There's a point in there that our consistency is down to team ethic and mentality. Even when we have shit teams, we seem to do well. But with the exception of '54 (and even that team is individually a bit underrated), we always had one of, if not the best team, when we won international titles.
Manager draft - Balu Guttman VS Joga Bonito(Lattek)
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
Clearly, yes. Both the latest winners and the '90 winners were quite obviously the best teams of the tournament. The '74 team was great, pure and simple - and whether Holland were potentially a tiny bit greater (in terms of individual brilliance and/or talent) or not isn't actually all that relevant.
The one team which stands out as being underwhelming in terms of individual talent would be the 2002 runners-up. But they were, precisely, runners-up - so the point is somewhat moot.
The one team which stands out as being underwhelming in terms of individual talent would be the 2002 runners-up. But they were, precisely, runners-up - so the point is somewhat moot.
Probably the worst World Cup finalist ever
I wouldn't say he keeps him in his pocket but this is someone who held his own against the very best of his times. Balu cut down my description to "boring, reliable, got the job done", in full it would have been me likening him to Irwin/Neville. Not worldies or GOATs, they will get beaten on occasion but no one is going to have JOY against them, except The Goat of course.
Aye, and even in reaching the final they didn't beat anyone of real World Cup significance.
Group: saudi arabia, irland (draw), cameron
1/8: paraguay
1/4: usa,
1/2: southkorea
- those three all with 1:0
that must have been one of the easiest ways to reach a WC final ever. tbh it should have been italy in the semis.
Didn't realise they had such an easy run. That Italy South Korea match had plenty of controversial decisions and was pretty shocking.
If I'm not mistaken the South Korean player who scored the extra time winner played in Italy and the Italian club let go of him after that. Bit fuzzy on the details.
If I'm not mistaken the South Korean player who scored the extra time winner played in Italy and the Italian club let go of him after that. Bit fuzzy on the details.
It was a scandalous affair. Italy got robbed, there's no question about it. I don't know if I believe the conspiracy theories, though (I rarely do). Shocking performance from the ref (and the linesmen), however.
Spain were the ones properly robbed.
Indeed, think it was Ahn and Perugia the club? The club President sacked him in a rage claiming he was an unloyal bastard and how dare him repay their faith in him in such a way.
Italians
It was Ahn indeed, his career ins and outs are quite a read. From wiki:
How shocking
Not sure whether to laugh at him or Blackburn Rovers
He is a charmed one!
STOP!
Good riddance. Gentlemen, Ahn Jung-Hwan.
Wikipedia said:
How shocking
They both sound like complete nuttersWikipedia said:
Wikipedia said:
Wikipedia said:
Not sure whether to laugh at him or Blackburn Rovers Wikipedia said:
He is a charmed one!Wikipedia said:
STOP!
Good riddance. Gentlemen, Ahn Jung-Hwan.
Indeed, think it was Ahn and Perugia the club? The club President sacked him in a rage claiming he was an unloyal bastard and how dare him repay their faith in him in such a way.
Italians
Yup it was Ahn and PerugiaBasterds made Maradona cry as well didn't they?
Bump. Here's a half hearted attempt to salvage something from the match.
Bonhof is going to drop deeper to aid the defense against the Eusebio Puskas duo and free up Beckenbauer slightly, to let his intelligence and reading of the game come to the fore in cutting off the passes from Balu' creative midfield to the forward duo. Can see Schuster and Matthaus holding their own and Beckenbauer can bomb forward to midfield whenever needed. Brehme is going to be more adventurous with Wimmer covering for him.
Vogts will also be instructed to tuck in occasionally whenever help is needed and when Liedholm is engaged in the midfield battle playmaking. Won't always happen though and wouldn't have done so if he had more of a left wing presence like Joya on the pitch.
Not going to bring on Littbarski though and will ride it out with Wimmer and Hoeness.
Bonhof is going to drop deeper to aid the defense against the Eusebio Puskas duo and free up Beckenbauer slightly, to let his intelligence and reading of the game come to the fore in cutting off the passes from Balu' creative midfield to the forward duo. Can see Schuster and Matthaus holding their own and Beckenbauer can bomb forward to midfield whenever needed. Brehme is going to be more adventurous with Wimmer covering for him.
Vogts will also be instructed to tuck in occasionally whenever help is needed and when Liedholm is engaged in the midfield battle playmaking. Won't always happen though and wouldn't have done so if he had more of a left wing presence like Joya on the pitch.
Not going to bring on Littbarski though and will ride it out with Wimmer and Hoeness.
There are four voters (plus Pedro, whose vote doesn't count), including THREE managers, on "withdraw" here. Just sayin'.
Fwiw, I really liked your team JB, but have no clue on Balus defensive line, apart from Maldini sr. Esp, Caetano.
Wouldn't be fair to either to vote blind!
Wouldn't be fair to either to vote blind!
I just voted withdrawn as it was annoying to keep clicking the view results button.
NP mate.
I only had 3 managers vote in my thread too. It's all well and good giving them double votes...but not if they don't show up to use it, or refuse to vote
Damn, yes - but still. Two managers plus one regular - get them to change their votes and you've equalized.
Nah I think this match has slipped away tbh. Going to go in about 30 mins and probably won't be around till the end of the match. Well it wasn't as close as I hoped it would be but no shame in losing to such a well constructed team.
@Joga Bonito Good game, mate. You did a brilliant job and it's really sad that you and Skizzo denied each other the chance to improve the team. I would have loved to see a full strength Lattek team going into the semifinal and final.
Pedro and I need to come up with something new for the semifinal now. I never expected to get past the quarterfinals, so I'm out of ideas at the moment
Pedro and I need to come up with something new for the semifinal now. I never expected to get past the quarterfinals, so I'm out of ideas at the moment
It's a good call, there's nothing particularly wrong with that side and the way it is set up, everyone is doing what they did best and being used to the best of their abilities. It is only Matthäus I'm not seeing having his greatest game, but that's because I would rather he stepped aside and let Beckenbauer have one. I think you've missed a trick here focusing on Beckenbauer influencing the game by cutting passes and such, you aren't facing any significant width so Vogts can tuck in and let Der Kaiser rampage around the pitch at will.
It seems I'm alone in loving midfield Beckenbauer, every time I play him there there's a lot of huffing and moaning, but how many made scoring from midfield look so damn simple? Hoeness, Schuster and Heynckes are ideal to replicate this. I know, it's a younger than Lattek Beckenbauer, but I just love the thought of it:
Last time I tried to replicate that setup, even with Seeler himself on the pitch, I got blown out of the water
But you have a better setup for it and face the sort of oppo where it just screams at you begging to be unleashed.@antohan I love Beckenbauer in the midfield. I think you can replace him much better in the central defense with a Baresi or with a Scirea or a Passarella, but you can't really replace what he did in the midfield. Giving him a free role from the midfield to bomb up the pitch and help out the defense as he wanted to would be ideal in my mind.
Playing Beckenbauer in midfield really would go against the manager theme here.
I didn't mean playing him in midfield altogether but, considering Vogts has pretty much feck all to do, tuck him in and unleash Beckenbauer to rampage around the pitch, not just in front of the defence but as an additional attacking player. I'm pretty clear Hoeness can be his Haller, Heynckes his Seeler, and Schuster would be awesome for him to tandem with in the final third.
Question is where that leaves Matthäus, I'm not quite clear on what role I would give him here, probably not those box-to-box arrows but sitting in front of the defence with Bonhof. Is it a great use of Matthäus? Not really, you could have Skizzo's Roth/Lerby in that midfield and it wouldn't be much different.
I just really rate how Beckenbauer and those other three could create real problems for your midfield and backline, if there's one thing that would be alien to all of them that's a libero showing up as an extra man upfront. Bear in mind they largely marked the man for the most part and Beckenbauer would introduce a massive "WTF?" element to their defending.
Oh yes, that's fair enough. He could have left Liedholm to Matthäus and let them have a great battle in midfield. With Hoeneß tracking Caetano and Vogts tucking in, Beckenbauer moving forward wouldn't be a huge risk at all, Bonhof is still around as well. I kinda expected that to happen anyway, seems like a natural thing the way the game was set-up and didn't disagree with you when you mentioned something like it during the game. I couldn' really agree that I believe it would cause me lots of problems, after all I wanted to win the game, so I focused on those damn points in Schüster instead
.@Joga Bonito : good game. Great team. Eventually you didnt get enough credits for some of the player. Sometimes these discussions get momentum, which is hard to argue against.
