[justboy68]

Talent wise the Dutch league produce better players then the Portuguese league and that had been going on for quite some time.

Also Can you kindly remind me how Sporting Lisbon faired last season?

There is no way you can be serious. Scores of elite players come through the Portuguese league these days. Just think about all the players Porto, Benfica and Sporting have moved on in the last decade. Many of the best players in the game, Ronaldo, Falcao, Di Maria, James and many many more. In fact the more I think about it the more laughable that statement is.

The Portuguese league is much stronger as shown by their results in Europe and the better quality players that come through their league.

 

[ivaldo]

Im excited to see him play centreback for us, that aggression putting the fear of god into Centre forwards. Blackett has proved himself to be capable of first team football so that's 5 centre backs now, once they get settled I can see the back 3 being quite effective.

4/5 of them are pretty damn quick for CBs which should allow us to play a higher line and compress the midfield making it harder to play against us. If we did sign someone like Vidal or Silva to play alongside Herrera then we've got a very mobile team and we can finally see us pressing effectively.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Why is it ridiculous to compare Vidic to Rojo? Has the latter even kicked a ball? I know it will be virtually impossible since Vidic is one of the best center backs in the history of United but why can´t Rojo have an exponential rise in his career?

Sporting isn´t an average side in Portugal. Sporting is a top side in Portugal and Bébé never excelled with us. And Bébé didn´t excell. Bébé had a very good season in a club that avoided relegation in the play offs. Let´s be careful with the words. And you can take mine, since i saw Bébé alot. I doubt you saw Bébé kick a ball.

Rule Number 1 of the Football Forums; ignore devilish.

 

[devilish]

You can put your money where you want but if you want to win it back, it´s better for you to probably study the statistics and historial. Also if you talk about something why not back it with facts and numbers?

Yeah you can admit whatever you want but perhaps your local teams would be better if you started supporting them, instead of acting like a hot shot and being arrogant against supporters who prefer to root for their own local teams even if they aren´t as big or glamorous as United. Sporting is obviously a smaller club than United but we are traditional, respected european club, with alot of history and some relevant results in european competitions. A club which academy is in the top 5 in europe and that has produced two world players of the year in Figo and Ronaldo. The same Ronaldo who came to your "supposed" club and helped write another glorious chapter for United.

My history is kind of complicated and just because I don't support Sliema Wanderers or Birkirkara that doesn't mean I don't help others when I can. Club honors also tell part of the story. The EPL is one of the strongest in the world. That doesn't mean it produces the best talent in the world either. To conclude just because a team may have produced a couple of great players in the past that doesn't mean that its producing them now. United had produced more talent then Sporting would ever dream of doing. However we haven't produced a proper world class player since the class of 92.

Lets agree with disagree on that because we're going out of subject

 

[Rake]

So when do we expect his medical to be completed and this all finalized? Can we expect to see him this weekend, or is it likely to early considering he hasn't even trained with us yet

He arrived late last night so I assume the transfer should be official by the end of the day. If i`m not mistaken if we register him before friday he will be eligible to play this weekend

 

[Sly]

There is no way you can be serious. Scores of elite players come through the Portuguese league these days. Just think about all the players Porto, Benfica and Sporting have moved on in the last decade. Many of the best players in the game, Ronaldo, Falcao, Di Maria, James and many many more. In fact the more I think about it the more laughable that statement is.

Although i agree with part of your post, i think that both the dutch and portuguese league are similiar and on par. We have better results than them in Europe but we belong in the second tier of the european league. I just reacted because it annoys me to see people downgrade less glamorous leagues without having real knowledge of the respective leagues. There´s more life in european football beside the Spanish, English and German leagues.

 

[devilish]

There is no way you can be serious. Scores of elite players come through the Portuguese league these days. Just think about all the players Porto, Benfica and Sporting have moved on in the last decade. Many of the best players in the game, Ronaldo, Falcao, Di Maria, James and many many more. In fact the more I think about it the more laughable that statement is.

The Portuguese league is much stronger as shown by their results in Europe and the better quality players that come through their league.

Di Maria, Falcao and James are Portuguese league products as much as Pogba and Ronaldo were EPL products.

 

[justboy68]

Di Maria, Falcao and James are Portuguese league products as much as Pogba and Ronaldo were EPL products.

Who are all of the players coming out of the Dutch league then? Both produce similar domestic talents. Better players come through the Portuguese league as a gateway into Europe.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Portuguese league is crap because Bebe excelled there.

And Sporting Lisbon is an 'average Portuguese side'.

I heard it all now.

