[Lentwood]

Worked harder yesterday so I’ll give him credit for that but not good again. I think the knock gives Ole the perfect reason to give him a mini-break now.

He hasn’t been playing well so lets go James, Martial and Greenwood vs Milan with Cavani ready to come off the bench for 30mins.

As an aside, this is why I am always critical of “assist” and “goal contribution” stats. Technically, Rashford got an assist yesterday but we all know Shaw did all the hard work.

Most areas of evaluating football matches have come on leaps and bounds but the way assists are measured is still too simplistic

 

[RedStarUnited]

He's really out of form. Might be general fatigue, might be the injury he's carrying, but something needs to be done because his form has been poor for a while.

Underhit passes ruining promising attacks.
Dribbling into players
Shooting when he's got a crowd of players in front of him
Not shooting when there's a good chance
Ignoring or not seeing teammates in good positions.
Walking around the pitch too often

These have all become staples of his recent performances. We're not doing ourselves any favours by playing him week in and week out, but he needs to be doing better too.

Annoys the hell out of me.So many times Shaw is on the ball and running towards him and he either stops to watch or walks backwards! When Dan James switched to the left flank yesterday, he made so many 'empty runs'. Runs that might not lead to anything for himself but are hugely beneficial to the rest of the team. Rashford hardly ever does these.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Worked harder yesterday so I’ll give him credit for that but not good again. I think the knock gives Ole the perfect reason to give him a mini-break now.

He hasn’t been playing well so lets go James, Martial and Greenwood vs Milan with Cavani ready to come off the bench for 30mins.

As an aside, this is why I am always critical of “assist” and “goal contribution” stats. Technically, Rashford got an assist yesterday but we all know Shaw did all the hard work.

Most areas of evaluating football matches have come on leaps and bounds but the way assists are measured is still too simplistic

What about tap-in goals, should they also be measured by a different metric? I mean, I've seen Marcus go past 2 players, humiliated one of them with his own sort of the elastico and put the ball on a plate for Pogba for the tap-in. Should Rashford have gotten recognition for the goal as well, because as you said in your comment, we all know the goal had nothing to do with Pogba and he was just there in the box by accident.

It's funny how only the likes of Bruno and Rashford get these "stat-padding" goals and assists labeled for them. It's as if the rest of the players have 0 luck but a lot more quality.

 

[Lentwood]

What about tap-in goals, should they also be measured by a different metric? I mean, I've seen Marcus go past 2 players, humiliated one of them with his own sort of the elastico and put the ball on a plate for Pogba for the tap-in. Should Rashford have gotten recognition for the goal as well, because as you said in your comment, we all know the goal had nothing to do with Pogba and he was just there in the box by accident.

It's funny how only the likes of Bruno and Rashford get these "stat-padding" goals and assists labeled for them. It's as if the rest of the players have 0 luck but a lot more quality.

In answer to your question, yes tap-in goals do count and should count because in order to score 15+ PL goals you will need to score that type of goal. It’s a skill in itself being able to score those goals on a regular basis and its actually something we are badly missing - how many tap-ins have we scored this season? Not enough!

In that scenario you describe with Rashford, I would describe that as a “key assist” or something like that - i.e. he did something that directly led to a goal. My point is, it would be useful if we could split key assists like a dribble and a pass, a through-ball or a cross from the “cheap” assists players (not just Rashford- any player) can pick-up from rolling a ball sideways to an opponent.

On the subject of stat-padding, I have no issues with stat-padders if the stats are irrefutably there. I have an issue when mediocre performances are excused by using mediocre stats.

So, just as an example, Bruno can throw in some extremely poor performances, however, he has something like 50 goals/assists in something like 50 games. So I don’t care.

If a player (any player) stinks the place out week-in, week out but someone says “oh but they have 15 goal contributions” or whatever...then that’s not going to wash with me

Like anything, its subjective.

 

[DoomSlayer]

In answer to your question, yes tap-in goals do count and should count because in order to score 15+ PL goals you will need to score that type of goal. It’s a skill in itself being able to score those goals on a regular basis and its actually something we are badly missing - how many tap-ins have we scored this season? Not enough!

In that scenario you describe with Rashford, I would describe that as a “key assist” or something like that - i.e. he did something that directly led to a goal. My point is, it would be useful if we could split key assists like a dribble and a pass, a through-ball or a cross from the “cheap” assists players (not just Rashford- any player) can pick-up from rolling a ball sideways to an opponent.

