Marcelo Bielsa on ManUtd style of play - "The more simple the football is, the better it is.

[Borys]

And lack of success in UCL showed our simple style of football that was worked over by more tactical opponents rather easily. Hell the 2 UCL he did win (in 26 years), first was one in last 2 minutes with 2 freak goals (after BM pounded us all game) and 2nd was a JT penalty away from being lost. The point is, there was an element of luck in both and it wasn't a controlled dominant performance like Barca or Real Madrid.

So while fundamentally Bielsa is not wrong, fans are also over-simplifying his words too much.

That is a good point actually.

Regarding the style of play vs the results, it's true we are scoring a lot of goals and have great unbeaten re ord, but in general we've been poor against top level teams when it really matters (in the cups). We do well against mid to low table teams.

 

[Gehrman]

I just want Saf style football. We were mostly exciting to watch. It wasn't just because we won things, it's because we won in style. It's so rare I ever enjoy games anymore. When was the last time we saw goals like RVP's when he was here?

 

[roonster09]

Downplaying SAF or simplifying what he did is hilarious to watch. Anyone who never watched his teams would think he is some Harry Redknapp with better team.

 

[wolvored]

You're kind of falsified your own statement here. We need to win major trophies next year in order for Ole to prove his tactical acumen, yet we have to replace half our outfield team?

No Im saying better players will improve the team even more. Without this if we dont we will never win the Premier or Champions league and this season will be as good as it gets, 2nd. For Ole to move on this is what he needs imo.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He's right.

But it comes down to the Cruyff quotation posted above.

It's very hard to play simple football effectively at the highest level - not least over time.

I don't think we're quite there yet - but if that's the direction we're moving in, we should all rejoice.

And I don't think Bielsa is blowing smoke up Ole's arse. I think it's a genuine compliment - but he's obviously being polite and nice and whatnot too. I doubt Bielsa considers United the finished article in terms of keeping it simple (but great). But, yeah, Bielsa does know a thing or two about football.

 

[Sweet Square]

And lack of success in UCL showed our simple style of football that was worked over by more tactical opponents rather easily. Hell the 2 UCL he did win (in 26 years), first was one in last 2 minutes with 2 freak goals (after BM pounded us all game) and 2nd was a JT penalty away from being lost. The point is, there was an element of luck in both and it wasn't a controlled dominant performance like Barca or Real Madrid.

So while fundamentally Bielsa is not wrong, fans are also over-simplifying his words too much.

The last team to win both the PL and CL in the same season was the 08 United team. I think people underestimate just how difficult is it challenge on all fronts in the PL. Plus you then have to add in the context of the finals. Real most dominant performances have come under Zidane who no one talks about as some tactical genius(For some reason the guy is very underrated)and was never against teams like the Barca 09 and 11 teams(Maybe the greatest club side of all time).

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

This is errant nonsense.

Fergie's greatest strength wasn't tactics but my goodness you'd think he just told the squad to "go out and play football" every match. Of course his football was complicated. It all is at the highest levels!

In his 2nd biography he said he’s never spent so much time in the video room like in 12-13. People seem to be under the impression that just because he didnt handle day to day training, he wasn’t top tier tactically.

His record in Europe often get brought up as a blemish against him, yet we were hamstrung by both British football stunted tactical development post Heysel and the foreigners rule in the first few years in the CL. From 97 until his retirement, bar the odd terrible campaigns like 04/05 or 11/12, we were either going to finals, winning it, or losing to finalists/champions (sometimes in controversial circumstances e.g Porto 03/04, Bayern 09/10, Real 12/13). That’s a more than respectable record and nowhere near deserve the aspersions cast his way. In a parallel universe, United might well have defeated Porto, Deportivo and Monaco to win it in 03/04, or capitalized on the dominance in first 15 min in 08/09 final to become the first team to defend the CL, such is the tight margin at the highest level.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

The last team to win both the PL and CL in the same season was the 08 United team. I think people underestimate just how difficult is it challenge on all fronts in the PL.

Way to skew the argument.

If I am blunt, I would even argue we've been rarely dominant against top UCL opposition even in Fergie days. I am talking total and controlled dominance against the likes of BM, Barca, RM, Milan in their days. We usually relied on grit and never give up attitude which took us far. But often times we ran into opponents that were a cut above and we looked, for lack of a better word, amateurish. Fergie's lack of tactical know how was never a problem in EPL. English teams never were on the same level as continental teams in UCL until the decline of Italy started.

