The difference being that my defense is suited to playing deep with some great defenders. On the other hand your defense isn't suited to playing a high-line against 2 pacy wing-forwards. Chendo and Helguera are hardly the most athletic or pacey players here. Ultimately it is more likely for me to hit you on the break than you breaking through my defense and midfield.
If any type of strikers were to be able to break down tough defences it would be my pair, they're both physical, ridiculously inventive and capable of bagging any type of goal in any type of situation.. long rangers, headers, tap ins, dribbles, over head kicks.. you name it. They're also being suppiied by Laudrup, Figo and Seedorf? how on earth would that attack struggle against any defence. That attack would even give an all time Italian/german combined defence a big headache.. it is a monstrous attack.
Chendo is quick, Helguera not so much but he makes up for it in terms of positioning.
Best form of defence is attack here... he's going to be sitting very deep to prevent me from tearing him apart. I can't see him mounting enough attacks here to present me with major trouble.. I will concede no doubt, but with that attack I will score aplenty.
His defence will hold their own, comfortably, maybe concede one, two tops if you are lucky. One problem there is once you score you have to keep at it and keep taking risks because you simply don't have a good defence to hold on to a result. Conversely, he can, and has the perfect setup to pick you out on the break: three great runners against a car crash of a defensive trio and Bernd Schuster -of all people- playing quarterback.
If any type of strikers were to be able to break down tough defences it would be my pair, they're both physical, ridiculously inventive and capable of bagging any type of goal in any type of situation.. long rangers, headers, tap ins, dribbles, over head kicks.. you name it. They're also being suppiied by Laudrup, Figo and Seedorf? how on earth would that attack struggle against any defence. That attack would even give an all time Italian/german combined defence a big headache.. it is a monstrous attack.
It's a great attack alright and will be a headache but it's a sturdy defence, while yours is Play-Doh. If there's someone who can break it up, that's Michael Laudrup. The fundamental question is why you had the need for so many midfielders and "creative sources" when you have one of the best ever. More to the point, what the hell is Luis Enrique doing in midfield when he largely played LB for Del Bosque, incidentally, the position you are lacking a player in.
This is Raees' best formation AFAIC, with Makelele covering Figo when he goes "on a Di María" (Chendo was largely defensive, particularly at his age then) and Lucho as an attacking fullback on the left.
This is Raees' best formation AFAIC, with Makelele covering Figo when he goes "on a Di María" (Chendo was largely defensive, particularly at his age then) and Lucho as an attacking fullback on the left.
Just posting these bits from the manager draft thread about Schwarzenbeck and Vogts if anyone's interested in reading about them.
Der Kaiser's ever so reliable partner in crime for about 11 seasons and a perennial rock at the back. Beckenbauer could venture forward dribbling past players and dictating play, safe in the knowledge that there was Schwarzenbeck doing the 'cleaning' back in the defense. As is the case with playing alongside the stand-out greats of the game, Schwarzenbeck never quite got the acclaim a defender of his stature deserved. He is harshly regarded as the cleaner for Beckenbauer but you could be certain that he would have been more highly regarded and rated had he been born in another era.
Also played a huge part in Bayern's European Cup triumph with a stunning last minute equalizer against Atletico when Atletico's keeper Reina (father of the Liverpool keeper) was rumoured to have been distracted by a conversation with a journalist behind the goal.
About his relationship with the great Franz Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck once said the following: “Franz reminds me of my old teacher in the printing office. He handled printing ink all day long but still his hands always were clean. I, however, only had to look at the printing machine and I already would get dirty!”
One could also say the same for Vogts, playing in the same era as Beckenbauer and also in the same international team as well. Saying that he managed to finish 5th in the Balon D'Or in 1975 which was great for a defender unless you are Beckenbauer that is. This is the guy who singe-handedly managed to keep Cruyff out of the WC final and made the best pure striker ever, retreat to his own box whilst playing for the under appreciated Gladback side of the 70s.
Bonhof then adds:" Yeah, but you have to add, that Gerd quite often played defender against Gladbach"
Interviewer: Gerd Müller in defense?
Bonhof: Well, at least I've watched Gerd staying in defense and Franz asking him:"What are you doing here, go forward." Gerd's answer:"I don't want anymore, you can go and play against Berti (Vogts)".
Managed to repeat the same trick against Liverpool's key player Kevin Keegan in the European Cup final for most of the game but Vogts was getting on a bit with age. Thus, he couldn't do the job fully for 90 mins, with Keegan sneaking out of Der Terrier's pocket momentarily to win a penalty late on in the game.
All you had to do was point at Player X from the opposition team for Vogts and that player would take his place in Vogts pocket for the ensuing 90 minutes. Would rate him as one of the best defensive full-backs ever and would even rate him ahead of Maldini and Thuram when it comes to the purely defensive side of the game.
More on his masterclass against Cruyff, wonder what is going through Laudrup's mind when he faces Der Terrier.
A career in the national team which strecthed over 11 years, 96 caps and 1 goal, winning the EUROs with Germany as a coach, but there is one thing that Berti Vogts is famous more than anything else: He was the man who had to face the Dutch midfield maestro Johan Cruyff in the 1974 World Cup final.
The game got off to the worst possible start, as Cruyff broke through and was fouled in the box after two minutes. Neeskens gave the Netherlands the lead from the spot and Germany was on the back foot from the start of the match. Vogts had been advised by national team Helmut Schön that he should start waging battle with Cruyff 30 meters in front of the goal. The Gladbach player himself thought that the idea was madness, but proceeded as his coach wanted at that the start of the match.
The first period of the match saw the Dutch national team controlling the match entirely, which prompted Vogts to go the sideline telling his coach: I’ll do it my way now!
Despite his coach’s objections Vogts did just that, and as the game progressed Cruyff started to become more and more unhappy with himself and his team’s performance. Vogts, who was also known as “The terrier” during his playing days, states these days that it a team performance which secured Germany the title. However, there’s little doubt that his performance against one of the greatest players that the game has ever seen was amongst the key factors in that win.
I'm actually glad if it's decided without me voting. It's one of those games where I'm so heavily biased to the players in one team that I can't really make a fair decision . I always feel a bit bad, if I vote in one of those. I'm such a chicken sometimes
I'm actually glad if it's decided without me voting. It's one of those games where I'm so heavily biased to the players in one team that I can't really make a fair decision . I always feel a bit bad, if I vote in one of those. I'm such a chicken sometimes
It's alright, I felt the same way voting for Cutch's Fergie team earlier on, so much so I was beginning to focus more on his negatives and his opponent's positives to try and negate my bias. I even chickened out of the Trap vs Guardiola match as well, was just so damn tight to call and could honestly see either side winning there.
This is a far better formation. Balanced with players in their best positions. You really should have started with this. Could have swayed much more votes.
This is a far better formation. Balanced with players in their best positions. You really should have started with this. Could have swayed much more votes.
Congrats mate, as a matter of interest.. how are you looking to upgrade, are there many options out there? and thanks to the others for their involvement in the discussion!
I still think you'll win, but in new formation I really don't see you scoring. With Makelele there, Seedorf would do a more box-to-box role keeping a eye on Hoeness and that defence is capable of handling Jensen and Heynckes.
On the flip side, two attackers, one of them being Ronaldo plus Laudrup and a supporting Figo is just too delicious to ignore. I really rate your defence much, but I think Ronaldo will sneak a goal in eventually.
Maybe I should have stuck with you as the change came too late in the game, but going by votes, I know I'm not making a difference in the eventual outcome
Didn't vote in this one because I couldn't decide, I like a lot about both teams. Didn't mind Raees's formation either, looks a bit messy on paper but in practise I thought it would have been fine.
On the otherside I'm a sucker for a good defence and Joga's was brilliant - right down to the staggered way he drew them on the formation OP. It looked fantastic.
Interested to see who Joga upgrades with going forward as he has a great base to kick on from - There was another Lattek side IIRC, did they go through?
I still think you'll win, but in new formation I really don't see you scoring. With Makelele there, Seedorf would do a more box-to-box role keeping a eye on Hoeness and that defence is capable of handling Jensen and Heynckes.
On the flip side, two attackers, one of them being Ronaldo plus Laudrup and a supporting Figo is just too delicious to ignore. I really rate your defence much, but I think Ronaldo will sneak a goal in eventually.
Maybe I should have stuck with you as the change came too late in the game, but going by votes, I know I'm not making a difference in the eventual outcome
I can understand where you are getting at but I think when you are playing a diamond you need your full-backs to be adventurous and be wing-backs of sorts. Chendo was primarily a limited defensive full back and he already has Brehme-Jensen on his flanks. Luis Enrique was a great player and I really rate him extremely highly but he has to content with Hoeness's blistering pace here.
I've already addressed these points in the OP.
-He has the defensive Chendo on the right flank who won't be able to contribute much offensively whilst struggling to contain the brilliant Brehme-Jensen duo. The legendary Brehme was a brilliant attacking wing-back who also has the Dane Jensen for support here, not that he would need it. Think Raees would have been better served going with Salgado instead.
-On the left flank he has Luis Enrique who was a great player but he has to deal with Hoeness here. Hoeness would be more than able to track his runs and also provide a genuine counter-attacking threat if Enrique ventures forward. The further Luis Enrique is forward, the more area Hoeness has behind him to show his blistering pace. Hoeness was able to do 100m in 11 seconds mind you.
Ultimately I just think there is just way too much dependency on Laudrup here to come up with the goods which was probably my only gripe with his team. Let's not forget I'm letting Vogts loose on Laudrup here, the guy who has did a job on the likes of Muller, Cruyff and Keegan, as he doesn't have too much to do on the right flank with WImmer covering any potential Seedorf runs. Plus I couldn't have asked for a more defensively sound midfield trio in Wimmer-Bonhof-Schuster who can limit Seedorf's and Figo's influence on the match. I've really focused intensely on cutting off/limiting the supply lines with a pacey counter-attacking team which was the best way to approach the top-heavy galacticos.
Didn't vote in this one because I couldn't decide, I like a lot about both teams. Didn't mind Raees's formation either, looks a bit messy on paper but in practise I thought it would have been fine.
On the otherside I'm a sucker for a good defence and Joga's was brilliant - right down to the staggered way he drew them on the formation OP. It looked fantastic.
Interested to see who Joga upgrades with going forward as he has a great base to kick on from - There was another Lattek side IIRC, did they go through?
Time to form a coalition then before I backstab you and take reign of the united German team
In a way it's a good thing that we both are sharing Lattek's pool, it makes it more challenging for both of us imo. Gives us something to argue about, make our cases and not just post a formation picture and get a free ride.
The good thing about both of you sharing Lattek's pool is that guys like Wimmer, Roth, Hoeneß, Schwarzenbeck, Augenthaler really are talked about in a positive way and they all deserve it, awesome players. With only one Lattek, there's a good chance that most of them wouldn't have been picked.
Thats a good point. Between the style of draft, and sharing the manager with joga...iI've researched teams and players I wouldnt normally. Definitely been more of a fun ride.
That would be the worst. One of them would definitely go through and get to improve his team with alltime great picks in his weakest part of the team. They either both need to go out next round or both go through, so that none of them can improve.
That would be the worst. One of them would definitely go through and get to improve his team with alltime great picks in his weakest part of the team. They either both need to go out next round or both go through, so that none of them can improve.
Yup, an unified Lattek team would just be too difficult to beat. I think if we make an uncontested XI for one of the managers in the drafts, Lattek or Trap or Capello will probably have the best XI brimming with all-time greats.
Well done to both managers - this game made for a really good-tempered and interesting debate. I had close to feck all to add as I've seen almost nothing of alot of Joga's attackers, but its his defence that ultimately swayed me as I couldn't quite picture how Raess' team would work. I think I also slightly overrate pre-1998 Ronaldo and underrate post-1998 Ronaldo!
Yup, an unified Lattek team would just be too difficult to beat. I think if we make an uncontested XI for one of the managers in the drafts, Lattek or Trap or Capello will probably have the best XI brimming with all-time greats.
