I don't get it, isn't this only TRV's second draft anyway? Please share though
His secret is safe with me, it's up to his rivals to work it out I guess
Managers Draft - R1: Gio vs The Red Viper
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
His secret is safe with me, it's up to his rivals to work it out I guess
anto changing his vote
That's what the change vote function is useful for: early feedback for managers, see how it evolves, then make up your mind. The only shame is once you vote you can't unvote, only switch it.
I would be contemplating a draw here, except for TRVs defence apparently being quite relaxed about Klinsmann on the break. He would destroy them, and Batistuta will piss on Piqué, I can't see TRV not scoring, whatever limited amount of possession he gets (30-40% will be more than enough).
@Edgar Allan Pillow you never switched Gio's tactics in the OP
I agree, brilliant side. Legendary defence and b2b midfield duo and Batigol? doesn't deserve to lose in my opinion.
22-24 if I'm correct? Is it possible to withdrawn my vote? I like Gio's team more with Costa on the pitch, but it would be unfair to vote for him because if it would've been a real game than, I believe, TRV would've already had an advantage
@Edgar Allan Pillow you never switched Gio's tactics in the OP
Didn't notice that. Was not tagged too.
Have changed it now.
I think so, yes. Last time, EAP accepted withdrawn votes, if it was clearly stated in the thread. We have to count the votes at the end anyway, so I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.
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I thought we should have started with Rui as well, due to the partnership those two had at Fiorentina.
If I remember correctly, Cutch beat Gio in an all time draft with Rivera in the side. So that might have swayed him.Better tag @Annahnomoss and @Edgar Allan Pillow , so that they know it if they do the counting in the end.
I'm in the same place but on the other side of the equation as I did switch, call it evens.
Just came online. WTF happened here?
Amazed to see how Rui Costa became such a big difference here when no mileage was given to him when I had him in the last draft. And, that too when he wasn't the sole creator in the team and more creative players around him. Here, he is the sole creator in the team. Theon and Gio depend entirely on him to conduct the plays which is why I have Xavi and Busquets on him to press him denying him any time and space on the ball.
Amazed to see how Rui Costa became such a big difference here when no mileage was given to him when I had him in the last draft. And, that too when he wasn't the sole creator in the team and more creative players around him. Here, he is the sole creator in the team. Theon and Gio depend entirely on him to conduct the plays which is why I have Xavi and Busquets on him to press him denying him any time and space on the ball.
Which teams in Serie-A played a high defensive line in the nineties?
No, no, no. I am not denying he is a bigger threat in terms of pace on the counters than Batigol. That is why Puyol there to handle him and I mentioned yesterday how he will deal with him even if he is dragged out wide. Klinsi was a powerful runner. But my point was, that Barca defence at its peak faced a similar player in terms of movement and physicality but much better palyer in Cristiano who had much better control and was more pacy. Yet, it reduced Cristiano's impact on the game to a good extent. You don't think it can reduce Klinsi's impact?
Matthaus in particular was a fantastic passer TRV and he would offer plenty of offensive threat breaking forward past Busquets.
Not high lines by default, but I think he refers to how superior teams would push up and end up playing with a high line against Fiorentina. It would be the case on occasion, but it's not like Fiorentina were a bus-parking relegation side.
When you put it like that, it's fair enough. I pointed out earlier Puyol was a beast and not to be underrated in this setup. I don't think the high line reduces Klinsmann's influence though, it's just part of how you set up, has pros and cons but you have the right personnel for it.
Matthaus was, but like Rui Costa, he also would have to deal with the sort of pressing he never has.
And when he breaks forward and we somehow intercept the play or play them offside, that would leave Xavi and Iniesta free. Together as a duo they embarrassed plenty of teams. For all your talk about the fantastic partnership Rui Costa - Batigol were, and they were a great partnership, they are virtually against a team with great partnerships in Pique - Puyol, Robben - Lahm, Messi - Iniesta - Xavi, Iniesta - Xavi - Busquets etc.
You can criticize Pique for becoming a poor defender now, but under Pep, especially in the first two to three seasons when Puyol wasn't so injury-prone and he hadn't lost his head, that partnership was really good. Both had great understanding between them.
We've got important partnerships too as well as Rui Costa - Batistuta, such as Zenga - Passarella - Ferri - crucial in that area of the park. And there's Klinsmann and Matthaus, two players who absolutely got the best out of each other.