 

[roonster09]

In his 2nd biography he said he’s never spent so much time in the video room like in 12-13. People seem to be under the impression that just because he didnt handle day to day training, he wasn’t top tier tactically.

His record in Europe often get brought up as a blemish against him, yet we were hamstrung by both British football stunted tactical development post Heysel and the foreigners rule in the first few years in the CL. From 97 until his retirement, bar the odd terrible campaigns like 04/05 or 11/12, we were either going to finals, winning it, or losing to finalists/champions (sometimes in controversial circumstances e.g Porto 03/04, Bayern 09/10, Real 12/13). That’s a more than respectable record and nowhere near deserve the aspersions cast his way. In a parallel universe, United might well have defeated Porto, Deportivo and Monaco to win it in 03/04, or capitalized on the dominance in first 15 min in 08/09 final to become the first team to defend the CL, such is the tight margin at the highest level.

Exactly. Hysel ban till 90 then foreigner rule till 94 or 95 played huge role too.

I think from 96 we played with no restrictions, from that time, in 17 years he won 2 CLs and made 2 more finals. Tactical genius Pep made 2 finals in 13 years, tactical genius Jose made 2 finals in 18-19 years.

If I'm not wrong, only Zidane and Ancelotti won more CLs and only Ancelotti made as many CL finals. (Zidane will beat everyone anyways).

From BBC

Did Bosman help Manchester United win the Champions League?

British clubs pre-Bosman found themselves at a huge disadvantage in European competitions, because Uefa decreed that Welsh and Scottish players counted as foreigners under their "three-plus-two" rule.

That meant that United, for example, had to make wholesale changes to their normal line-up when playing in Europe - most memorably when Alex Ferguson brought English goalkeeper Gary Walsh in for the Danish Peter Schmeichel in the 4-0 thrashing by Barcelona in 1994-5.

When clubs were suddenly freed to play all the EU players they wanted, Sir Alex Ferguson was at last able to play his first-choice XI in Europe.

Only five of the 13 players who featured in United's 1999 Champions League final win over Bayern Munich were English.

Before the Bosman ruling, that team could never have set foot on the pitch.

 

[Sweet Square]

Way to skew the argument.

If I am blunt, I would even argue we've been rarely dominant against top UCL opposition even in Fergie days. I am talking total and controlled dominance against the likes of BM, Barca, RM, Milan in their days.

What era are you talking about ?

The last time BM made back to back finals they lost the first one against Chelsea in 2012(I'm pretty sure you have to go back to the early 70's for the last time Bayren scored more than 2 goals in a european final). Last season was one of their most dominant until they got to the final which they won by a single goal.

RM are the first team to win 3 CL back to back. Yet their first CL title in 2015/16 included a 2-0 way lost against Wolfburg in the quaters and getting past City in the semis by a single goal. The second CL in 2016/17 included a semi final away lost against Atletico and their third and final CL title in 2017/18 included a 3-1 away lost again Juventus(In 17/18 campaign Madrid won their quarter final and semi final tie by a single goal).

Barca under Pep firstly never made back to back CL finals. Their first win in 09 they needed a massive helping hand from the ref to get past Chelsea. In 2013 Barca lost away to Arsenal and really Arsenal had a great chance to beat them if it wasn't again for a insane referee decision.

And finally just for reference I'm pretty sure United from 08 to 09 didn't lose a single knock out game until the 09 final against Barca. Fergie was one win away from being the first manager to retain the CL and to not lose a single knock out game for two seasons in a row.

We usually relied on grit and never give up attitude which took us far. But often times we ran into opponents that were a cut above and we looked, for lack of a better word, amateurish.

Now might be the time for you to watch the 99 CL run again.

 

[Hugh Jass]

What era are you talking about ?

The last time BM made back to back finals they lost the first one against Chelsea in 2013(I'm pretty sure you have to go back to early 70's for the last time Bayren scored more than 2 goals in a european final). Last season was one of their most domient until they got to the final which they won by a single goal.

RM are the first team to win 3 CL back to back. Yet their first CL title in 2015/16 included a 2-0 way lost against Wolfburg in the quaters and getting past City in the semis by a single goal. The second CL in 2016/17 included a semi final away lost against Atletico. Their third and final CL title in 2017/18 included a 3-1 away lost again Juventus(In their quarter final and semi final Madrid won the tie by a single goal).

Barca under Pep firstly never made back to back CL finals. Their first win in 09 they needing a massively helping hand from the ref to get past Chelsea. In 2013 Barca lost away to Arsenal and really Arsenal had a great chance to beat them if it wasn't again for a insane referee decision.

