I'm genuinely baffled at how the notion that Guardiola is anything other than a top manager, is now commonplace, in the fact of facts and trophies. Dumbfounded.
Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"
- Thread starter Adisa
- Start date
No-one here denies Guardiola is an excellent coach, but there is an annoying trend to make grandiose statements on people who are yet to completely prove themselves compared to the other people in their job who have or had been there and done it in more difficult conditions and over a longer period of time. Sir Alex Ferguson started at East Stirlingshire, Mourinho at Uniao Leiria or something, and look what they achieved and for how long, especially Sir Alex obviously etc. I consider Mourinho's treble with Inter and CL with Porto a way more impressive achievement than anything Guardiola has done to this point. Same goes for Sir Alex winning the CWC with Aberdeen and his sustained success with United and how he transformed the club. Guardiola started in the comfort zone of having the best team in the world at that point that had just peaked on top of everything (I will not go into how he beat Chelsea in 2009 and Arsenal in 2011). He then went to a 1-team league and failed to take the team or the club forward. He could be as good as Sir Alex, but he could also end up a Bielsa or a Riijkard, we never know.
Last edited:
This is not true. He improved us as a team, and a lot of our players on the individual level. A CL win cannot be planned, a lot of factors have to come together for this to happen.
He -as any other human being- certainly isn't flawless, but this "He always had it easy" narrative doesn't gain in truth by continued repetition.
I really, really wanted to avoid getting into arguments on how Guardiola is rated as a caoch but i couldn't stop myself having bolded something in your post that is untrue. Manchester United, English and European champions were the best team in the world when Guardiola started as Barcelona manager in 2008 in terms of results and maybe personnel. Rijkaard's Barcelona also peaked in 2006 and were an underachieving, under performing side when Guardiola was appointed.
Guardiola's battle with Mourinho drained him emotionally and physically, that seems true. His record against Mourinho was heavily in his favour though so the notion he all of a sudden became scared after one season where Mourinho finally came out on top is very flimsy. It would suggest a complete lack of self-confidence and faith in his players. Guardiola did not respond in kind, that's not to say he was incapable of it. Your argument basically implies Pep must be one of the most mentally weak managers in football. You're focusing way too much on the personal battle between the two, as if Mourinho is such an incompetent manager that when his adversary leaves he is incapable of sustaining his motivation. Whatever you're saying, it paints Mourinho and Guardiola in a very negative light that is incongruous with reality.
This is why I have a 'fascination with having to know someone personally before being able to make observations'. You state you do not know Guardiola before proceeding to make a statement as if it is a fact when it is anything but that. Has Pep ever said he likes to take the easy option? Have people close to him ever said that? No, so do not present it as a fact. He played for Barcelona, managed their B team, then took over the first-team. That's called attachment to a club, not the easy option, and in direct competition with the world's richest team. He then had a reputation so high he could have taken over virtually any club, and he chose Bayern, a club where not winning the CL alone means some deem him a failure. Is it likely he perceived that as an easy option or a challenge riddled with pressure in a foreign country, foreign league and foreign culture? Now he's taken over City, a club who have just finished 4th in the league, and again where the pressure is perhaps higher than at any other team in the league. Again, is it likely he perceived this as an easy option? Ultimately we do not know, but I'm not going to start spouting opinions as facts. It has as much merit as me saying 'Ferguson was scared of managing a foreign team because he never did so. I don't know him but it's true'.
How do you know most people agree with that? Also you do not know its true, you believe it to be true.
What you fail to highlight is the political turmoil happening at Barca during the time which also played a part in his decision to leave (mainly left including the guys currently at City now)
Was choosing City over United the easy choice? Or the choice made to work with people who he knew and trusted? We don't know, some will have opinions but we really do not know.
For Pep's football to work, a lot of things have to go in his favor. His teams need to have 11 players comfortable on the ball. Every player needs to be able to press the opposition and win the ball. He also needs at least 3 players that can dribble well in the final third and get goals.
Pep will enjoy working with Aguero, Silva, KDB and Sterling but I don't quite see anyone else in that squad that fits Pep's philosophy. He's a very good manager and might still get the best out of other average City players. Plus my gut says that Iheanacho will have a bit of a breakout season under Pep.
