Did they sit comfortably higher up the pitch against teams who transition play quickly with quick players in attack? Any CB can play high up the pitch if there's no threat in return.
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
So we’ve finally caught up with the famed Everton data science backed transfer approach!
And the rest like Leicester, Liverpool and City, who we fell miles behind with a outdated approach.So we’ve finally caught up with the famed Everton data science backed transfer approach!
I think it's fair to say City, Chelsea and Spurs all have quick players who transition defence to attack quickly yeah. Villa & Leeds were heralded all season for their fast paced attacking too.
I agree. Basically any team who got any consistent value for money over the last ten years has clearly been utilising data and picking players based on what the team is lacking from that standpoint. With our big budget and draw for almost any player this will be a beautiful thing when it all finally clicks into place on the pitch. Much better than just going out buying names.
It's absolutely fair and City and Leeds under Guardiola and Bielsa have consistently played a higher line both on the ball and off the ball to compress the pitch which also helps when it comes to pressing high/counter pressing.
I don't think you've understood my point at all. I'm fully aware of the benefits of it which is why I strongly advocate one of our goalkeepers over the other.
It's not just a sweeping issue if your CBs can't defend the channels in 1v1s high up the pitch. It's the reason we play reactive football with the space between the backline, double pivot and the forwards being too vast.
Not getting ahead of myself here or even saying the Varane interest is really substantial but I'm already seeing the benefits of this new structure already.
Seasons ago we would milk the feck out of 1 signing, waiting until they were official and confirmed before moving to the next target. Within a day of reports for agreement of Sancho, we're engaging in serious talks for Varane. We already seem much more efficient.
Seasons ago we would milk the feck out of 1 signing, waiting until they were official and confirmed before moving to the next target. Within a day of reports for agreement of Sancho, we're engaging in serious talks for Varane. We already seem much more efficient.
I literally gave 5 examples of games against teams with fast attackers who transition quickly where we were bold, went 1v1 high up the pitch at times and defended well. We can do it and playing deep was a bigger reflection on the goalkeeper than the centre backs. That's not to say we shouldn't improve on Lindelof because we should but my point is if we sign Varane but play DDG we'll end up defending deep again whereas if we sign Varane and play Henderson we will continue with the higher line and pressing onto teams more.
Did we maintain a high line off the ball? The only game I remember where we did that was against Leeds at home, where we could've scored 8 or 9, but could've conceded 4 or 5 easily too. It's why Solskjaer is reported to want a CB who can dominate the wide spaces solo, without midfield/fullback assistance.
In those games? Mostly yes, we were a good 10-15 yards further up the pitch than we had been previously and taking more risks in and out possession, pressing considerably better and winning the ball higher up the pitch. There were spells, notably last 25 minutes or so at City where we dropped back but that was pretty natural in the circumstances.
I agree with signing a more mobile centre back, particularly someone like Varane who is better than Lindelof aerially as well as across the ground but genuinely the choice of goalkeeper is far more important to our game than the new defender. The difference it made with the denfenders being comfortable and confident in front of Henderson was startling compared with DDG.
Absolutely. When Ajax started playing "total football", one of the most important aspects in defending was the keeper being able to"sweep" and the ability to play with his feet. They didn't have extremely good keepers as such. Obviously with the rules being more strict with the back pass( not able to handle it) it's more important to have a keeper who is good in commanding not only the area but also good outside it.
Yes there is an extreme risk of someone trying a long range shot from their own half but the positives far outweigh that risk.
Do we need a CB? Yes we do. We we need a better midfield? Yes a lot more than a CB.
Ajax played a possession based style which required players to be strong at recycling the ball and dominant in both defensive and offensive zones with a heavy emphasis on positional play. The battle was to create space by unhinging opposition defensive lines which would then open up space to exploit.
United don't play like Ajax and are closer to a Jurgen Klopp team, and Solskjaer has even gone on record and said he wants his team to play a high line like Liverpool.
Murtough is not data scientist, he’s a football director right? We see the organisation chart that was posted here, the one Judge reports to is Murtough not Ed. So Judge is working directly with Murtough. Murtough can recommend or give instruction to Judge. That means Ed has nothing to do with our transfer football strategy anymore since he only gives Murtough the budget and sign in paper that Murtough sends to him.
Yeah, that's about right. Judge deals with the player contracts and Woodward signs it off
If we get Varane, he is in my good books.
You guys better tell The Athletic this - they are under the impression that Woodward led the negotiations for the Sancho deal.
The Athletic is making inconsistent statements now because the organisation chart I was referring to was coming from The Athletic. Based on organisation chart that they posted, Ed shouldn’t be involved with our football transfer strategy department.
Makes sense considering he was there talking with them last year and presumably all throughout the season.
That being said I'd be VERY surprised if Murtough wasn't involved in some form or another during all this.
This is the organisation chart. Made by The Athletic themselves.
I have yet to see we use that for the main Team. We are still targeting the most obvious players where other big teams are also targeting.
On academy's level, true that we seems to do much better on signing good prospects.