And finally just for reference I'm pretty sure United from 08 to 09 didn't lose a single knock out game until 09 final against Barca. Fergie was one win away from being the first manager to retain the CL and to not lose a single knock out game for two seasons in a row.


Now might be the time for you to watch the 99 CL run again.

Awful pity we did not win. That bloody eto goal ruined it really.

 

[alexthelion]

We score great goals and plenty of them but our play is certainly not that edible, their whole play is great, that is the difference.

City's play is great?

No it's not, it's boring.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

What era are you talking about ?

The last time BM made back to back finals they lost the first one against Chelsea in 2012(I'm pretty sure you have to go back to the early 70's for the last time Bayren scored more than 2 goals in a european final). Last season was one of their most dominant until they got to the final which they won by a single goal.

RM are the first team to win 3 CL back to back. Yet their first CL title in 2015/16 included a 2-0 way lost against Wolfburg in the quaters and getting past City in the semis by a single goal. The second CL in 2016/17 included a semi final away lost against Atletico and their third and final CL title in 2017/18 included a 3-1 away lost again Juventus(In 17/18 campaign Madrid won their quarter final and semi final tie by a single goal).

Barca under Pep firstly never made back to back CL finals. Their first win in 09 they needed a massive helping hand from the ref to get past Chelsea. In 2013 Barca lost away to Arsenal and really Arsenal had a great chance to beat them if it wasn't again for a insane referee decision.

And finally just for reference I'm pretty sure United from 08 to 09 didn't lose a single knock out game until the 09 final against Barca. Fergie was one win away from being the first manager to retain the CL and to not lose a single knock out game for two seasons in a row.


Now might be the time for you to watch the 99 CL run again.

Remind me a game against Barca, RM, BM in last 20 years that we completely dominated? I am talking total and controlled domination, not simply squeaking out a win. Even in 08 against Barcelona SF we had a bus parked in both legs, what are you talking about?

 

[Sweet Square]

Awful pity we did not win. That bloody eto goal ruined it really.

Was such a gut punch. The only positive was I got massively pissed afterwards so I don't really remember all of it.

Also it's more painful because it really should have been chelsea in the final. Which we would have won easily imo.

 

[Sweet Square]

Remind me a game against Barca, RM, BM in last 20 years that we completely dominated? I am talking total and controlled domination, not simply squeaking out a win. Even in 08 against Barcelona SF we had a bus parked in both legs, what are you talking about?

You know after the 1999 final Fergie only played against Bayren a total of 4 times(Two groups matches in the early 2000's)and a quarter final leg in 2010(We lost the away leg 2-1 and won the home leg 3-2, a late Robben goal put them through on away goals).

I've told you the guy was one game away from not losing a single knock game for two years and you think him not beating Bayren in the group stages of the 2003 CL is somehow a meaningful point about his european record.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

You know after the 1999 final Fergie only played against Bayren a total of 4 times(Two groups matches in the early 2000's)and a quarter final leg in 2010(We lost the away leg 2-1 and won the home leg 3-2, a late Robben goal put them through on away goals). Yet this is you want to judge Fergie european record. Again I've told you the guy was one game away from not losing a single knock game for two years.

Way to dodge the actual question with a smiley to start. Thanks for nothing.

 

[Sweet Square]

Way to dodge the actual question with a smiley to start. Thanks for nothing.

Spoiler

 

[OrcaFat]

Sounded like a straight up compliment to me. He is not duplicitous this guy, it is against his principles. If Ole gets the boot, I would love to have Bielsa here. He is supercool.

Also he was pretty much saying we don’t have the players to play another way which is damn-straight correct.

 

[united_99]

Remind me a game against Barca, RM, BM in last 20 years that we completely dominated? I am talking total and controlled domination, not simply squeaking out a win. Even in 08 against Barcelona SF we had a bus parked in both legs, what are you talking about?

You are on a great agenda here. Apart from very few games good teams in Europe don’t dominate the other totally or completely. When we lost in the past to BM (2010) or RM (2013) it was anything but total and complete domination.
In 2000/2003 for example RM were better than us and deservedly won the ties, but even that wasn’t a total and complete domination, what a load of crap your posts are turning into. We went unbeaten in Europe in 99 and 2008 plus won our domestic leagues, this is more than good and dominant enough for me.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The very dominant Barcelona of 09-11 squeaked through after a scandalous referee performance vs Chelsea in 09, was dominated by United until a moment of brilliance from Eto’o completely against the run of play allowed them to start playing keep ball, until Rio Ferdinand let Messi of all people beat him to a header and ended the game. The next year they got spanked by Inter and ended up eliminated, in 10/11 they lost 1-2 at the Emirates before winning 3-1 at home due to another ludicrous referee decision (RvP sent off for celebrating his goal), won 1-0 at the Bernabeu in the first leg of the semi due to a Messi solo wonder goal before drawing 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg.