I still don't think he fancies any defenders or goalkeepers in that City squad. For his own sake he should be investing in that area because it will be quite hilarious watching the likes of Demichilis, Mangala and Otamendi trying to play tiki-taka. But something tells me that they will just buy shit tons of midfielders just because.
Pep will enjoy working with Aguero, Silva, KDB and Sterling but I don't quite see anyone else in that squad that fits Pep's philosophy. He's a very good manager and might still get the best out of other average City players. Plus my gut says that Iheanacho will have a bit of a breakout season under Pep.
I still don't think he fancies any defenders or goalkeepers in that City squad. For his own sake he should be investing in that area because it will be quite hilarious watching the likes of Demichilis, Mangala and Otamendi trying to play tiki-taka. But something tells me that they will just buy shit tons of midfielders just because.
Mourinho moulded his team to become so successful he lost the title easily in the following season, fighting with everyone and getting thrown out of the job. Scary stuff indeed.
In we're going with pure hyperbole, then Mourinho was emotionally and managerially broken enough to have been sacked before being truly dominated by SAF, in the miserable way his time at RM ended and of course that abysmal 15-16 season.
But I wouldn't go that far at all. Two top managers who like everyone else aren't perfect. So they're going to lose titles or leave jobs or be sacked from them.
Last edited:
You dont even need to make an exaggerated point. It's widely accepted that managing Madrid took a lot out of Mourinho.
Pep could not motivate his players anymore @BobbyManc
He admitted himself he was incapable of rising to the challenge. This isn't a big revelation now. He left because the team simply did not listen to him anymore. That is how we know he would have failed if he decided to stay.
Spot on.
Again, this is an opinion, not a fact. I doubt Ranieri felt he could win the league with Leicester when he took the job, that hardly stopped him did it? As for Guardiola admitting this, what about his interview in 2014: Pep Guardiola has disputed reports that he left Barcelona because he felt he could no longer lift the club's players. “Maybe I did not explain myself well,” Guardiola told Mundo Deportivo. “It was a purely personal matter. I felt the moment had come."
Just a few musings from someone a little baffled by the apparent crazy confidence of this appointment.
Look I was pissed when Pep was announced for City, not because I was so excited about what he can do for clubs but because I thought he should be the natural progression after LVG BUT after the waters have settled I have to be honest I don't see why any fan should consider him as anything higher than Conte, LVG or any other previously successful manager coming to the premier league for the first time.
Lets be very very clear here, there is no league in the world like the Premier League, many many top top managers have come and failed, many with lofty careers like Pep for example our very own LVG, Carlo Ancelotti and Scolari. To think that Guardiola will be able to come into THIS league and implement his style from Barca/Bayern is bordering on madness. There was a coach that tried it, his name again, was LVG this league is way way too competitive to be sat on the halfway line dictating play with possession and intricate passing. For example, how often did you see Leicester last year sat back playing pretty passes. When was the last time any team won the league like that? City in their first win certainly didn't they were strong, physical and clinical. The Jose Chelsea teams? exactly the same- the United teams even most recently in 2013 were strong, clinical and hit on the counter.
Pep will have to completely change his philosophy and rework his thinking for the Premier League, now if you didn't have other top teams also adapting and improving you could argue that maybe, MAYBE the Pep approach could do serious damage with some serious investment. But the reality is you have Conte coming to Chelsea, he will strive to play a defensive and organised approach, they will be incredibly difficult to break down and also will spend BIG. Klopp has already dismantled Peps Bayern and Barca sides before with his brand of high intensity holistic approach to the game. Then you have Jose who will invest heavily, have a team versed in possession and most importantly the experience of winning four titles in England. This is all without mentioning Ranieri at Leicester, Pochettino at Spurs (Pochettinos Espanyol side were incredibly difficult to beat, Peps Barca amongst his scalps.> May have made that up.
Anyway my point is, yes he has a fantastic track record, but in this crazy world of football there are literally no guarantees, he is just as likely to scrape them into the top 4 as he is to get them winning the title.
Look I was pissed when Pep was announced for City, not because I was so excited about what he can do for clubs but because I thought he should be the natural progression after LVG BUT after the waters have settled I have to be honest I don't see why any fan should consider him as anything higher than Conte, LVG or any other previously successful manager coming to the premier league for the first time.
