Strange post. We haven't signed Strootman, and Fellaini seems to be very much in LvG's plans. Sorry.
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Again we have this "he isnt good enough for xx" mentality.
Warning: Actual statistics ahead.
With Fellaini starting every game and playing the full 90 minutes, we have won the last 6 games. Prior to that we lost against City (due to Smalling primarily) and drew against Chelsea. Prior to THAT, Fellaini came on for Herrera against West Brom and was largely agreed to have turned the game around, and scored a goal.
Basically, since Fellaini came into the team we have been doing very well, have broken back into the top four and have all but caught up with City and Chelsea. He has played 90 minutes in the last 8 games (not getting injured, might I add), we have won 6, drawn 1 and lost 1 (with the note that the two we didnt win being Chelsea and City).
Before Fellaini came into the team, we had won 3, drawn 2 and lost 3.
Lets be clear, I am not claiming that Fellaini is solely responsible for that difference, but it irks me when people are confidently proclaiming that he clearly isnt good enough, when in fact since he came into the team we have nearly doubled our points per game. This is in spite of the fact that the games he has played in include Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool!
I don't think he would start if Blind and Carrick are fit (at the same time) and we have a full complement on defenders (so Carrick can play in midfield)
Can't see LvG starting both Carrick and Blind in midfield. It's one or the other IMO.
I wouldn't be so sure, especially noting our inability to retain possession (especially notable since Blinds injury)
Good point. Just an observation from looking at the stats, it's probably better to use the "per 90" metrics for this type of comparison - "average per game" penalizes players who come on as substitutes (or are substituted). It does, of course, make your point stronger.
Is keeping possession really as important as people think it is to LvG? I mean, if it was, Fellaini wouldn't be starting.
Fellaini is playing purely because of his height IMO. If Herrera was the same height as Fellaini he would be starting because he's a better footballer. It's important to have tall players in the team like Fellaini, Carrick, Smalling, van Persie, Jones etc which makes it easier to defend against set pieces.
According to what he said after the Liverpool game yes.
"I am very satisfied with the result but still I think we can improve," said Van Gaal. "We gave a lot of unnecessary balls away and because of that Liverpool also had chances to score a goal.
"We had a lot of space in the second half and we could have played the ball very easily but nevertheless we gave the ball away and that is not good. I shall ask the players tomorrow [Monday] why"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30471648
Yeah I agree. He did improve a fair bit in the second half.
I think we are odds on to sign the Stroot and when that occurs Fellaini will be on his way, if not sooner.
Not sure what you find so strange about that, sorry.
Doesnt that have more to do with Carrick's reintegration into the side?
He has been magnificent this season.
Fellaini is starting because Herrera hasn't done enough to earn his place. And Fellaini has played these last games in a very defensive role which gives him a bit too much responsibility in playmaking for my liking, but due to his better defending I can see why he's preferred to Herrera whose simple passing has been far from impressive and who's physically weak.
Height plays no role, Smalling, Carrick, RVP and even Fellaini play because Van Gaal thinks they're the best options we have in their respective positions. Physical ability might play some role, but I believe the best players will play and Herrera's lack of game time is caused by him not showing his footballing skills frequently, not by his lack of strenght.
You give all the stats your want to be honest but I still don't think he is good enough, this is still a patched up and makeshift side, I don't think we are anywhere near the finished article and once we are I don't think Fellaini will be part of it in terms of starting games. Like it or not he has his limitations that's why Moyes was the only manager who was prepared to pay his buyout clause, anyone who can't admit that and see that there are better options is just kidding themselves.
I don't think people should be so sensitive saying he isn't good enough to play for a top side is fair enough as far as I am concerned, if he proves otherwise then great but I don't think it's really a criticism to say he is no better than a squad player because I can't think of any top European side where he would get in the team.
Pretty sure some betting companies suspended betting on Thiago to us, and others in the past. Garay was odds on to join us for about four transfer windows in a row! It's quite strange. Strootman's not a United player. Fellaini is. And he's a started our last eight games."The stats say this is true but I still won't accept it"
That sort of logic is used by people who refuse to believe in Gravity or evolution.
You say that if he can prove otherwise then great, yet all the figures show that he IS proving otherwise, but there are people who still just say he is shite and needs to be sold.
My question to either of you two or anyone else of the opinion that "he isn't good enough" is can you find a single piece of evidence to back it up?
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What is there to suggest he is good enough? If we are going on recent performances then he comes up short and I don't think what he did at Everton suggests he is good enough. I think he is a good player if you set up your team to use his attributes and are prepared to overlook his short comings but if he is being asked to distribute the ball and occupy a position in a team that wants to move the ball quickly and play possession football he just doesn't have the skill set required.
I don't see why he has to be brilliant or terrible I think just say what he is a good player for a midtable side but a squad player for a top side. I think if he was a good DM he would be an asset anywhere but no really top side wants someone with his passing, first touch and positional ability playing as an attacking midfielder or box to box player and they are his best positions. The best sides want to dominate possession and playing someone with his ability in those positions makes it harder to do that,he has other skills but I don't think compensate enough at the highest level.
United have played Chelsea and City and Fellaini played well in those games. If you're worried about the Barcas and Bayerns then that's next seasons issue (hopefully) and maybe you get your wish and Fellaini is banished from the club.
But everyone throwing wobblers and calling him "a sack of shit" (according to the last match thread) might as well save their bile. He's plenty good enough for the PL. Van Gaal can re-arrange the squad for CL hopefully next summer if he thinks he needs to.
That's the kind of reaction that is just pointless, I haven't said banish him I have just said he isn't quite good enough and I dont think there is any proof otherwise, yeah he did well in those games but he wasn't great against Southampton or liverpool and I don't think assessing him over such a short period proves anything either way.
I don't think how we are playing now is how LVG wants us playing, he is sending a team out to get results just like he did in the World Cup, over time he will want to implement a different style based on keeping the ball much better and as that progresses I see Fellaini losing out because he doesn't fit well enough into that style of football, maybe he will prove otherwise but I don't see anything in his career so far to suggest that.
Agree. If we are being honest, our upturn in form Fellaini has played more than a significant contribution.
Screw that, I've already got a fiver on him scoring the winning goal in the Champion's League final next season and I've got a good record on these bets so...
Well mate I have just given you a bunch of stats about how much better we, as a team have been doing since Fellaini came into the side. ESPECIALLY if you consider the opposition we have faced before/after.
Of course if you want to believe that this is pure coincidence then that is your business, but honestly it is pretty weak logic.
Recently @Pogue Mahone gave stats comparing Fellaini with fan-favourite Herrera, showing Fellaini rating higher in most categories.
On the other hand you (and others) are just repeating your same opinions with nothing at all to back it up except "I am entitled to my opinion! Stop repressing me!"
I was the first person to say yesterday that he didn't suit the position and role he was being asked to play against Liverpool and Southampton, but constant claims that he isn't good enough and should be sold/replaced at the earliest opportunity are just tiresome, as well as being completely contrary to what the stats suggest.
Actually the stats I posted showed him higher than Matic in most categories. He's only better than Hererra in some, mainly defensive, categories.
This run owes a lot more to carrick and de gea than fellaini and what about people like young and Valencia they have done well so should we accept them as first team players now? Your argument seems to rely more on the results of the team rather fellaini as an individual so I don't think you have put forward any argument. Carrick started six games and we won all of them, he has also played well in all the games I don't think the same applies to fellaini.
I also think stats are misleading because it doesn't take everything into account, someone like Leon Britton has had stats comparable in terms of passing on the same level as xavi but he isnt as good a player. I really don't see the problem with saying he has done well but we should be looking for someone better because he is lacking In key areas of his game.
It's just blatant that fellaini can't play as a dm, he can't play in a two man midfield and if you play him in a three man midfield you are sacrificing your ability to maintain possession and move the ball quickly, it's not a huge issue now in our current stare but going forward it will be no matter what stats you come up with. If strootman had of been fit in the summer fellaini was gone, if he is available next summer I think LVG will buy him and fellaini will be a sub, if that is far fetched to you fair enough.
To be honest i find the whole exaggeration of Fellaini's performances and ability and the constant throwing toys out the pram every time a counter argument is put forward just as tiresome.
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Yeah, but don't let reality get in the way of a nice sounding "Fellaini is really good, you were all wrong" narrative.
Well mate, you are saying that I am putting no argument forward, but its infinitely more than your side of the argument which is purely based around "I dont like Fellaini" and "He isnt good enough". Personally I am (and have this entire thread) just been trying to have a reasoned debate and discussion - if anyone is throwing their toys out of the pram, then in my opinion it is in the anti-Fellaini crowd who seem to hang around this thread like vultures, waiting with baited breath for the instant he puts a foot wrong so that they can pounce like a pack of hungry hyenas (Too many analogies? Maybe...). Fellaini was arguably MotM against Chelsea and in our top three performances in several other games, but there is still a significant crowd on here with whom it seems like praising Fellaini is akin to gnawing their own arms off.
I completely agree and even said originally that Fellaini was not solely responsible for our upturn in fortunes. I have also said that he isnt suited to a DM role in a 3-5-2 (not sure why the 3-5-2 needs that role in the first place frankly, but there you go). Carrick has made a big difference as well for sure. But the bottom line is that LVG has trusted Fellaini, given him a chance, and obviously continues to play him. It is reasonable to infer from that that LVG has in fact been quite pleased with his performances and what he is bringing to the team. Interestingly enough, LVG - unlike the fans - was not here last season so is perhaps seeing Fellaini (and others, to be fair) with a fresh set of eyes, a clean slate without the mess of last season hanging over him. Maybe, just maybe he has come in with an unbiased view and actually values Fellaini's contributions, which is more than a lot of the fans seem to be able to do.
Its the innate anti-Fellaini bias that I cannot stand. And yes, it really is an exceptional case. Watching the game (vs Valencia I think it was) in pre-season when Fellaini got boos/ironic cheers every time he got the ball as soon as he was brought on. He in fact was our best player after coming on, and scored a last minute equaliser if memory serves. The treatment he got then was disgusting and one my lowest points as a United fan, I was genuinely embarrassed and angry.
I look at some of the people on here and what they have written about Fellaini and it wouldnt surprise me if they were in the crowd that game - the level of vitriol is worse than I have seen with any other player. Even with Rooney and his transfer request saga(s).
The above paragraph does not apply to every single poster on here of course, but to a decent amount it does. And then people starting piping up about old Walrus and the Fellaini-fan-club who say he can do no wrong. Its pathetic, and for me it only helps prove the fact that when all statistical evidence fails, resort to trying to discredit the "opposition" (ie the pro-Fellaini crowd).
I have tried to provide some actual stats backing up my argument. You can argue that they are not watertight and that there are other factors for why we have improved - but if you dont think that the introduction of Fellaini is one of those factors, you are kidding yourself. I have yet to see even any attempt from the haters to back up their "Not good enough" claims - just the same regurgitated insults thrown at me/"Fellaini Fan Club", and statements of how as soon as Strootman becomes available Fellaini will be a goner.
This is an example of what I was describing.
Apologies then.
Not suited to DM, not good enough to be a regular centre midfielder for Manchester United.
As I said this winning run owes a lot to the likes of Carrick and De Gea with a number of others (including Fellaini) having played a part in it, I don’t know what you are getting annoyed about very few people not just on this forum but anywhere will ever agree with you because he has and always will be a limited but effective player, I have no dislike for him in the slightest but you only have to watch him play to realise that he is severely lacking in some key areas required to play at the highest level week in week out. He can be a good squad player but that is his ceiling, if he wants to play every game he would have to go back to a club like Everton.
Fellaini has played in the 6 wins but he has been dire in the first half of the last two games, good and average in patches in other games and 6 out of 10 overall I would say, when he first came into the side he did well but we still only picked up two draws and a defeat. If you want to go overboard with praise fair enough but I don’t see anything there to suggest LVG will be rubbing his hands together at the thought of making him an integral part of the team in the long term because he doesn’t have to make do he can go and buy a better player.
Final point I will make is if you want to do some comparisons and look at actual stats then compare Fellaini and what he offers or doesn’t offer to other players who play in a similar position and think about the type of football we will eventually play under LVG. Don’t compare him with Matic because he plays a holding role and we have seen recently you don’t need stats to see who is the better player there, compare him with Fabregas or Toure or numerous others playing at good teams all over Europe who play in a similar position to where Fellaini has been playing. I am not going to get into who is better or worse but if you look at the gulf in terms of passing and technical ability it underlines my point I don’t think any top manager or team would have Fellaini in their first team because what he brings to the team doesn’t compensate for what you sacrifice by playing him.
Anyway that should probably be the end of it now because we won’t really know what LVG thinks until everyone is fit and we see what happens in the next two transfer windows.
Well, if you value stats that much, then here... (Warning: Actual statistics ahead.)
I still don't think numbers that can be manipulated anyway you want to support your logic are a decisive evidence that should end any discussion, but if you see it so then I guess this Fellaini vs Herrera discussion is over.
Those attack/defence/total scores are impossible to interpret. Much better off looking at stats for specific events.
I'm guessing they're still based upon attacking and defensive contributions, but then again your mind's pretty much made up on this debate anyway, so...
I don't think Fellaini is keeping Herrera out of the side, it doesn't have to be one or the other, both of them can play in the same side, that Herrera isn't playing now is the choice of the manager. He was given a chance and he took it, and the coach has kept him in the side ever since. Fellaini isn't stellar or anything fantastic, but he does add something - in a physical sense, and he's quite good at winning the ball. I suspect LVG wants someone who can do this, and Fellaini hasn't done badly in that regard. Let's stop acting as if we've not had players like Oshea, Alan Smith, Brown, even Fletcher starting for our first XI, the thinking that a player has to be world class to start for a top team is flawed, the big Fella isn't world class by any means, but he's in the team on merit these days and I suspect he's being told to do a job of which we don't have anyone else to do. So, I wish people would just stop the Herrera comparison, they are different players and though Herrera is obviously better, I don't think it does him justice to ask him to do the dirty job in midfield, it limits his skill set. Fellaini on the other hand has the skill set to do the dirty job and that's why he's in the team.
I will say that Fellaini has played against tougher opposition than Herrera this season. Having said that, I'm surprised to see Herrera so far ahead in those statistics.
What debate? Bit rude to accuse me of having my mind made up about something without saying what the hell it is I've apparently already decided.
Well, if you value stats that much, then here... (Warning: Actual statistics ahead.)
I still don't think numbers that can be manipulated anyway you want to support your logic are a decisive evidence that should end any discussion, but if you see it so then I guess this Fellaini vs Herrera discussion is over.
Do you know exactly how those stats are calculated? You shouldn't use them if you don't.
All those names you list are squad players sure they had runs in the team but they never really elevated themselves to players who were guaranteed to start and I would put Fellaini in that category.
I agree you dont need world class players in every position but look around at the top sides in Europe and they are stacked full of quality in midfield, that is the one area of the pitch where an emphasis is placed on top quality in every position and why they are able dominate possession and win more often that not against English sides, we aren't near that level yet so Fellaini has his place but if we start to improve it's almost guaranteed he will be phased out of the starting line up.
LVG will have learnt two things from fellaini this season, firstly he can use him in the squad and secondly if Strootman gets himself fit he is more of a priority signing than ever because someone who can add physicality and pass the ball a lot better will be a huge asset in the premier league.
I don't think that is a criticism of Fellaini, like a number of others he will play his part but realistically in the summer two or three players are going to be brought in to improve the first eleven to try and take the team to the next level he won't be alone in being more of a squad player going forward.
Herrera vs Fellaini. Since that's what the stats comparison was about I thought that was obvious.
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