This is a team widely considered as one of, if not the best CL team of all time. Almost as if European ties are often cagey afffairs decided by moments of brilliance or controversy, and nigh on impossible to consistently dominate opponents who qualify for knockout fixtures.

 

[united_99]

The very dominant Barcelona of 09-11 squeaked through after a scandalous referee performance vs Chelsea in 09, was dominated by United until a moment of brilliance from Eto’o completely against the run of play allowed them to start playing keep ball, until Rio Ferdinand let Messi of all people beat him to a header and ended the game. The next year they got spanked by Inter and ended up eliminated, in 10/11 they lost 1-2 at the Emirates before winning 3-1 at home due to another ludicrous referee decision (RvP sent off for celebrating his goal), won 1-0 at the Bernabeu in the first leg of the semi due to a Messi solo wonder goal before drawing 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg.

This is a team widely considered as one of, if not the best CL team of all time. Almost as if European ties are often cagey afffairs decided by moments of brilliance or controversy, and nigh on impossible to consistently dominate opponents who qualify for knockout fixtures.

Don’t forget the Pepe red card in 2011.

 

[OrcaFat]

The very dominant Barcelona of 09-11 squeaked through after a scandalous referee performance vs Chelsea in 09, was dominated by United until a moment of brilliance from Eto’o completely against the run of play allowed them to start playing keep ball, until Rio Ferdinand let Messi of all people beat him to a header and ended the game. The next year they got spanked by Inter and ended up eliminated, in 10/11 they lost 1-2 at the Emirates before winning 3-1 at home due to another ludicrous referee decision (RvP sent off for celebrating his goal), won 1-0 at the Bernabeu in the first leg of the semi due to a Messi solo wonder goal before drawing 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg.

This is a team widely considered as one of, if not the best CL team of all time. Almost as if European ties are often cagey afffairs decided by moments of brilliance or controversy, and nigh on impossible to consistently dominate opponents who qualify for knockout fixtures.

That United game was just as you said. A mate texted me just before the Barca goal saying “all too easy for United”. Became suddenly very difficult after the goal.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Don’t forget the Pepe red card in 2011.

Tbf that was a very reckless challenge by him even though Alves’s acting was top notch. I still remember watching that live and being horrified at the sound of the supposed contact until replay shows Pepe connects with the ball instead of Alves’s ankle. If the ref didn’t get a clear view of that it was very easy to be conned.

 

[Idxomer]

Just a fancy way of saying your team relies on individual brilliance.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

The very dominant Barcelona of 09-11 squeaked through after a scandalous referee performance vs Chelsea in 09, was dominated by United until a moment of brilliance from Eto’o completely against the run of play allowed them to start playing keep ball, until Rio Ferdinand let Messi of all people beat him to a header and ended the game. The next year they got spanked by Inter and ended up eliminated, in 10/11 they lost 1-2 at the Emirates before winning 3-1 at home due to another ludicrous referee decision (RvP sent off for celebrating his goal), won 1-0 at the Bernabeu in the first leg of the semi due to a Messi solo wonder goal before drawing 1-1 at home in the 2nd leg.

This is a team widely considered as one of, if not the best CL team of all time. Almost as if European ties are often cagey afffairs decided by moments of brilliance or controversy, and nigh on impossible to consistently dominate opponents who qualify for knockout fixtures.

Barca ran rings around us in both UCL finals and also the SF in 2008. You guys should take off your red tinted glasses.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Barca ran rings around us in both UCL finals and also the SF in 2008. You guys should take off your red tinted glasses.

Or maybe you are dead set on your view that you would allow nothing to the contrary despite a litany of evidence to the opposite. We did get thoroughly outclassed in 2011, but both 08/09 were fairly close affairs decided by moments of brilliance. Our counterattacking 4-5-1 during those years in Europe hardly lent itself to dominating possession so if you judge dominance on that term then fair enough, but there are enough people who don’t see it that way regardless of being United fan or not. When we spanked Schalke 4-1 at home with our second string in 2011 we ended the game with less possession than them.

 

[Hugh Jass]

We were humiliated in 2011 but 2009 could have been different. On another night we win that match, which makes it so bitter.