Honestly I can start to some kind of plan and profile. Even kind of with the older heads getting deals that none of us love. It’s all placeholding for the right younger players to be signed or to come through the academy without just firing them straight in. In regard to our recent transfer work…
Amad - Sancho
Camavinga - Bellingham
Varane - Romero/Torres
They of course are pretty obvious names but they will have a similar style and function in our team and it is something the data heads must think we’ve been missing. Think back even to Jose. In hindsight all his signings were just a mish mash of punts right up to Sanchez. I don’t think we’d make the mistake of signing a Pogba and playing him as a box to box again. I think Cavani is solid succession planning for a haaland and Matic for a Camavinga or Bellingham and so on.
it’s slow but I think there is a plan in place. At last.
Come to think of it, you do make sense with our signings during Ole's. Although I thought the system has been there even during Mou's tenure.
Yes, at least the Data Center can be used as a concrete reason to approve or reject a purchase; instead of going by manager. If we get the type of Harry Redknapp's who likes to get 100 players a season, the Club has something to fallback to reject/approve.
I do wish we're targeting a less than obvious ones, with the limited budget we "apparently" have.
Ole is a manager of our club - yet he is also a fan of this club. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the quality of our players are improving. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that we look like we may be being run better by better people.
I can see the improvements in the squad bit by bit aswell as the improvements in certain players.
After watching managers like Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho spending more time ripping up the team rather than helping something develop - I kind of want to see the progression of our squad to continue its development before we can say that the squad is near complete, perfect and needs a manager that can win things with our players.
I can see the improvements in the squad bit by bit aswell as the improvements in certain players.
After watching managers like Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho spending more time ripping up the team rather than helping something develop - I kind of want to see the progression of our squad to continue its development before we can say that the squad is near complete, perfect and needs a manager that can win things with our players.
We seem to be in for Kamaldeen the Ghanaian winger and he’s one to develop for around 10 million. I’m sure we are cooking up some more under the radar signings even though I’m not sure how Brexit is going to affect that with players supposedly needing international caps to qualify for permits?
It’s a lot more exciting and straightforward this year at least! Sancho - done. Varane signs for Madrid again we’ve got our other targets set. If we get him then Camavinga is perfect while we phase Matic out and so on. I’m psyched really. This is how a really big club should recruit!
Love the idea that Ed was sorting it via WhatsApp.
Ed: So what time we meeting and who's picking up the sniff? I sorted last time so someone else ffs. Also, we wearing shirts or t-shirts?
Watzke: ...?
Ed: Ah sorry Joaquin I thought this was my #ladsladslads group, ignore my last
Watzke: ...ok...
Ed: Joax, can we do a quick 'delete all' mate
You just know that Rooney is in Ed’s WhatsApp under “Wazza”
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I am not of the Ajax of today. I am talking of the Ajax of the late 70s. I have seen Ajax live in the 70s plenty of times. They play a very high line with Stuy sweeping up from goal.
"wazza mate, you want pick up in the morning? - Woody"
.
Of course they played a high line in 70s, which is well documented under Rinus Michels who laid the foundations for that team with his total football concept, hence the keeper was heavily involved in the build up phase.
Actually no. He was more rigid like LVG. It was under Stefan Kovacs they played their best football after Michels left.
Michels laid the foundations for the Ajax team in 70s, and his team's played a very fluid brand of football which had heavy emphasis on positional play. Stefan Kovac's brought more freedom to Michels's work but the concept remained the same. He enjoyed his best moments at Ajax after the foundation was laid by Michels but couldn't replicate that success anywhere else. Him giving the team more freedom was also said to be the destruction of that team.
Fred actually looks pretty good here. Wtf.I don't see McTominay's passing being any more of an issue that Fred's or any of the other in vogue midfielders people talk about. His long range passing needs a bit of work maybe, and I'd have questions about him switching off in defensive situations sometimes, but his regular passing is pretty decent.
Because he's a good player.
That's why it's hard to like stats. Fred looks better than Kante is just criminal.
I'm not seeing anywhere in those links where it outright states he's a data scientist a-la what @dinostar77 posted:
Again, an administrator/executive can head up efforts "focused on developing United's data science strategy..."
The second sentence in the piece that contains that quote seems to be: "Dating back to Jose Mourinho days, this was cited as an aspiration to set the club up in a new direction." Again, no mention of Murtough himself being a data scientist. The second sentence of the article in the first link seems to be: "Unlike rivals such as Manchester City, Liverpool and Leicester City, United do not currently have a single data scientist on the football side of their business."
Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing how an otherwise uninformed reader such as myself can make the leap from those sentences to deducing that his background is data science and not administrative/executive, for example.
A administrator/executive can head up efforts but can't lead in the actual process hence Murtough being described as a 'innovator' in the field.
Maybe it's just me, but his background was instantly identifiable when he first joined the club for the purpose of revamping the back ground structure and modernising the club, which was his job.
I am not talking from reading something online. I have seen Ajax play lots of times in the 70s in Amsterdam. Giving the team the license to play more freely was not the reason for the team to collapse. The Dutch were always an argumentative side. It is happening even now. Cruijff fell out with everyone and then when he left and Neeskens followed him, the team collapsed. Piet Keizer had also come to the end of his career and Blankenberg left to go to back to Germany.