I don't know who it was, but someone had asked why so many are playing the "defending deep + counter attacking" style of football. That is because of this. People only seem to care and highlight about the cons about playing a high-backline, which is, you are leaving space behind to be exploited which is fair enough. The pros, which is the insane pressing and link-up play it allows, no one is considering that. I have never seen a team which haunts in packs in terms of pressing like Pep's team did in those two to three years. It wasn't Pep who started it. But, he was the one who really mastered it. They wouldn't allow any opposition players on the ball to settle and look for the pass. It has to be on your first or second touch or they will press you down and win the ball back or make you give it back to the defence.
As always I think a lot of what you say is correct TRV, so I'm not trying to pick too many arguments here.
I don't think Matthaus would struggle getting pressed though - I really disagree with that. He was fantastic on the ball.
I don't think you would see 70% possession figures either, as I don't think Iniesta/Xavi would be constantly winning the ball from Matthaus/Tardelli the way they could against far inferior players. And then on the flip side, I think Matthaus/Tardelli are fitter, better, ball winners themselves than the norm that Barca side faced.
Pep's side never came up against a midfield like this, which is effectively two of the very best the 80's/90's have to offer. We saw on Saturday how Busquets couldn't get to grips with players like James Rodriguez - I know it's just one game but my point is that they're facing a level of competition they have never faced before, so we can't assume the game would play out the way it does against worse teams.
The Matthaus example is one of the better ones, as Iniesta running towards him isn't going to draw the same type of errors as it did against much worse footballers.
Gio: 14 + 9 = 23
TRV: 8 + 15 = 23
Gio 22 - TRV 21.
TRV: 8 + 15 = 23
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Gio 22 - TRV 21.
In a game of this calibre the best midfielder in the park in Lothar Matthaus is likely to make the difference. Remember how he stifled Diego Maradona at the total peak of his powers, the highest peak of any player ever, in the 1986 final. And then unleashed drove West Germany back into the game from 2-0 down. Or how he dominated the 1990 World Cup, scoring goals like the one below against a top Yugoslavia side. Can we see TRV's midfield offering any resistance to that kind of threat, that kind of dynamic where Matthaus picks it up and drives through the middle of the park? And all in a set-up he is completely comfortable with, thriving under the manager where he played his very best football.
You mean the Passarella who was past his peak?
No offence mate, but I am amazed how you can get away with having Passarella who was clearly past his peak here, against arguably the best club footballer(attacker) of all time. Passarella was a good defender but nowhere near the player he was for River.
Nah, Passarella did very well for Trapattoni. He scored loads of goals and marshalled the defence in the same manner as he is doing here. Here in March 1986/87 is the average rating of the top players in Serie A for that season:You mean the Passarella who was past his peak?
No offence mate, but I am amazed how you can get away with having Passarella who was clearly past his peak here, against arguably the best club footballer(attacker) of all time. Passarella was a good defender but nowhere near the player he was for River.
6,81 F. Baresi (Milan)
6,80 Zenga (Inter)
6,72 Manfredonia (Juventus)
6,66 Magrin (Atalanta)
6,62 Virdis (Milan)
6,58 Passarella (Inter)
6,55 Ancelotti (Roma)
6,52 Tacconi (Juventus)
6,51 Renica (Napoli)
6,50 Romano (Napoli)
He's 6th out of the whole league. And that was a strong, strong league.
The Barca midfield was poor against Real Madrid. It has been for the last one and half odd years, especially with Xavi declining and Iniesta not being in rhythm due to niggling injuries here and there. From a tactical point of view, under Lucho, Barca haven't been pressing aggressively like they used to. They have become more passing and laid-back with their pressing. I don't know if you saw LvG' quotes regarding their pressing under Lucho but it highlights it. Also, where, Madrid annihilated Barca. Not just this game but also the games in the last couple of seasons has been from that left flank of theirs. Last week, it was Marcelo. In the last couple of season, it has been Di Maria and Cristiano sometimes. Alves' positioning has become poor and he doesn't show the same level of effort as he used to in his peak when it comes to tracking back. Madrid as well as Bayern when they defeated them, exploited that area vigorously and that made Barca fold.
Anyway, the point was, while its true Barca midfield haven't faced a midfield like yours in Lothar - Tardelli - Rui Costa, the same could be said about them as well. Because none of them would have dealt with this sort pf pressing or link-up play, where the understanding between the players is almost telepathic.