I remember John Higgins the snooker player saying he fell in depression losing against Selby and Williams by a frame or two i think it was. But when Judd hammered him, he was not too bothered. Same with me in 2009. On another night we win that match. So it is bitter as feck. With 2011 we were well beaten and had no chance.

 

[Sweet Square]

Just a reminder but we ripped Barca open a number of times in 08



Could have been 3-0 up in the first half.

 

[Brightonian]

From anyone else this would probably be an backhanded compliment. But you know from Bielsa he actually means it. I agree, too. One of my favourite teams to watch over the last decade or so was Klopp's Dortmund and what they did was 'simple' too, in the same way.

 

[Acheron]

He wants the United job, that's all there is to it.

 

[RoyH1]

From someone like Mourinho or Klopp that would seem like a backhanded compliment, but knowing Bielsa he probably means it when he says it.
I think we match up well against Leeds, I expect us to win this one comfortably.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Wimbledon of the 90s mastered the art of football.

But really what’s Biesla going to say. Ask him to talk about Mourinho at his most defensive and whatever he says will still sound nice.

 

[gerdm07]

We finished 2nd under Mourinho. I want to see regular trophies won before you can say anythings a success. Peps tactics still way out in front at the moment.

3rd last season and 2nd this season. That's better than anything Mou has done in the past 5 seasons. It's pretty easy to argue Ole is a better manager than Mou at this moment.

 

[Threesus]

We finished 2nd under Mourinho. I want to see regular trophies won before you can say anythings a success. Peps tactics still way out in front at the moment.

Entirely due to DDG’s brilliance. He was the sole difference between us finishing seventh and us finishing second. The underlying metrics support that and that’s why he was in the FIFPRO world 11 I believe, even though we didn’t win anything.

I agree that we need to win the Europa league this season to add the gloss. A nice Chelsea like demolition of Arsenal in the EL final will be very welcome, assuming we get past Roma.

 

[Jezpeza]

Entirely due to DDG’s brilliance. He was the sole difference between us finishing seventh and us finishing second. The underlying metrics support that and that’s why he was in the FIFPRO world 11 I believe, even though we didn’t win anything.

I agree that we need to win the Europa league this season to add the gloss. A nice Chelsea like demolition of Arsenal in the EL final will be very welcome, assuming we get past Roma.

arsenal are the sort who will finish 14th in the league then shithouse us in the final much rather play villarreal

 

[Reapersoul20]

I just want Saf style football. We were mostly exciting to watch. It wasn't just because we won things, it's because we won in style. It's so rare I ever enjoy games anymore. When was the last time we saw goals like RVP's when he was here?

I mean Cavani scored a diving header 2 weeks ago, what do you want

 

[calodo2003]

You can equate it to cuisine / restaurants.

Gussied up fusion with multiple disparate parts, constantly evolving - trendy, flashy, not for everyone.

Simple classics executed with consistency with measured changes - longer lasting, wider, more durable appeal.

A lot of it comes down to taste.

 

[NK86]

And lack of success in UCL showed our simple style of football that was worked over by more tactical opponents rather easily. Hell the 2 UCL he did win (in 26 years), first was one in last 2 minutes with 2 freak goals (after BM pounded us all game) and 2nd was a JT penalty away from being lost. The point is, there was an element of luck in both and it wasn't a controlled dominant performance like Barca or Real Madrid.

So while fundamentally Bielsa is not wrong, fans are also over-simplifying his words too much.

If that was the case, then Pep must not be a great master tactician either, because apart from his all-conquering Barca team which had prime Messi, Iniesta, Xavi to name but a few, he didn't even reach the final of the CL. This with a Bayern team that has won a CL almost immediately after he left and a City team which is basically comprising of all the players Pep has asked for.

Under Fergie we reached 3 finals in 4 consecutive CL campaigns. How many teams can boast of that?

While others may be simplifying, you are taking it the other way and simply diminishing the performance of our team in Europe under SAF.

 

[gajender]

Just a reminder but we ripped Barca open a number of times in 08



Could have been 3-0 up in the first half.

Not to mention Ronaldo missed a penalty in First leg as well . It was a thoroughly professional performance in semifinals which seem to be wrongly clubbed and underplayed due to what happened afterwards in two finals later against the same opponents.
We were noway outplayed against Barcelona in those semifinals and deserved to go through on balance of play.

 

[calodo2003]

Sounded like a straight up compliment to me. He is not duplicitous this guy, it is against his principles. If Ole gets the boot, I would love to have Bielsa here. He is supercool.

Also he was pretty much saying we don’t have the players to play another way which is damn-straight correct.

Absolutely was a compliment.