 

[Tomuś]

You can put your money where you want but if you want to win it back, it´s better for you to probably study the statistics and historial. Also if you talk about something why not back it with facts and numbers?

Yeah you can admit whatever you want but perhaps your local teams would be better if you started supporting them, instead of acting like a hot shot and being arrogant against supporters who prefer to root for their own local teams even if they aren´t as big or glamorous as United. Sporting is obviously a smaller club than United but we are traditional, respected european club, with alot of history and some relevant results in european competitions. A club which academy is in the top 5 in europe and that has produced two world players of the year in Figo and Ronaldo. The same Ronaldo who came to your "supposed" club and helped write another glorious chapter for United.

Why do you take his view so personally? AFAIK he didn't belittle Sporting but Primeira Liga. Sporting are indeed a good club. It's easy to support your local team if it's Sporting so I won't take your 'I don't support the glamorous United' as a huge sacrifice as Sporting aren't your Luton Towns of this world but a big club with a fine stadium and name. As far as your league goes, it's in the 3rd tier along with Eredivisie, so below the obvious top tier and the second tier containing Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

Devilish isn't much better with his 'Holland would beat Portugal' argument. Well, Belgium would probably beat England and we can all agree their league is at the very bottom of European football. Also, while I don't think Rojo can ever reach the level Vidic did, he was the crucial part of the best back-four in Brazil and found himself in the best 11. That's as big a compliment as being 'a regular in one of the meanest national defenses in Europe'. We, United fans, all know zilch about Rojo and only saw him in the World Cup. Now if that's any indicator of his talent, we should take positive attitude towards this transfer not a negative one.

 

[Sly]

To conclude just because a team may have produced a couple of great players in the past that doesn't mean that its producing them now. United had produced more talent then Sporting would ever dream of doing. However we haven't produced a proper world class player since the class of 92.

A couple of great players in the past? Sporting keeps producing them on almost yearly basis. Just because you don´t know or lack the knowledge, doesn´t mean that we aren´t producing. And wanna compare the resources between both clubs? What we have been achieving is worthy of praise and that´s why FIFA and UEFA keep giving us awards because of the academy work. The same academy that has United youth team coaches doing internships with us on almost yearly basis. I´d suggest i´d keep your opinion about maltese football and Fergie visits to your island.

 

[devilish]

Who are all of the players coming out of the Dutch league then?

One can only have a look at the Dutch national team to see the talent. They havent produced as much quality players as in the past but they still produce more talent then the big leagues such as Italy

 

[Zoo]

 

[Zoo]

That's a very, very good article, if there's an interest for the article, i'll do the trouble and translate it all to English, Tor-Kristian really knows his stuff.

Yeah if you can thanks.

 

[Sly]

Why do you take his view so personally? AFAIK he didn't belittle Sporting but Primeira Liga. Sporting are indeed a good club. It's easy to support your local team if it's Sporting so I won't take your 'I don't support the glamorous United' as a huge sacrifice as Sporting aren't your Luton Towns of this world but a big club with a fine stadium and name. As far as your league goes, it's in the 3rd tier along with Eredivisie, so below the obvious top tier and the second tier containing Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

Devilish isn't much better with his 'Holland would beat Portugal' argument. Well, Belgium would probably beat England and we can all agree their league is at the very bottom of European football. Also, while I don't think Rojo can ever reach the level Vidic did, he was the crucial part of the best back-four in Brazil and found himself in the best 11. That's as big a compliment as being 'a regular in one of the meanest national defenses in Europe'. We, United fans, all know zilch about Rojo and only saw him in the World Cup. Now if that's any indicator of his talent, we should take positive attitude towards this transfer not a negative one.

I didn´t take so personally, i just reacted and gave my opinion. Of course portuguese league is in the second or third tier. You just have to read my last posts where i acknowledge that. I was merely reacting to the glory hunting assumptions from a certain user who thinks that besides the EPL and other top european leagues, all the other european leagues are crap

 

[justboy68]

One can only have a look at the Dutch national team to see the talent. They havent produced as much quality players as in the past but they still produce more talent then the big leagues such as Italy

As I said Netherlands and Portugal produce similar domestic talents and have similar strength national sides. One bad tournament for Portugal doesn't change that, their recent international tournament record is still similar to Netherlands. Netherlands have benefited from better management I would say. Similar quality domestic talent, better players coming through the Portuguese league as a gateway into Europe.

 

[Sly]

Rule Number 1 of the Football Forums; ignore devilish.

Duly noted mate.

 

[devilish]

A couple of great players in the past? Sporting keeps producing them on almost yearly basis. Just because you don´t know or lack the knowledge, doesn´t mean that we aren´t producing. And wanna compare the resources between both clubs? What we have been achieving is worthy of praise and that´s why FIFA and UEFA keep giving us awards because of the academy work. The same academy that has United youth team coaches doing internships with us on almost yearly basis. I´d suggest i´d keep your opinion about maltese football and Fergie visits to your island.

Its funny how you're comparing your team with teams coming from league being played on a small country with a population of half a million people. Kind of show how biased local fans can be about their players.

 

[Sly]

Its funny how you're comparing your team with teams coming from league being played on a small country with a population of half a million people

Oh but weren´t you calling my club an average club and comparing us in some itens with arguably the third biggest club in Europe United? Can´t i do the same?

 

[SATA]

Too much pointless chatter

Where are the pics of the fecker going to the medical with the white cloth?

 

[devilish]

Oh but weren´t you calling my club an average club and comparing us in some itens with arguably the third biggest club in Europe United? Can´t i do the same?

I've only said that I cant see how Rojo can solve our defensive woes. That's all.

And you should visit Malta. Its shit in football but with a good standard of living and a ridiculous unemployment rate which is much less the Portugal and Spain. I

 

[Sly]

Too much pointless chatter

Where are the pics of the fecker going to the medical with the white cloth?

Yeah i apologize. I´ll end the off topic. Sorry devilish, if Rojo does bad because he comes from a crap league, you can send him back. No refunds though

 

[Sly]

I've only said that I cant see how Rojo can solve our defensive woes. That's all.

And you should visit Malta. Its shit in football but with a good standard of living and a ridiculous unemployment rate.

I already did mate and i love it. It´s a very good place. Anyways sorry if i was too aggressive and let´s end the off topic. Hope Rojo does well at United. Same with Nani with us.

 

[devilish]

I already did mate and i love it. It´s a very good place. Anyways sorry if i was too aggressive and let´s end the off topic. Hope Rojo does well at United. Same with Nani with us.

No worries. Maybe I was aggressive too and in that case I apologise (reminds me of an ancient argument I had with another great poster Antohan a couple of years back)

Returning on Rojo my point is that while there are plenty of positives in the guy I fail to see him sorting the defensive problems all by himself. Im more concerned about the magnitude of the job (ie becoming the leader and focal point of a defense which just lost 3 flagships) rather then Rojos talent.

 

[Tomuś]

I didn´t take so personally, i just reacted and gave my opinion. Of course portuguese league is in the second or third tier. You just have to read my last posts where i acknowledge that. I was merely reacting to the glory hunting assumptions from a certain user who thinks that besides the EPL and other top european leagues, all the other european leagues are crap

They mostly are, aren't they? Doesn't mean there are no decent teams in there. Eredivisie is sort of crap yet you'll find some cracking names, iconic clubs like Ajax or to a lesser extent PSV and Feyenoord. Primeira is pretty much the same. Crap league (or mediocre for your convenience) with a few good teams in it (Benfica, Porto, Sporting).

It doesn't mean you're a crap fan if you follow such leagues or that Sporting are crap.

 

[devilish]

They mostly are, aren't they? Doesn't mean there are no decent teams in there. Eredivisie is sort of crap yet you'll find some cracking names, iconic clubs like Ajax or to a lesser extent PSV and Feyenoord. Primeira is pretty much the same. Crap league (or mediocre for your convenience) with a few good teams in it (Benfica, Porto, Sporting).

It doesn't mean you're a crap fan if you follow such leagues or that Sporting are crap.

I dont think that they are crap and actually Holland had proved it so. Clubs like United need to get off their high horse and start searching for players in such leagues just like clubs like Juventus do. For example Strootman would have been a much better option for us then Fellaini.


My concern with Rojo is not that he's shite but simply because the magnitude of the job may be too big for him. As said before if we're planning to use him as backup for Shaw then I am confident he'll make it. For all we know he may even send Shaw on the bench. However if we're expecting him to become our anchor in defense then the gap may be too big for him. FFS the job is bigger then the one given to Vidic when he signed with us. At least Vidic could rely on the likes of Gaz, Wes and Rio. All we have now is 4-5 injury prone defenders and Luke Shaw

@Sly I wonder what he thinks about this

 

[Sly]

Returning on Rojo my point is that while there are plenty of positives in the guy I fail to see him sorting the defensive problems all by himself. Im more concerned about the magnitude of the job (ie becoming the leader and focal point of a defense which just lost 3 flagships) rather then Rojos talent.