It was a strong league but how many top attackers did he face in that time? Diego's Napoli was the only one. Juventus didn't have Boniek anymore and Platini wasn't the same player as he had a disappointing season by his reputation and ultimately retired. Milan still hadn't acquired either Van Basten or Gullit then either.
Consider the pace and penetration he would be up against here. Even at his peak, Passarella was suspect against players with great burst of pace as he was relatively slow on the turn. Here, against players like Messi, Robben and Iniesta, who could turn on a dime and have great burst of pace, he would be facing trouble.
His secret is safe with me, it's up to his rivals to work it out I guess
I am clueless here. Enlighten me in the PM please.
Nah the Passarella point is a moot one. Perhaps by the time he retired you would have a case. But his best season in Serie A was 1985/86 when he had the second highest rating of any player in the league. He continued that form into 1986/87 when he was one of the standout players in the league (see above) and Inter conceded just 17 goals all season.
Again. The attack he faced that season wouldn't be anywhere near close to the attack he is facing now. Do you disagree with that?
Juve and Milan were going through a transition. Diego's Napoli were great but Careca hadn't joined him then and he was the only match-winner in that team.
Passarella spent his whole career snuffing out great strikers, winning the World Cup in the process. He was still at or close to his best in 1986 so there's little evidence to suggest he wasn't capable.
Really it's not Passarella but Pique who we should be looking at here.
That's harsh on Trap's Inter side that beat Sacchi's Milan at the height of their powers to a league title in 88/89 without conceding a goal in both games against them. I don't think you can say, Matthäus never faced strong pressing and everything that comes with it.
Paolo is a manager with double votes. TRV leads by YOUR withdrawn vote
Gio / Theon: 14+8 = 22
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TRV 8+15 = 23
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But not when he was at Inter Milan.
I disagree that Passarella was at his best or close to it. Passarella's best was with River. He was a good defender with Fiorentina and later, Inter but nothing more. His performances at Inter wouldn't make him to be considered a world-class defender.
On what basis though? He was the 6th best player in Serie A in 1986/87. He scored truckloads of goals, some absolute screamers, and was a huge threat at set-pieces. And he marshalled a defence that conceded a mere 17 goals all season!But not when he was at Inter Milan.
I disagree that Passarella was at his best or close to it. Passarella's best was with River. He was a good defender with Fiorentina and later, Inter but nothing more. His performances at Inter wouldn't make him to be considered a world-class defender.
Congrats TRV, fullly deserve it for holding your own out there.
TRV 23 - 22 Gio
What a game!!!
What a game!!!
I remember reading about Gullit's injury troubles, otherwise how he could ahve been in that level of Platini, Zico and Maradona etc. So, I just checked. Gullit didn't start in both the games. Without Gullit, their axis of Rijkaard - Gullit - Van Basten isn't the same though.
Barcelona in their pomp always struggled against defensive sides with powerful physical midfields with strong forwards. Gio's side is probably the best equipped side to face a Pep side.. a Matthaus-Tardelli midfield is superior to anything Chelsea could throw at a Barcelona. The defence is super strong, can anyone expect Messi to unlock a defence of that calibre when Messi has always struggled to unlock tight defences? I would have preferred a Robben, Eto, Ribery trio and Messi in behind as the 10. That team would unlock any defence.
Messi will get crowded out in this game, Henry isn't the game breaker in big games that people tend to think he is.. a lot comes down to Robben who is a genuine matchwinner in any circumstance, but he will be running into a already packed defence/midfield situation.. and Gio's team is super physical. There definitely won't be goals galore in this match up.
Up front, Batigol at his peak.. can destroy any defence single-handedly and has done so in inferior sides with poor service. He is in a top class side here and whilst he won't be receiving great service admittedly, there are better attacking units in this draft... on the counter he will be insane.
Messi will get crowded out in this game, Henry isn't the game breaker in big games that people tend to think he is.. a lot comes down to Robben who is a genuine matchwinner in any circumstance, but he will be running into a already packed defence/midfield situation.. and Gio's team is super physical. There definitely won't be goals galore in this match up.
Up front, Batigol at his peak.. can destroy any defence single-handedly and has done so in inferior sides with poor service. He is in a top class side here and whilst he won't be receiving great service admittedly, there are better attacking units in this draft... on the counter he will be insane.