On the subject of stat-padding, I have no issues with stat-padders if the stats are irrefutably there. I have an issue when mediocre performances are excused by using mediocre stats.

So, just as an example, Bruno can throw in some extremely poor performances, however, he has something like 50 goals/assists in something like 50 games. So I don’t care.

If a player (any player) stinks the place out week-in, week out but someone says “oh but they have 15 goal contributions” or whatever...then that’s not going to wash with me

Like anything, its subjective.

Marcus has 30 g/a in 43 games (35 starts). The way it sounds like in this thread, surely we have quite a few players that are better than him in attack and would get 60 g/a instead of 30.

 

[Lentwood]

Marcus has 30 g/a in 43 games (35 starts). The way it sounds like in this thread, surely we have quite a few players that are better than him in attack and would get 60 g/a instead of 30.

I'll willing to allow any player a drop-off in form as long as they keep working hard. The trouble with Rashford this season is that at times the performances haven't been there and neither has the effort.

If he works as hard as he did against City, then a mediocre game with an 'easy' assist will do fine for me and you won't hear me complaining.

If he sulks around the pitch like he did against Palace and Chelsea, getting outrun by Harry Maguire at CB, then he's going to get criticism if the performances aren't there

 

[DoomSlayer]

I'll willing to allow any player a drop-off in form as long as they keep working hard. The trouble with Rashford this season is that at times the performances haven't been there and neither has the effort.

If he works as hard as he did against City, then a mediocre game with an 'easy' assist will do fine for me and you won't hear me complaining.

If he sulks around the pitch like he did against Palace and Chelsea, getting outrun by Harry Maguire at CB, then he's going to get criticism if the performances aren't there

He is 23, in top 5 for most played minutes in the PL, there's been details about him playing through injury last season and now this season.

Every time stats on distance covered are shown, Rashford has been in the top 5 for our club. There was one stat shown by Sky Sports not long ago, which focused on our forwards and showed the top 5 instances of most ground covered by an individual player - Cavani had the top spot with almost 13 kilometres and featured 2 more times, whilst the other 2 spots were covered by Marcus.

I'm 1000% certain that Marcus has injury or fitness issues, because I know he doesn't lack desire or fight, I've seen plenty of him to know he can run around like a mad man. I feel there is a reluctance to speak about it from the point of view of our manager and club, because his problems can be exploited by the opposition. People just don't realise he is one of our best and most important players, that's why he plays every game even with injury issues. That's not his fault, it's the club's fault for not planning ahead and looking for adequate squad depth.

 

[Red00012]

 

[Teja]

Great news!

 

[Mike Smalling]

Rest him against Milan. And don’t sub him on.

 

[Amar__]

So this probably means he will play another 90 minutes in few days.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Good news. I hope he is rested for 2-3 weeks at least so that his body and mind can get a little break. I'm sure it will benefit us more for the rest of the season.

I fear Ole will play him as soon as possible again though...

 

[Red00012]

So this probably means he will play another 90 minutes in few days.

Ole won’t play the game unless Rashy can play

 

[Sayros]

He's too young to be run into the ground like this. This is why a player like Sancho coming in would be huge. It would also give a rest to Rashford and offer more flexibility on the wings.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Please give him a week off or if you want him to come in keep him on the stationary bike. No matches, training or otherwise.

 

[Dante]

I think people are way too harsh on Rashford on this board.

First of all, his decision making is fine. Yes, Rashford takes risks. He runs at people. He tries passes through the eye of a needle. He attempts to catch goalies unaware. It looks bad when it doesn't come off. But just like Bruno, he does it because he's brave enough to try things. And it works often enough for him to be one of the most productive players in Europe

When people call him brainless, how do they think he gets into dangerous positions in the first place? It takes a rare player with high footballing intelligence to be able to assess the situation as well as Rashford consistently does. An unintelligent footballer could never force himself into matches as well as Rashford is able to do.

Rashford does marginally less with the ball than Bruno. But what he does do is more dangerous on average. The leeway Rashford gets for making mistakes should be same that Bruno is afforded.

Player	Games (PL/CL/EL)	Total dribbles	Total passes	Total fouled	Total shots	Assists	Goals	Total actions	Successful Actions	% successful actions	End product per action
Rashford	36	163​	1122​	42​	82​	7​	16​	1409​	1037​	74%​	0.016324​
Bruno	36	39​	1968​	49​	112​	11​	22​	2168​	1676​	77%​	0.015221​

 

[UncleBob]

I think people are way too harsh on Rashford on this board.

First of all, his decision making is fine. Yes, Rashford takes risks. He runs at people. He tries passes through the eye of a needle. He attempts to catch goalies unaware. It looks bad when it doesn't come off. But just like Bruno, he does it because he's brave enough to try things. And it works often enough for him to be one of the most productive players in Europe

When people call him brainless, how do they think he gets into dangerous positions in the first place? It takes a rare player with high footballing intelligence to be able to assess the situation as well as Rashford consistently does. An unintelligent footballer could never force himself into matches as well as Rashford is able to do.

Rashford does marginally less with the ball than Bruno. But what he does do is more dangerous on average. The leeway Rashford gets for making mistakes should be same that Bruno is afforded.

Player	Games (PL/CL/EL)	Total dribbles	Total passes	Total fouled	Total shots	Assists	Goals	Total actions	Successful Actions	% successful actions	End product per action
Rashford	36	163​	1122​	42​	82​	7​	16​	1409​	1037​	74%​	0.016324​
Bruno	36	39​	1968​	49​	112​	11​	22​	2168​	1676​	77%​	0.015221​

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

The leeway Rashford gets for making mistakes should be same that Bruno is afforded.

Nah...as mentioned by other posters the work Bruno does off-ball in every single match means he has a lot of credit in the bank. Distance covered stats are hard to find, but the ones we've seen Bruno consistently tops while Rashford has had a game where he covered less ground than Maguire.

Bruno also presses like a maniac - often by himself unless Cavani or James are playing. His pressing and defensive stats are exceptional for a number 10.

In contrast Rashford is granted one of the biggest luxury roles in football. He has to be consistently productive to balance that out and make it a role worth awarding to him.

Edit - although 'making mistakes'...I think any player should be allowed to make mistakes. My initial post was assuming you meant criticism of consistent issues in their games (like Bruno's sometimes sloppy passing, Rashford's decision making etc)

 

[Dante]

Nah...as mentioned by other posters the work Bruno does off-ball in every single match means he has a lot of credit in the bank. Distance covered stats are hard to find, but the ones we've seen Bruno consistently tops them while Rashford has had a game where he covered less ground than Maguire.

Bruno also presses like a maniac - often by himself unless Cavani or James are playing. His pressing and defensive stats are exceptional for a number 10.

In contrast Rashford is granted one of the biggest luxury roles in football. He has to be consistently productive to balance that out and make it a role worth giving to him.

Edit - although 'making mistakes'...I think any player should be allowed to make mistakes. My initial post was assuming you meant consistent issues in their games (like Bruno's sometimes sloppy passing, Rashford's decision making etc)

Rashford does a shit ton of off the ball running. It's forward running rather than defensive running, but that's what stretches teams and makes the pitch bigger. You can't ask him to do both without risking a burn out. For the same reason Fergie had to rein Rooney in after a couple of seasons. There are more potent ways to makes the most of his energy.

There's a reason why opposition defenders consistently talk about Rashford being a difficult opponent. He makes their lives really hard.

 

[Dante]

The Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

 

[Red00012]

I think people are way too harsh on Rashford on this board.

First of all, his decision making is fine. Yes, Rashford takes risks. He runs at people. He tries passes through the eye of a needle. He attempts to catch goalies unaware. It looks bad when it doesn't come off. But just like Bruno, he does it because he's brave enough to try things. And it works often enough for him to be one of the most productive players in Europe

When people call him brainless, how do they think he gets into dangerous positions in the first place? It takes a rare player with high footballing intelligence to be able to assess the situation as well as Rashford consistently does. An unintelligent footballer could never force himself into matches as well as Rashford is able to do.

Rashford does marginally less with the ball than Bruno. But what he does do is more dangerous on average. The leeway Rashford gets for making mistakes should be same that Bruno is afforded.

Player	Games (PL/CL/EL)	Total dribbles	Total passes	Total fouled	Total shots	Assists	Goals	Total actions	Successful Actions	% successful actions	End product per action
Rashford	36	163​	1122​	42​	82​	7​	16​	1409​	1037​	74%​	0.016324​
Bruno	36	39​	1968​	49​	112​	11​	22​	2168​	1676​	77%​	0.015221​

Stopped reading after his decision making is fine . His decision making is his worst attribute

 

[Dante]

Stopped reading after his decision making is fine . His decision making is his worst attribute

No it isn't. He does things that don't always come off. But he takes those risks because they lead to dangerous situations and, ultimately, goals.

