullydnl]

Why should we keep a player who cost close to £30million in a minor squad player capacity? Either play him or sell him. Obviously I would rather sell him, we can probably get upwards of £15million for him now.

If LVG is not going to start him next season then he should sell him, and I hope we are not planning on repeating this long balls bollocks we have seen all season ever again.

The money we spent on him is irrelevant at this stage, it's burned. All that matters is his value to the team relative to what we would bring in by selling him.

Assuming we'd get 15m for him, I don't see the point in selling. We'd have a hard time replacing him with a better player for that price and even if we could that new player would still need time to settle. Sideways move when we have other priorities to deal with first.

 

[Walrus]

Marouane Fellaini is a great professional, he also does exactly what van Gaal tells him to do. This will get him in van Gaal's good book for sure. I don't even think he wants to sell him, he's a unique player who fits van Gaal's plan B perfectly. At previous clubs he used a tall player as battering ram and way to mix it up. In the PL Fellaini's height and physicality are great aswell, he's currently the only player with Rooney who offers this in midfield. Since van Gaal said he underestimated the physicality of the league I think Fellaini is a great solution.

A good squad player to have, he will get his fair share of games still. LvG doesn't like those fouls though, hope he can improve on that. The accidents because he's big I can accept, intentional hard fouls I do not like.

Agree with all of that.

 

[SonnyTheHaloPro]

The money we spent on him is irrelevant at this stage, it's burned. All that matters is his value to the team relative to what we would bring in by selling him.

Assuming we'd get 15m for him, I don't see the point in selling. We'd have a hard time replacing him with a better player for that price and even if we could that new player would still need time to settle. Sideways move when we have other priorities to deal with first.

Replacing him with a better player is easy considering there is so many options out there and who said we need to replace him with only £15million?, also not every player takes time to settle, Guys like Torres, Aguero, Costa, Sanchez, Matic all started ripping this league up straight away.

 

[NK86]

This debate has turned into two sets of people, one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's a decent player and a good option to have and he has a future here as a squad member' and one of whom are saying 'Fellaini's dreadful and it's ridiculous that you think he's good enough to be a starter' despite the fact that, to my knowledge, no-one in this thread has suggested that Fellaini is good enough to be a starter in a side contending for the UCL. Many of the people who are defending him have specifically spelled that out. The thing that makes this thread so frustrating to post in is that people can quote a post which states '...very few, if any, are claiming that he's the quality of player who'll win us UCLs as a starter.' with 'Can you imagine Fellaini starting ahead of anyone in the 2008 CL final?'. You're either willfully misreading posts or you're so blinded by your distaste for Fellaini that you can't process the things you're replying to.

It's also nothing to do with lowering standards - most of us are saying that Fellaini shouldn't be such a key player for us going forwards and that his role should be reduced to back-up or a Plan B as we buy a better player to play in the first team. I'm yet to see how that is in anyway contentious.

Well you also have people overstating his importance to the team claiming our best form in the first half of the season coincided with him being in the team and he was integral to our best performances this season, and as far as I remember neither ia true. Carrick in center midfield and us over loading our left flank was what actually caught oppositions off guard. And Fellaini's main role in that was to control the long ball from DDG and give it to Young/Blind. Yes he did get a couple of good goals but his overall performance gets blown out of proportion to somehow credit him with being one of the main causes for our improvements in those few games.