Lets be very very clear here, there is no league in the world like the Premier League, many many top top managers have come and failed, many with lofty careers like Pep for example our very own LVG, Carlo Ancelotti and Scolari. To think that Guardiola will be able to come into THIS league and implement his style from Barca/Bayern is bordering on madness. There was a coach that tried it, his name again, was LVG this league is way way too competitive to be sat on the halfway line dictating play with possession and intricate passing. For example, how often did you see Leicester last year sat back playing pretty passes. When was the last time any team won the league like that? City in their first win certainly didn't they were strong, physical and clinical. The Jose Chelsea teams? exactly the same- the United teams even most recently in 2013 were strong, clinical and hit on the counter.
Pep will have to completely change his philosophy and rework his thinking for the Premier League, now if you didn't have other top teams also adapting and improving you could argue that maybe, MAYBE the Pep approach could do serious damage with some serious investment. But the reality is you have Conte coming to Chelsea, he will strive to play a defensive and organised approach, they will be incredibly difficult to break down and also will spend BIG. Klopp has already dismantled Peps Bayern and Barca sides before with his brand of high intensity holistic approach to the game. Then you have Jose who will invest heavily, have a team versed in possession and most importantly the experience of winning four titles in England. This is all without mentioning Ranieri at Leicester, Pochettino at Spurs (Pochettinos Espanyol side were incredibly difficult to beat, Peps Barca amongst his scalps.> May have made that up.
Anyway my point is, yes he has a fantastic track record, but in this crazy world of football there are literally no guarantees, he is just as likely to scrape them into the top 4 as he is to get them winning the title.
It's not just opinion. It's his opinion. There's a full Marca interview you can read but I won't bother linking it since you must have clicked on it already when you googled Pep and reasons he left Barca.
He has clearly fecking stated that he left Barca because he couldn't motivate himself or the team anymore. He has said that numerous fecking times.
You are basically arguing with Pep himself. Unless you think an unmotivated Pep and his side could come back from a season which they tanked while unmotivated then there's nothing else to say. He felt he had to take a fecking year off to recover but yes.. An emotionally exhausted Pep would have come roaring back. Guardiola is a God.
When someone brings up Leicester the argument is as stretched as it can be. Anything is possible then.
I didn't make an exaggerated point. You did. Mourinho couldn't motivate his players to reach the necessary level at Chelsea (last season and a bit), RM (last season ) and Chelsea (he didnr fail to motivate them he destroyed the team). If you're so willing to make those claims against Pep I'm sure you'll accept all that I say about Mourinho.
He would have been up against Jose, a guy who not only couldn't motivate his troops to perform at the required level but also picked fights and was deemed unnecessary. So yeah of course it's debateable who would have won that season between the guy who walked away and the guy who stayed, sucked and got sacked.
I didn't say Mourinho wasn't affected? I honestly don't care if Jose was sent to a mental hospital after. I simply stated Pep left Barca mentally exhausted from Jose and Madrid's antics.
I have no idea why I have to defend myself here. No moving of goalposts concerning head to heads or Jose situation changes anything about the points I made against Pep.
Read your "points" and how much they reach to be crucial to the point of clear agenda. Apparently Pep left with his "tail between his legs". How would you described how Jose left RM, Chelsea and Chelsea?
Can you guys not make this thread a Pep vs Mourinho battle?
Mourinho left Chelsea the first time with them on the same amount of points as United
And having lost the title to Fergie. Owner obviously didn't have much faith in him turning it around.
Pep didn't know that did he? Barca went on to perform for Tito so without that motivation what would have happened? It's completly different if Pep stays. Would Jose and Madrid have become embroiled in politics if they weren't so far behind Barca?
They are completly different motivations and scenarios. Pep didn't have the stomach or motivation for the fight despite what time machine he invents.
Says more about Roman if anything.
So far, City have been linked to a fair few players, but they seem to have a few in the bag or very likely. I haven't put Sane in the team because I think he'll be a bit part player to start with, with Silva, Nolito and De Bruyne in there.