Well i agree with that. How can you pass this transition phases smoothly when you just lost two references in Vidic and Ferdinand? To help the existing circunstancies you also have a new manager. It will take time. Time that you simply don´t possess due to the nature of United being a very big club, with a very demanding fan base. He´s not going to sort all the defensive problems by himself but he is going to be a big help with his versatility, physical attributes and ability. Like i said previously Van Gaal will play a pivotal role in his adaptation and evolution.

 

[devilish]

Well i agree with that. How can you pass this transition phases smoothly when you just lost two references in Vidic and Ferdinand? To help the existing circunstancies you also have a new manager. It will take time. Time that you simply don´t possess due to the nature of United being a very big club, with a very demanding fan base. He´s not going to sort all the defensive problems by himself but he is going to be a big help with his versatility, physical attributes and ability. Like i said previously Van Gaal will play a pivotal role in his adaptation and evolution.

What worries me is that we're expecting a Maldini or at a lesser extent a Rio (ie someone whose a born leader and would just fix everything single handidly) and from what I saw, Rojo is not like that. Mind he's a technically gifted and tough tackling defender with pace. But in my opinion he's still work in progress just like the rest of our defenders.

 

[Tomuś]

I dont think that they are crap and actually Holland had proved it so. Clubs like United need to get off their high horse and start searching for players in such leagues just like clubs like Juventus do. For example Strootman would have been a much better option for us then Fellaini.

My concern with Rojo is not that he's shite but simply because the magnitude of the job may be too big for him. As said before if we're planning to use him as backup for Shaw then I am confident he'll make it. For all we know he may even send Shaw on the bench. However if we're expecting him to become our anchor in defense then the gap may be too big for him. FFS the job is bigger then the one given to Vidic when he signed with us. At least Vidic could rely on the likes of Gaz, Wes and Rio. All we have now is 4-5 injury prone defenders and Luke Shaw

There are good players in those crap leagues just like there are good teams out there. Didn't Strootman play for PSV, team I highlighted as not crap from the water of crap teams? The league is crap but there are some decent players in the less crap or good teams that can prove their worth in the top leagues/teams.

As for Rojo, I don't think anyone believe he's going to be our Vidic from day 1. He's there as another body in defense and a decent first-team player for the time being. He fetched £16m which in todays market is a reasonable price for a talented player coming off a great World Cup performances. If you've got bad feelings about this one, just say so. Nobody says he's our saviour and he wasn't bought to be one. Expectations like this cause our fans to give the players hard time in latter stages of their careers. Signing him makes perfect sense, we've got a new CB as well as a good cover for left-back. Without him we'd have Reece James or Ashley Young (with all due respect as he had a good pre-season) covering for Shaw. What's not to like?

I'm done with this as I'm far from an expert on Rojo.

 

[Sly]

They mostly are, aren't they? Doesn't mean there are no decent teams in there. Eredivisie is sort of crap yet you'll find some cracking names, iconic clubs like Ajax or to a lesser extent PSV and Feyenoord. Primeira is pretty much the same. Crap league (or mediocre for your convenience) with a few good teams in it (Benfica, Porto, Sporting).

It doesn't mean you're a crap fan if you follow such leagues or that Sporting are crap.

Well i disagree. But people have different expectations of course. I´m 30 years of age and have been following our football since i was a little boy. I´m from Lisbon and the vast majority of my family are Sporting fans. There was an obvious family influence. The standart of football isn´t as good as the top european leagues (depending on the matches of course, games like Sunderland against Stoke are way worse than any Braga vs Guimarães match) but i wouldn´t call it crap. But i understand your point, i would just use other words to discribe the leagues. I think it´s just too depreciative. Just out of curiosity have you watched many matches of the portuguese/dutch leagues without the top clubs to make that claim?

 

[Tomuś]

Well i disagree. But people have different expectations of course. I´m 30 years of age and have been following our football since i was a little boy. I´m from Lisbon and the vast majority of my family are Sporting fans. There was an obvious family influence. The standart of football isn´t as good as the top european leagues (depending on the matches of course, games like Sunderland against Stoke are way worse than any Braga vs Guimarães match) but i wouldn´t call it crap. But i understand your point, i would just use other words to discribe the leagues. I think it´s just too depreciative. Just out of curiosity have you watched many matches of the portuguese/dutch leagues without the top clubs to make that claim?

About 10 a season each.

 

[Kostur]

Just read a great article about third party ownership, Rojo and Doyen Group. Shit's crazy.

 

[Sly]

About 10 a season each.

Fair enough. I understood your points, i would just probably use other words to discribe the leagues. But your opinion is as good as mine in what concerns the personal tastes regarding the leagues. I guess for an Italian their league must be very good and for me i just don´t like that brand of football and rarely watch any game.

 

[devilish]

There are good players in those crap leagues just like there are good teams out there. Didn't Strootman play for PSV, team I highlighted as not crap from the water of crap teams? The league is crap but there are some decent players in the less crap or good teams that can prove their worth in the top leagues/teams.

As for Rojo, I don't think anyone believe he's going to be our Vidic from day 1. He's there as another body in defense and a decent first-team player for the time being. He fetched £16m which in todays market is a reasonable price for a talented player coming off a great World Cup performances. If you've got bad feelings about this one, just say so. Nobody says he's our saviour and he wasn't bought to be one. Expectations like this cause our fans to give the players hard time in latter stages of their careers. Signing him makes perfect sense, we've got a new CB as well as a good cover for left-back. Without him we'd have Reece James or Ashley Young (with all due respect as he had a good pre-season) covering for Shaw. What's not to like?

I'm done with this as I'm far from an expert on Rojo.

I believe that the fans (and sometimes even the coaching staff) of clubs at the best leagues tend to underestimate the smaller leagues. I remember the popular concept by EPL fans a few years back was that La Liga was a 2 race horse league with Barcelona/Real being the top dogs and the others being shit. That concept swiftly changed when Athletic Bilbao schooled SAF's team in the UEFA cup. Mind I stress on the phrase clubs coming from the best leagues. I remember quite vividly AC Milan fans/club coaches being absolutely shocked that VG Ajax had managed to dominate them in the CL. The shock was so big that AC Milan just went full muppet mode and went on buying half Ajax team in the 2-3 years following that defeat (Reizeger, Davids, Bogarde, Kluivert)

 

[Sly]

My concern with Rojo is not that he's shite but simply because the magnitude of the job may be too big for him. As said before if we're planning to use him as backup for Shaw then I am confident he'll make it. For all we know he may even send Shaw on the bench. However if we're expecting him to become our anchor in defense then the gap may be too big for him. FFS the job is bigger then the one given to Vidic when he signed with us. At least Vidic could rely on the likes of Gaz, Wes and Rio. All we have now is 4-5 injury prone defenders and Luke Shaw

@Sly I wonder what he thinks about this

I think he won´t be backup LB for you guys. I doubt Van Gaal after all the hassle and the hefty price tag (plus Nani exchange) is going to use him as backup for Shaw. Since United´s defence is clearly struggling, he will put Rojo as CB. We will see how he goes. I think he can be a vocal leader and organize the defence. But it´s too soon for him. He can´t just enter and do that. There are other players with more years and fully adapted at United. What Rojo will instantly improve you is in terms of aerial ability and United´s defence will have a more aggressive stance. His contribution in set pieces is also an important asset.

 

[Invictus]

That's a very, very good article, if there's an interest for the article, i'll do the trouble and translate it all to English, Tor-Kristian really knows his stuff.

Please do.

 

[Amadaeus]

I believe his addition means that we will continue using the 1-3-5-2 system. In a back four I do not believe he is better than Jones, Smalling or Shaw in their respective role. But, he may surprise me when he starts playing regularly for United. As a wingback or fullback, I hope he can become as influential as Zabaleta is at City in that position.

 

[UnitedBoy]

is this the guy who played LM for argentina in the world cup? If it is, he impressed me massively back then.

 

[Sly]

In a back four I do not believe he is better than Jones, Smalling in their respective role.

Why? I´m genuinely curious.

 

[devilish]

I think he won´t be backup LB for you guys. I doubt Van Gaal after all the hassle and the hefty price tag (plus Nani exchange) is going to use him as backup for Shaw. Since United´s defence is clearly struggling, he will put Rojo as CB. We will see how he goes. I think he can be a vocal leader and organize the defence. But it´s too soon for him. He can´t just enter and do that. There are other players with more years and fully adapted at United. What Rojo will instantly improve you is in terms of aerial ability and United´s defence will have a more aggressive stance. His contribution in set pieces is also an important asset.

In my opinion he should be bedded slowly as backup and then become first teamer at his own pace. Probably he would end up first teamer after a couple of weeks/months just as Evra did with United (we had the then fans favorite Heinze in that role). I wouldn't exclude if he ends up sending Shaw on the bench which kind of show that I dont see Rojo as crap.

What I am totally against is that he's seen as the leader/savior of our defense just as Stam and Rio were in SAF's reign. First of all I dont think that his maturity as a player is up to that level yet. Secondly because I believe that Rojo's task is actually more difficult than that of both Stam and Rio was when they joined United. Stam had Johnsen, Irwin and Gaz with him. Rio's task was slightly more challenging than that of Stam but he could still rely on Gaz. This defense has no leaders in it and is mostly made up of injury prone players