If he kept things safe, United would be a lot worse off.

He deserves the same leeway to lose the ball as Bruno.

 

[RedDevil@84]

First of all, his decision making is fine

No

He tries passes through the eye of a needle

No. He should play football.

 

[Dante]

No

No. He should play football.

You should learn to understand football.

 

[RedDevil@84]

You should learn to understand football.

Really. Coming up with fancy stuff like "Passing through a needle" doesn't make running at a bunch of defenders trying to out-dribble/outsmart 3 people at a time, a smart move. Unless of course you are leagues ahead of all defenders in the league.

Edit: I don't think Rashford is a fool or a complete waste of space or anything drastic, but his decision making is erratic and he needs a lot of improvement on it.

 

[Dante]

Here's the lead up to the penalty on Sunday. His decision making was 'bad' because he ran down a blind alley lost the ball.

But it was that same impetus and that same willingness to take risks that drove City backwards and cause confusion in City's defence. This is exactly the kind of thing that's needed from attacking players.

 

[Dante]

Really. Coming up with fancy stuff like "Passing through a needle" doesn't make running at a bunch of defenders trying to out-dribble/outsmart 3 people at a time, a smart move. Unless of course you are leagues ahead of all defenders in the league.

Edit: I don't think Rashford is a fool or a complete waste of space or anything drastic, but his decision making is erratic and he needs a lot of improvement on it.

It was smart on Sunday.

 

[UncleBob]

Here's the lead up to the penalty on Sunday. His decision making was 'bad' because he ran down a blind alley lost the ball.

But it was that same impetus and that same willingness to take risks that drove City backwards and cause confusion in City's defence. This is exactly the kind of thing that's needed from attacking players.

If we just pretend hard enough, everything Rashford does is intelligent, far beyond what our simple minds are capable of either understanding or enjoying.

There's little wrong with his decision to run with the ball in that specific situation against City. Martial has his back towards goal and players close to him, at best he's there for a one-two, otherwise there's limited passing options but space in behind if he can get past the first City player. It's the same with his shot attempt, there's not really any better options available at the time.

The issue is when he has better options and he ignores them. More often than not, making unintelligent decisions isn't going to result in a goal.

 

[Dante]

If we just pretend hard enough, everything Rashford does is intelligent, far beyond what our simple minds are capable of either understanding or enjoying.

There's little wrong with his decision to run with the ball in that specific situation against City. Martial has his back towards goal and players close to him, at best he's there for a one-two, otherwise there's limited passing options but space in behind if he can get past the first City player. It's the same with his shot attempt, there's not really any better options available at the time.

The issue is when he has better options and he ignores them. More often than not, making unintelligent decisions isn't going to result in a goal.

So the fact Rashford has (or maybe now had) the 4th highest goal contributions across Europe must make him a genius.



The point is that every action that doesn't lead to a goal can be considered unintelligent if you're so inclined. But If he tapped the ball backward every time he received it, that wouldn't mean he's any more intelligent. Running at a player and trying to nutmeg him is a high risk/reward action that also takes bravery and foresight.

All things considered, you fail with the risks you're afraid take. Rashford's ability to assess the most dangerous options make him a dangerous player. And that's borne out by the fact he's so productive.

Like Bruno, he can see the thing that will hurt opposition and benefit United most, and should be allowed the leeway to play those percentages.

 

[UncleBob]

So the fact Rashford has (or maybe now had) the 4th highest goal contributions across Europe must make him a genius.



The point is that every action that doesn't lead to a goal can be considered unintelligent if you're so inclined. But If he tapped the ball backward every time he received it, that wouldn't mean he's any more intelligent. Running at a player and trying to nutmeg him is a high risk/reward action that also takes bravery and foresight.

All things considered, you fail with the risks you're afraid take. Rashford's ability to assess the most dangerous options make him a dangerous player. And that's borne out by the fact he's so productive.

Like Bruno, he can see the thing that will hurt opposition and benefit United most, and should be allowed the leeway to play those percentages.

Below against Liverpool.

Intelligent or unintelligent to attempt to go past Thiago instead of sending Martial and Fred on a 2 vs 1 on the counter.