Aguero/Aubameyang
Nolito Silva de Bruyne
Gundogan Fernandinho
Clichy Otamendi Stones Zabaleta
Hart
I reckon they'll consider replacing a defender or two, as well as bringing in Stones, but I dunno who they'd buy. With this team though, the only way they don't win the league is if we pull off some stunning signings I reckon. With Aguero and Aubameyang in the squad though, would they be tempted to play both in some games, 4-4-2 or similar? They could have a diamond with:
Aguero/Aubameyang
Nolito Silva de Bruyne
Gundogan Fernandinho
Clichy Otamendi Stones Zabaleta
Hart
I reckon they'll consider replacing a defender or two, as well as bringing in Stones, but I dunno who they'd buy. With this team though, the only way they don't win the league is if we pull off some stunning signings I reckon. With Aguero and Aubameyang in the squad though, would they be tempted to play both in some games, 4-4-2 or similar? They could have a diamond with:
Aguero Aubameyang
Silva
<--Nolito De Bruyne-->
Gundogan
Clichy Otamendi Stones Zabaleta
Hart
Silva
<--Nolito De Bruyne-->
Gundogan
Clichy Otamendi Stones Zabaleta
Hart
As usual, it seems Pep will have a team of top stars to work with, who should dominate for the most part. It'll be interesting to see how he copes with a much more competitive league than he's used to though.
Oh yes Pep is no bad not only would he suck during this hypothetical season he'd also manage to help Mourinho not have a crap season. Alright then
Said this before and I stand by it now, Pep and city are really gonna struggle next year and peps stock will take a hit.
I simply do not care if the points match exactly with Jose? How is this relevent to Pep?
Says as much about Mourinho as leaving Barca did for Pep - very little. He lost a league title and the boss didn't believe in him. Pep lost a league and left for the German league. Theyre allowed to lose and allowed to leave/be sacked.
Because you're badly exposing yourself for the clear agenda you have. Well done on proving it emphatically btw. This doesnt really require further discussion once you let that out of the bag.
Did I say they weren't allowed to? I don't know what you're arguing against tbh.
Obviously allowed to without epeople going mentally over the top about it. Didn't need to be spelled out.
What agenda? Jose is not the same manager he was pre Madrid.
If you want to move the goalposts then fair enough. Jose could end up in a monestry deaf and mute from his time at Madrid and it would not change the fact Pep was mentally fatigued from peak Madrid / Jose cuntiness
Lost the title after being in a close title race til the end of April I think and won the FA Cup + League cup. Doesn't mean much when that owner is Abramovich, a guy who gave a dressing down to Ancelloti after a 6-0 win
Being mentally fatigued in a high profile job such as football management is probably a regular occurance. Something said has less meaning when you realize that it happens to everyone out there.
It means as much as Pep losing the league and leaving, which is my point. That failure and moving on happens to nearly everyone. I'm neither absolving anyone nor demonizing anyone. But people expecting perfection are bound to be disappointed.
So why are you arguing against me? The El Classico circus broke him.
I didn't state anything that isn't widely accepted or from the horses mouth.
Not many managers needs to leave football for a year to recuperate after such an ordeal though. Not such a regular occurance if we're honest.
Where was Ancelotti managing during the 15-16 season?
Demichelis' contract is up, he's been released.
Pep doesn't play tiki-taka.
Waiting for the Bayern job would be my guess.
That whole disaster fecked Pellegrini and Ancelotti.
You place way too much importance on Mourinho's role in Pep's departure from Barca.
It did play some part, but there were bigger factors. Internal strife at Barca and a ludicrously high workload were the chief reasons he went.
Tiki-taka or not, his teams have over 65% possession most games and it seems that's exactly what he wants. So, in order for a team to have 65% of useful and meaningful possession (unlike Van Gaal's 65%), he has to have the right personnel technically, physically and stamina-wise, especially in the PL. Also, that personnel will need to fulfill another Guardiola's trademark - pressing. That will be way more difficult to apply successfully and on a regular basis than in the German and Spanish leagues, given the tempo and the volume of games in England. If the pressing fails, and this is my opinion, Guardiola's defence tends to be shambles sometimes despite his defensive record. If his teams don't win the ball in the opposition's half, they are extremely vulnerable.
Oh, and, be ready for him to blame every Tom, Dick and Harry for his shortcomings. That's his trademark as much as assigning Messi with a fake 9 role.
Last edited: