Managers Draft - Raees vs Joga Bonito

[Joga Bonito]

Probably should indeed. I agree about how beautiful it was based on the handful of games I've seen, I just never registered this Jensen fella on my radar and I would have sworn Heynckes wasn't a CF. Small sample though!

Well I wouldn't really hold it as a slight on him but rather a compliment to the spectacular fellow forwards he was playing with namely Simonsen and Heynckes who perhaps managed to overshadow him. He was later bought by Real which I believe says something about his quality given that Real bought premium talent from Germany at that point of time, the likes of Gunter Netzer, Uli Stielike and Breitner. Even Simonsen went on to Barca later on. Jensen managed to have more success than Simonsen though, winning two la ligas in the three years he spent there.

For what its worth, in 2006, Henning Jensen was named among the nominees for DBU's "Denmark's All-Time Best Footballer" award, alongside Preben Elkjær Larsen, Brian Laudrup, Michael Laudrup, Morten Olsen, Peter Schmeichel, Allan Simonsen and Jon Dahl Tomasson.

Kind of funny how he went under the radar. Heck even the whole Gladbach team of the 70s never got the credit they deserved. Perhaps due to a lack of European success that the Bayern team managed to achieve, cementing their status as one of the best teams ever. It has been really fun researching about those players and watching a few footages of their great play.

Obligatory short youtube video



EDIT: Perhaps you might have watched him in his Ajax days when he was playing alongside the likes of Lerby and Arnesen

 

[Isotope]

Thanks @Joga Bonito @Balu .
Always thought of him as LW/LF or CM/AMC.

 

[antohan]

Well I wouldn't really hold it as a slight on him but rather a compliment to the spectacular fellow forwards he was playing with namely Simonsen and Heynckes who perhaps managed to overshadow him. He was later bought by Real which I believe says something about his quality given that Real bought premium talent from Germany at that point of time, the likes of Gunter Netzer, Uli Stielike and Breitner. Even Simonsen went on to Barca later on. Jensen managed to have more success than Simonsen though, winning two la ligas in the three years he spent there.

For what its worth, in 2006, Henning Jensen was named among the nominees for DBU's "Denmark's All-Time Best Footballer" award, alongside Preben Elkjær Larsen, Brian Laudrup, Michael Laudrup, Morten Olsen, Peter Schmeichel, Allan Simonsen and Jon Dahl Tomasson.

Kind of funny how he went under the radar. Heck even the whole Gladbach team of the 70s never got the credit they deserved. Perhaps due to a lack of European success that the Bayern team managed to achieve, cementing their status as one of the best teams ever. It has been really fun researching about those players and watching a few footages of their great play.

Obligatory short youtube video



EDIT: Perhaps you might have watched him in his Ajax days when he was playing alongside the likes of Lerby and Arnesen

That's some company... bar Jon Dahl, obviously. How the hell did he get in there? Unfortunately I haven't seen any of Lerby/Arnesen at Ajax, only caught up with them later in the 80s

Basically, wide player who was good enough to start for the Gladmunchers and get a move to Real, in a setup he would be comfortable in and with familiar partners. Works for me.

 

[Fergus' son]

Such an amazing defence Joga has. Not sure who to vote for in this one, OP doesn't even mention who the managers are. Surprised that a couple of teams are looking so disjointed in this draft, thought it would've been the opposite. Can't for the life of me work out the logic behind raees' defence.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Such an amazing defence Joga has. Not sure who to vote for in this one, OP doesn't even mention who the managers are. Surprised that a couple of teams are looking so disjointed in this draft, thought it would've been the opposite. Can't for the life of me work out the logic behind raees' defence.

- Raees (Vincent del Bosque)
- Joga Bonito (Udo Lattek)

 

[harms]

I can't stand it no more. @Raees, why are you and some people spelling Makelele like Makalele? Am I missing something here?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Such an amazing defence Joga has. Not sure who to vote for in this one, OP doesn't even mention who the managers are. Surprised that a couple of teams are looking so disjointed in this draft, thought it would've been the opposite. Can't for the life of me work out the logic behind raees' defence.

Come on, you know who you want to vote for .

 

[Joga Bonito]

I can't stand it no more. @Raees, why are you and some people spelling Makelele like Makalele? Am I missing something here?

Nah, me and Raees were just getting mocked for our spelling errors. Schwarzenback for me, Makalele and Illigner for him.

 

[harms]

Nah, me and Raees were just getting mocked for our spelling errors. Schwarzenback for me, Makalele and Illigner for him.

Oh, I fixed Schwarzenbeck for you in the match thread, thought that was a typo too. But I saw Raees spell him like that more than a couple of times in different threads and searched "Makalele" through the forum some time ago - a lot of people spell him that way. I just thought that maybe there is something hidden here (but it seems that this is just a common mistake)

 

[Joga Bonito]

Not getting any joy from the scanvoters and looks like I might have another match which is going to go right down the wire . Well at least I got Germans now if it ends up going to penalties...

 

[harms]

Not getting any joy from the scanvoters and looks like I might have another match which is going to go right down the wire . Well at least I got Germans now if it ends up going to penalties...

Just remembered the Zubi show

 

[Joga Bonito]

Just remembered the Zubi show

Great match that was. Remember the Ljungberg ads in between the penalty shoot-out .

 

[Skizzo]

Not getting any joy from the scanvoters and looks like I might have another match which is going to go right down the wire . Well at least I got Germans now if it ends up going to penalties...

Looks like youve squeaked ahead. I dont want to have to vote on this one might be torn

 

[Raees]

Sounds like you take Beckenbauer's qualities completely out of the equation here? The whole problem with defending against Ronaldo is that you really shouldn't rely on tackling or one on one defending at all. Beckenbauer anticipating the danger and preventing it from happening at all is clearly the best way to deal with Ronaldo. You'd want to minimise the number of times where an all time great striker gets into a dangerous position with the ball at his feet, at least I'd prefer that over hoping to have a brilliant tackler marking him and not fecking up one on one. I also disagree strongly with the notion that Beckenbauer can't play a disciplined role like you suggest in your write-up with the 'but Beckenbauer can’t help but charge out of defence' comment.

It really seems to be common these days to make it seem like a weakness if you have an alltime great defender who's also brilliant on the ball. We had the same with Scirea and Passarella in the last few weeks. It's silly in my opinion. What they can offer on the ball is an added bonus, not a weakness to exploit and against a top-heavy team with so much attacking threat, Beckenbauer certainly won't expose his defense by charging forward.

Hell no, Beckenbauer is a great defender and I am not attempting to downplay that. My argument is that he isn't a defenders defender like the other two libero's you mentioned here or say a Figueroa - who was more defensive in nature and excellent 1 v 1. It is subtle differences but against a striker like Ronaldo that matters.. he made great defenders look stupid. I cited the Juve semi final where he came up against a peak Thuram, Zambrotta, Ciro Ferrera and a highly rated Tudor .. he was decisive and ran them ragged. Any defender would struggle here, he is simply too talented to be contained throughout 90 minutes.

Look at who is feeding ronaldo, he is not going to be given poor passes.. he will get them to feet regularly and be able to square up defenders at will in this set up.

I'm not sure of Raees tactics or defensive set up at all. I admit I'm not familiar with the players, but has Chendo and Helguera ever played RCB and LCB respectively? Chendo was a RB primarily far as I know and Helguera is still right footed, so not sure on his effectiveness at LCB in a 3 man defence. Playing a high line with this defence would not be ideal imo. Stretch play, how? I rate Brehme and Vogts and they will do a solid defensive job there. Your biggest advantage is Ronaldo against Kaiser/Schwarzenbeck and you'll definitely get some joy there, esp if Kaiser decides he is bored and goes off on a attacking tangent.

On the other hand, I'm totally unclear on how Joga plans to take advantage of your 3 man defence. Hoeness is supposed to be a inside forward or a right midfielder (where is he running per his arrow?)

I think my defence is being severely underrated. Chendo is considered Real's greatest right back and marked a peak Maradona out of the game against Napoli in the european cup. He isn't at his peak here, but played regularly during the 94-96 period and was reliable hence him being picked as first choice in 95. He could handle a Jensen for sure and was positionally very sound, more of a defender than an attacking right back - easily capable of playing RCB. If Abidal can play as a LCB and made to look like a fool by Robben at his peak, I'm sure Chendo can handle Jensen.

As for Sanchis, massive underrating of a centre back who is considered better defensively than Hierro and is alongside Santamaria in the Real madrid hall of fame. He stood out for his calmness, restraint in defence, placement and great agility. He was a centre back that set a new standard within the Whites due to his quality as a footballer and his excellent professionalism. He was part of a generation of players that marked an era in Spanish football. Jupp - I've seen clips of him play and he is excellent, a typical number 9 with good feet and good nose for goals.. but Sanchis was strong against all type of forwards. No offence but his attack is nowhere near the class of my attack, it is functional but mine contains three all time greats in the wing, number 10 and number 9 position.

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=186&t=9988

His statistics are very strong and he is one of the best CB's in the late 80-90's period.

Helguera played sweeper in a CL final, with one of the most average defences I've seen in front of him and kept a clean sheet against a great Valencia side. This was in the absence of Hierro who was on the bench. He has played DM, so he is a very versatile, technically gifted defensive player. More than capable of playing across the backline and at LCB. He will also have Enrique covering his flank keeping track of runs by Hoeness if need be and lets not forget, Makelele (got his name right for once) in front of them.

Schuster is a top player but he will not be supported much by that midfield behind him and I don't think he's the type of attacking midfielder who can destroy a Makelele, he's not that type of player, he has a more considered approach but I don't think that will work in this game.

 

[antohan]

Woah! Online FM stats? Can't wait for the arguments: "Your midfielder has 14 in positioning which is about NT level, while mine has 17 which is world class".

Jokes aside, come off it mate, Helguera is a terrible choice of a defender to have as LCB in a back three. Sanchís is fine, agreed, and you will be lucky if a past his peak Chendo is more than OKish. Decent at best. Joga's front three would stretch those three and cause them all sorts of trouble, much more than you will at the other end facing a very sturdy back four.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Joga's front three would stretch those three and cause them all sorts of trouble, much more than you will at the other end facing a very sturdy back four.

What eves out for Raees is Makelele. If he can mitigate Schuster, then Joga would have to depend on Bonhof's long balls or Wimmer to deliver box-to-box, neither very attractive as midfield controller of a game. Due to Raees's wingers, Joga cannot commit his fullbacks too much. Both teams are evenly at a disadvantage here.

 

[harms]

Woah! Online FM stats? Can't wait for the arguments: "Your midfielder has 14 in positioning which is about NT level, while mine has 17 which is world class"

We can create players and simulate the game in Fifa/pes/FM!
On a serious note - that is some enormous database that they have there, I'm very interested what for and how they are using all this stuff if they are using it at all.

 

[Joga Bonito]

What eves out for Raees is Makelele. If he can mitigate Schuster, then Joga would have to depend on Bonhof's long balls or Wimmer to deliver box-to-box, neither very attractive as midfield controller of a game. Due to Raees's wingers, Joga cannot commit his fullbacks too much. Both teams are evenly at a disadvantage here.

The difference being that my team isn't heavily reliant or dependent on an playmaker to function. It is a great advantage and a bonus to have Schuster's creativity in my side. The great Bayern side of the 70s didn't really have a designated playmaker, they had the likes of Roth, Zobel, Kappellmann/Durnberger in the middle. Hardly creative maestros, their team's playmaker from the deep was Beckenbauer. My team has out-balls in Beckenbauer from the deep, Brehme's passing and crossing on the left flank, Wimmer's verve and dribbling, Bonhof's fine passing and Hoeness's good passing as well. Anyway I have great defenders and a viable plan to deal with Figo and Michel, depriving him of half his attack, I just can't see him dealing with Hoeness and Jensen here. At least not without the cost of constantly pulling Enrique and Seedorf into the wings and thereby letting my midfield have the advantage in the midfield battle.

Anyway, Schuster was a proper midfield general, a really complete player and not your typical meek playmaker type. He certainly isn't going to shirk away or be dominated in a midfield battle as great Makelele is. Perhaps @antohan can shed more light on Schuster's dominating displays. Many think Germany could have won the 82 and 86 final if they had this guy. He is considered to be the best German playmaker in the last 30 years after Gunter Netzer. He went toe-to-toe with Maradona at Barca, forming a great partnership and they were both equally great. That's how special he was but the lack of acclaim on the international stage, despite winning an Euro 80, due to early retirement meant he never got the plaudits he deserved.



A match in the Euro 80 against Netherlands, a tournament in which he won the Silver Ball. Simply an imperious player.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Hell no, Beckenbauer is a great defender and I am not attempting to downplay that. My argument is that he isn't a defenders defender like the other two libero's you mentioned here or say a Figueroa - who was more defensive in nature and excellent 1 v 1. It is subtle differences but against a striker like Ronaldo that matters.. he made great defenders look stupid. I cited the Juve semi final where he came up against a peak Thuram, Zambrotta, Ciro Ferrera and a highly rated Tudor .. he was decisive and ran them ragged. Any defender would struggle here, he is simply too talented to be contained throughout 90 minutes.

Look at who is feeding ronaldo, he is not going to be given poor passes.. he will get them to feet regularly and be able to square up defenders at will in this set up.

Like Balu aptly stated here. The best way to neutralize Ronaldo would be to starve/limit him of service as best as you can. You are really playing a risky game if you want to constantly rely on a defender being 1 on 1 with Ronaldo. Heck even defensive colossus greats like Baresi and Kohler are going to be beat by this guy at times. That's why it's absolutely vital that one wins the midfield battle. I can't think of more workaholic or a sturdier defensive midfield than mine to deal with yours. Beckenbauer's defensive nous, organisational skills and anticipation are going to make it harder here for Laudrup to be the supply-line, as well. The underrated Schwarzenbeck isn't an easy one to get past either.

You are going to be heavily reliant on Laudrup here to come up with something. Half of your attack, Figo and Michel are going to be neutralized by Vogts and Brehme here. Your midfield is going to be locked in a great battle between mine. It boils heavily down to Laudrup to do something and he was a magnificent player but it's dangerous to rely on him to be the sole output here. I would have been more concerned if Zamarano played instead of Michel here.

I think my defence is being severely underrated. Chendo is considered Real's greatest right back and marked a peak Maradona out of the game against Napoli in the european cup. He isn't at his peak here, but played regularly during the 94-96 period and was reliable hence him being picked as first choice in 95. He could handle a Jensen for sure and was positionally very sound, more of a defender than an attacking right back - easily capable of playing RCB. If Abidal can play as a LCB and made to look like a fool by Robben at his peak, I'm sure Chendo can handle Jensen.

As for Sanchis, massive underrating of a centre back who is considered better defensively than Hierro and is alongside Santamaria in the Real madrid hall of fame. He stood out for his calmness, restraint in defence, placement and great agility. He was a centre back that set a new standard within the Whites due to his quality as a footballer and his excellent professionalism. He was part of a generation of players that marked an era in Spanish football. Jupp - I've seen clips of him play and he is excellent, a typical number 9 with good feet and good nose for goals.. but Sanchis was strong against all type of forwards. No offence but his attack is nowhere near the class of my attack, it is functional but mine contains three all time greats in the wing, number 10 and number 9 position.

I can understand where you are coming from with the Sanchis being underrated here. I had him on the last draft and many didn't even seem to give him any sort of credit. Pity as he was a great defender but lack of international acclaim has probably hurt his reputation but hey most Spaniards pre-2008 suffer from that.

It is pointless to compare my attack to your attack here mate. No one is denying you have a fantastic attack here and a better one than mine. You have to look at how my defense is going to deal with your attack and how your defense is going to deal with my attack. That is where I believe I have the edge. I will also consider the guys dealing with those three all time-greats to be all-time greats themselves.

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=186&t=9988

His statistics are very strong and he is one of the best CB's in the late 80-90's period.

Oh what's this http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=184&t=3033&start=20
That's right Beckenbauer is rated as a better defender than your best defender and you don't seem to rate Beckenbauer on a pure defensive note. Come on mate, you can do better than that, those ratings are extremely subjective and must be taken with a pinch of salt, except the Beckenbauer's one .

Helguera played sweeper in a CL final, with one of the most average defences I've seen in front of him and kept a clean sheet against a great Valencia side. This was in the absence of Hierro who was on the bench. He has played DM, so he is a very versatile, technically gifted defensive player. More than capable of playing across the backline and at LCB. He will also have Enrique covering his flank keeping track of runs by Hoeness if need be and lets not forget, Makelele (got his name right for once) in front of them.

Schuster is a top player but he will not be supported much by that midfield behind him and I don't think he's the type of attacking midfielder who can destroy a Makelele, he's not that type of player, he has a more considered approach but I don't think that will work in this game.

Sorry, not buying that at all. I can't see how you can say Bonhof and Wimmer aren't going to be able to support Schuster here. He is exactly the kind of midfielder who I can see winning a battle against Makelele, he didn't have a considered approach at all.

 

[harms]

Like Balu aptly stated here. The best way to neutralize Ronaldo would be to starve/limit him of service as best as you can. You are really playing a risky game if you want to constantly rely on a defender being 1 on 1 with Ronaldo.

I seem to remember that @Balu was talking about C. Ronaldo at the time? Though it's an ultimate recipe, if the player can't touch the ball he can't do anything with him, plain and simple.

 

[Balu]

I seem to remember that @Balu was talking about C. Ronaldo at the time? Though it's an ultimate recipe, if the player can't touch the ball he can't do anything with him, plain and simple.

I think he refers to my reply above where I said that Raees' comments about Beckenbauer not being suited to defend Ronaldo and Schwarzenbeck not being good enough are a bit silly, because he took the strength of both individuals out of the equation instead of looking at how brilliant they work as a team. Beckenbauer would be the one anticipating danger, intercepting passes, controling the area/the space and preventing Ronaldo from getting the ball in a dangerous position in the first place, while Schwarzenbeck would do the one on one work, if Beckenbauer fails. It's completely mental to question that defensive partnership in my opinion.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I seem to remember that @Balu was talking about C. Ronaldo at the time? Though it's an ultimate recipe, if the player can't touch the ball he can't do anything with him, plain and simple.

Sounds like you take Beckenbauer's qualities completely out of the equation here? The whole problem with defending against Ronaldo is that you really shouldn't rely on tackling or one on one defending at all. Beckenbauer anticipating the danger and preventing it from happening at all is clearly the best way to deal with Ronaldo. You'd want to minimise the number of times where an all time great striker gets into a dangerous position with the ball at his feet, at least I'd prefer that over hoping to have a brilliant tackler marking him and not fecking up one on one. I also disagree strongly with the notion that Beckenbauer can't play a disciplined role like you suggest in your write-up with the 'but Beckenbauer can’t help but charge out of defence' comment.

It really seems to be common these days to make it seem like a weakness if you have an alltime great defender who's also brilliant on the ball. We had the same with Scirea and Passarella in the last few weeks. It's silly in my opinion. What they can offer on the ball is an added bonus, not a weakness to exploit and against a top-heavy team with so much attacking threat, Beckenbauer certainly won't expose his defense by charging forward.

Here's the excellent post by Balu, it was on the Brazilian Ronaldo. Perhaps the C.Ronaldo one must have been in a different thread. The key thing here was that the 2002 Ronaldo was much more of a final third player and couldn't drop to the half-way line and drive into the heart of the defense like the Barca/Inter one. Cutting off the supply is the best way of dealing with him and the very few times he gets the ball, I would back Schwarzenbeck to deal with him. It's just criminal how Beckenbauer is being underrated by some here. You would think he was a decent defender who would fumble 1 on 1s and is just a luxury attacking defender....

 

[harms]

Yes, thought of a different post in a different thread, sorry.

 

[Joga Bonito]

We can create players and simulate the game in Fifa/pes/FM!
On a serious note - that is some enormous database that they have there, I'm very interested what for and how they are using all this stuff if they are using it at all.

I think they just use those stats to recreate legends on current games. Interesting as they seem to have some decent info on certain relatively unknown players but the subjective ratings are what they are. Has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Raees]

formation change

 

[Joga Bonito]

I would have been more concerned if Zamarano played instead of Michel here.

Hmm

I revert back to my original line-up then. Vogts on Laudrup and most of my original key points now stand

 

[Joga Bonito]

Just to reiterate once again

Key points

-Berti Vogts is going to be man-marking Laudrup, similar to the way he managed to mark Cruyff out of a WC game and stifle the likes of Gerd Muller and Kevin Keegan. Laudrup is the key to his team and you can see most of the football flowing through him. Cutting off/limiting the supply line is going to affect Ronaldo and Zamarano heavily here.


-He has the defensive Chendo on the right flank who won't be able to contribute much offensively whilst struggling to contain the brilliant Brehme-Jensen duo. The legendary Brehme was a brilliant attacking wing-back who also has the Dane Jensen for support here, not that he would need it. Think Raees would have been better served going with Salgado instead.


-On the left flank he has Luis Enrique who was a great player but he has to deal with Hoeness here. Hoeness would be more than able to track his runs and also provide a genuine counter-attacking threat if Enrique ventures forward. The further Luis Enrique is forward, the more area Hoeness has behind him to show his blistering pace. Hoeness was able to do 100m in 11 seconds mind you.


-Without too much of a threat from the wings, you can see play getting congested in the middle for him. Ronaldo-Zamarano have Beckenbauer-Schwarzenback to contend with. Zamarano was a terrific forward who was physical and capable of conjuring a magical goal out of nothing. However, he has anequally great physical stopper in Schwarzenback dealing with him which would limit his threat. Beckenbauer also squares up against Ronaldo and lets not forget that Beckenbauer was first and foremost a terrific defender and then a rampaging attacker. I will take my chances against El Fenomeno with Der Kaiser facing him. Keep in mind that this is not the peak Ronaldo and these 2 forwards aren't going to receive the best of service from Laudrup, with Vogts yapping at his heels.


-Raees has a great midfield trio but I would have to say my midfield trio would be more than able to cope with his due to their brilliant defensive qualities and sheer industry. I think Bonhof and Wimmer were more than good enough defensively to square up against Seedorf and Figo who are great players themselves. Bonhof and Wimmer also have the extra bit of industry to defend, win the ball and then contribute offensively by driving forward when needed. Even my chief playmaker Schuster has one heck of an engine on him and can contribute actively to the defensive phase of the game.


-My forward trio have standard jobs here. Heynckes to be the goal-scoring focal point of my attack. Jensen and Hoeness to provide a bit of ingenuity and creativity in the final third, whilst providing counter-attacking threat with their pace. Hoeness has the additional duty of tracking back Luis Enrique, something which he is capable of, all while providing a bit of a goal-scoring threat in the final third on the counter.

 

[Balu]

formation change

Could you please correct the names to Illgner and Makelele (or if you really want to do it right Makélélé). It really is driving me nuts

 

[Raees]

Woah! Online FM stats? Can't wait for the arguments: "Your midfielder has 14 in positioning which is about NT level, while mine has 17 which is world class".

Jokes aside, come off it mate, Helguera is a terrible choice of a defender to have as LCB in a back three. Sanchís is fine, agreed, and you will be lucky if a past his peak Chendo is more than OKish. Decent at best. Joga's front three would stretch those three and cause them all sorts of trouble, much more than you will at the other end facing a very sturdy back four.

Mate I already said from the OP, my defence isn't the greatest but I do genuinely think it is capable of stopping his side.. it isn't a great attacking force. I remember you being convinced of Jensen's qualities from a single clip where he doesn't even do any wing play? how can you even be sure they'd stretch me?

Like Balu aptly stated here. The best way to neutralize Ronaldo would be to starve/limit him of service as best as you can. You are really playing a risky game if you want to constantly rely on a defender being 1 on 1 with Ronaldo. Heck even defensive colossus greats like Baresi and Kohler are going to be beat by this guy at times. That's why it's absolutely vital that one wins the midfield battle. I can't think of more workaholic or a sturdier defensive midfield than mine to deal with yours. Beckenbauer's defensive nous, organisational skills and anticipation are going to make it harder here for Laudrup to be the supply-line, as well. The underrated Schwarzenbeck isn't an easy one to get past either.

You are going to be heavily reliant on Laudrup here to come up with something. Half of your attack, Figo and Michel are going to be neutralized by Vogts and Brehme here. Your midfield is going to be locked in a great battle between mine. It boils heavily down to Laudrup to do something and he was a magnificent player but it's dangerous to rely on him to be the sole output here. I would have been more concerned if Zamarano played instead of Michel here.



I can understand where you are coming from with the Sanchis being underrated here. I had him on the last draft and many didn't even seem to give him any sort of credit. Pity as he was a great defender but lack of international acclaim has probably hurt his reputation but hey most Spaniards pre-2008 suffer from that.

It is pointless to compare my attack to your attack here mate. No one is denying you have a fantastic attack here and a better one than mine. You have to look at how my defense is going to deal with your attack and how your defense is going to deal with my attack. That is where I believe I have the edge. I will also consider the guys dealing with those three all time-greats to be all-time greats themselves.



Oh what's this http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=184&t=3033&start=20
That's right Beckenbauer is rated as a better defender than your best defender and you don't seem to rate Beckenbauer on a pure defensive note. Come on mate, you can do better than that, those ratings are extremely subjective and must be taken with a pinch of salt, except the Beckenbauer's one .




Sorry, not buying that at all. I can't see how you can say Bonhof and Wimmer aren't going to be able to support Schuster here. He is exactly the kind of midfielder who I can see winning a battle against Makelele, he didn't have a considered approach at all.

I think my comments on Beckenbauer are being totally distorted here. Is he a better defender than Sanchis, duh he's one of the all time great defenders.. but one is up against Henyckes who whilst he is a german great he's not the brazillian Ronaldo, so regardless of Beckenbauer being better than Sanchis, he and his defensive partner are up against a different calibre of attacker.. one which even better defenders than Beckenbauer would have struggled against.

The Pes stats are subjective of course, they're just a decent starting point for scan voters who have no clue about the style or attributes of the players. I doubt they have time to watch individual vids etc and I'm hardly going to use such a site to convince Draft veterans haha who no doubt would be able to produce more accurate player profiles :P.

You've got your wish, I'm giving you Zamorano to handle.

 

[Raees]

Could you please correct the names to Illgner and Makelele (or if you really want to do it right Makélélé). It really is driving me nuts

so sorry pal - will do. TBF he's got Ivan's name wrong too if it wasn't bad enough already. If I lose I'll blame it on the spelling.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I love everything about Raees team except that defense. Figo in a diamond, the formation which I think had him at his best, Seedorf on the other end is great as well. At the end of the day that is one heck of a side Joga has and it'd come as a shock if Beckenbauer with Brehme, Schwarzen and Vogts would concede more than Sanchis, Helguera and Chando. Ronaldo, even in his Real Madrid days - post injury - was a brilliant goalscorer but could also come up with moments of magic. So Figo creating and Ronaldo scoring a goal wouldn't be impossible at all, but the likelihood of that happening just seems quite a lot lower than seeing Joga score here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Mate I already said from the OP, my defence isn't the greatest but I do genuinely think it is capable of stopping his side.. it isn't a great attacking force. I remember you being convinced of Jensen's qualities from a single clip where he doesn't even do any wing play? how can you even be sure they'd stretch me?

Nope he wasn't just convinced by that.

I think my comments on Beckenbauer are being totally distorted here. Is he a better defender than Sanchis, duh he's one of the all time great defenders.. but one is up against Henyckes who whilst he is a german great he's not the brazillian Ronaldo, so regardless of Beckenbauer being better than Sanchis, he and his defensive partner are up against a different calibre of attacker.. one which even better defenders than Beckenbauer would have struggled against.

The Pes stats are subjective of course, they're just a decent starting point for scan voters who have no clue about the style or attributes of the players. I doubt they have time to watch individual vids etc and I'm hardly going to use such a site to convince Draft veterans haha who no doubt would be able to produce more accurate player profiles :P.

You've got your wish, I'm giving you Zamorano to handle.

It was just a tongue-in-cheek comment about the usage of a subjective rating system to justify Sanchis's defensive ability. Just wanted to show that it wasn't the right way to do that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

so sorry pal - will do. TBF he's got Ivan's name wrong too if it wasn't bad enough already. If I lose I'll blame it on the spelling.

We are havin a mare with the spelling aren't we .

I love everything about Raees team except that defense. Figo in a diamond, the formation which I think had him at his best, Seedorf on the other end is great as well. At the end of the day that is one heck of a side Joga has and it'd come as a shock if Beckenbauer with Brehme, Schwarzen and Vogts would concede more than Sanchis, Helguera and Chando. Ronaldo, even in his Real Madrid days - post injury - was a brilliant goalscorer but could also come up with moments of magic. So Figo creating and Ronaldo scoring a goal wouldn't be impossible at all, but the likelihood of that happening just seems quite a lot lower than seeing Joga score here.

Agreed and another aspect to contend would be that his creative influences such as Seedorf, Figo, Laudrup have the likes of Wimmer, Bonhof and Vogts to contend with though. That has to count for something as well.

 

[Raees]

We are havin a mare with the spelling aren't we .

Next draft I am not messing about with this spelling malarkey.. embarrassed the caf. Majority of posts have been discussing our spelling than the actual game haha!

 

[Raees]

@Annahnomoss formation change?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fixed!

 

[antohan]

We can create players and simulate the game in Fifa/pes/FM!
On a serious note - that is some enormous database that they have there, I'm very interested what for and how they are using all this stuff if they are using it at all.

We actually did that once to settle a draw, I think it was Crustanoid (or he was involved at least). 70s draft so roughly represented (not in peaks but names) in a version of CM, started the season with two edited teams and arranged a friendly, then made it play out as a draw so the penos would settle it. Of course, all sorts of moving parts and it took about a day to wrap it up

 

[antohan]

Mate I already said from the OP, my defence isn't the greatest but I do genuinely think it is capable of stopping his side.. it isn't a great attacking force. I remember you being convinced of Jensen's qualities from a single clip where he doesn't even do any wing play? how can you even be sure they'd stretch me?

Not the clip, I didn't even watch it. If he was playing wide for BMG I know what their style of play was and have a rough idea of how he would go about things, then moves on to Real to do much of the same... I'm not going to sit down and watch 20 BMG games to make up my mind on this, you have Chendo on the right of a back three, of course a classic wingforward will stretch you: it's called common sense. Then you have Hoeness at the other end vs. Helguera, which is as one-sided a mismatch as you can find anywhere on the pitch.

I like your inclusion of Zamorano, looks much better now, but you've gone unnecessarily top heavy here with a defence that won't pull it off.

 

[Raees]

Not the clip, I didn't even watch it. If he was playing wide for BMG I know what their style of play was and have a rough idea of how he would go about things, then moves on to Real to do much of the same... I'm not going to sit down and watch 20 BMG games to make up my mind on this, you have Chendo on the right of a back three, of course a classic wingforward will stretch you: it's called common sense. Then you have Hoeness at the other end vs. Helguera, which is as one-sided a mismatch as you can find anywhere on the pitch.

I like your inclusion of Zamorano, looks much better now, but you've gone unnecessarily top heavy here with a defence that won't pull it off.

Best form of defence is attack here... he's going to be sitting very deep to prevent me from tearing him apart. I can't see him mounting enough attacks here to present me with major trouble.. I will concede no doubt, but with that attack I will score aplenty.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Best form of defence is attack here... he's going to be sitting very deep to prevent me from tearing him apart. I can't see him mounting enough attacks here to present me with major trouble.. I will concede no doubt, but with that attack I will score aplenty.

Against most defenses maybe, not this one.

The difference being that my defense is suited to playing deep with some great defenders. On the other hand your defense isn't suited to playing a high-line against 2 pacy wing-forwards. Chendo and Helguera are hardly the most athletic or pacey players here. Ultimately it is more likely for me to hit you on the break than you breaking through my defense and midfield.