 

[Godfather]

Good news on his ankle. Hope we give him some rest against Milan. He needs it.

 

[UncleBob]

Good news on his ankle. Hope we give him some rest against Milan. He needs it.

Sounds like he'll miss the Milan match.

Hopefully we'll start him on the bench vs West Ham and that we won't need him, would be good to afford him a bit of rest until the quarter finals against Leicester.

 

[DoomSlayer]

So the fact Rashford has (or maybe now had) the 4th highest goal contributions across Europe must make him a genius.



The point is that every action that doesn't lead to a goal can be considered unintelligent if you're so inclined. But If he tapped the ball backward every time he received it, that wouldn't mean he's any more intelligent. Running at a player and trying to nutmeg him is a high risk/reward action that also takes bravery and foresight.

All things considered, you fail with the risks you're afraid take. Rashford's ability to assess the most dangerous options make him a dangerous player. And that's borne out by the fact he's so productive.

Like Bruno, he can see the thing that will hurt opposition and benefit United most, and should be allowed the leeway to play those percentages.

It's pointless to debate with some people. We have "fans" on YouTube and Twitter, who are angry when Rashford scores or does something good, because they want him sold ASAP. A bunch of total morons and twats.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

It's pointless to debate with some people. We have "fans" on YouTube and Twitter, who are angry when Rashford scores or does something good, because they want him sold ASAP. A bunch of total morons and twats.

Imagine being a fan of a football club that is known for the development of youth and integrating its own players into the first team. And then being angry because a youth product like Marcus Rashford, who has turned out to be a special talent and an even better human being, scores a goal for the club you support.

Sad souls.

 

[charlenefan]

fyi to the idiot the other day who said he's not rated abroad

 

[Brightonian]

Needs the break, it's a blessing in disguise.

But despite being constantly exhausted and carrying injuries this season he is our second most productive player and the fourth most productive in Europe. If you don't rate him, you are mathematically wrong, unless the only three players in world football who you do rate are Lewandowski, Kane and Fernandes. Also worth pointing out, not wanting to sound too much like a dipper, that if you remove Fernandes penalties from the equation, Rashford has significantly more goals+assists than he does.

Also honestly why support United if you don't rate this exciting young player who lives and breathes United, who has so quickly become one of our most important players, who often turns up in games when other players don't, who came back from a potentially career-ending complex back injury less than a year ago, who at the age of 23 already has 80-something goals for United, and who spends his free time campaigning to try and make sure kids living in poverty have food to eat.

It's not that you shouldn't criticise him. He's obviously not playing to the full unstoppable potential that we witnessed before his injury last season. But please, a bit of perspective. Again, if you think he is playing badly against any kind of general standard, you are mathematically wrong.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If you don't rate him, you are mathematically wrong a fecking idiot

Fixed that for you, mate.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Rashford is absolutely brilliant and it is exhausting to see our fans constantly underrating him when they would be wetting themselves with excitement if he played for someone else and we were rumoured to sign him.

With that said I think he is bloody exhausted and needs a couple of weeks off. Let's hope Martial can start playing more like he did last season.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Being pissed off when a player you don’t like scores is some totally batshit crazy logic, clearly.

There is however a logical middle ground where you don’t think a player is, or ever will be, able to perform at the level that matches your aspirations. People can legitimately hold the opinion that Rashford has been given his chance (almost 300 games for club & country), and is scoring slightly worse than once every 3 games.

I don’t think you’ll sell him because he’s on a big juicy contract, a good poster boy, and frankly I don’t think another big club in England or Europe would pay what Utd would demand to do a deal. Plus you have other areas that clearly need more attention.

 

[roonster09]

Being pissed off when a player you don’t like scores is some totally batshit crazy logic, clearly.

There is however a logical middle ground where you don’t think a player is, or ever will be, able to perform at the level that matches your aspirations. People can legitimately hold the opinion that Rashford has been given his chance (almost 300 games for club & country), and is scoring slightly worse than once every 3 games.

I don’t think you’ll sell him because he’s on a big juicy contract, a good poster boy, and frankly I don’t think another big club in England or Europe would pay what Utd would demand to do a deal. Plus you have other areas that clearly need more attention.

Luckily people don't rate players based on that, which lacks any context. Imagine in this age where you have so many stats, still going by goals per game or games per goal stats.