Oh yes, that's fair enough. He could have left Liedholm to Matthäus and let them have a great battle in midfield. With Hoeneß tracking Caetano and Vogts tucking in, Beckenbauer moving forward wouldn't be a huge risk at all, Bonhof is still around as well. I kinda expected that to happen anyway, seems like a natural thing the way the game was set-up and didn't disagree with you when you mentioned something like it during the game. I couldn' really agree that I believe it would cause me lots of problems, after all I wanted to win the game, so I focused on those damn points in Schüster instead
Sure, it was how Beckenbauer would/should have gone about things but Joga didn't explore or emphasise that at all. I mentioned it, no one picked it up, so I left you to it and left it as something to bang on about later. Cutch could take a leaf from your book
I'm surprised no one else has picked up on that, I only ever keep banging on about stuff mid-game if it gets challenged, otherwise I just mention it to lay down a marker/relevant point and revisit it when it's all done and dusted.Congrats Balu. Well played Joga.
I would never have bet on both Latex going out this round. Unbelievable. I think the divided pool took the gloss from both teams, but then a undivided Lattek team would be totally unbeatable!
I would never have bet on both Latex going out this round. Unbelievable. I think the divided pool took the gloss from both teams, but then a undivided Lattek team would be totally unbeatable!
He needed balu to champion some of his players like anto did for yours. That was not going to happen
@Joga Bonito Good game, mate. You did a brilliant job and it's really sad that you and Skizzo denied each other the chance to improve the team. I would have loved to see a full strength Lattek team going into the semifinal and final.
Pedro and I need to come up with something new for the semifinal now. I never expected to get past the quarterfinals, so I'm out of ideas at the moment
Great game mate. Congrats to you and Pedro. Played a really good tactical game. Esp the move to play Liedholm and Zizinho in a midfield 4 of sorts. Was really expecting you to play 2 wide forwards in Joya and Augusto so you threw me a curveball in that regard.
@antohan That was exactly what I wanted from my tactical change and the reason for moving Bonhof to the back and Beckenbauer forward but I didn't bang on about his forward runs as I thought it was a given. Also had been focusing too much on stopping his attack and neglecting my attack throughout the match which wasnt the best thing to do in hindsight.
I was playing a deep 4-3-3 initially as I expected to face a rather top heavy team with wing fowards but once I saw his formation I really wanted to shift to this.
Maier
....Vogts.....Schwarzenbeck
Bonhof...........................
...................Beckenbauer
Wimmer....................................Brehme
Matthaus........Schuster
Hoeness..........................
Heynckes
Didn't want to do so as it really didn't look like a Latteks classic 4-3-3 Bayern which I tried to base my team upon. It also wouldn't be staying true to my manager if I split the Beckenbauer-Schwarzenbeck duo and played the Kaiser more forward.....Vogts.....Schwarzenbeck
Bonhof...........................
...................Beckenbauer
Wimmer....................................Brehme
Matthaus........Schuster
Hoeness..........................
Heynckes
I didn't catch that or at least didn't see any teamsheet posted. I noticed you said something about Bonhof and Beckenbauer but it didn't come across as any sort of significant change.
No, it isn't a given, certainly not in the way I laid it out, and you did indeed focus too much on stopping the attack so it looked even less obvious.
That looks a bit funny, particularly re: Beckenbauer. You didn't need to switch away from your tactics much either:
Bonhof on the right so he can sit and cover on the right flank if needs be while Beckenbauer is up the pitch. That would allow Matthäus to focus on beasting the midfield and not reducing him to a cover provider, although he may have to provide it for Brehme if Lothar's mark (Zizinho) drifts wide.
I didn't catch that or at least didn't see any teamsheet posted. I noticed you said something about Bonhof and Beckenbauer but it didn't come across as any sort of significant change.
No, it isn't a given, certainly not in the way I laid it out, and you did indeed focus too much on stopping the attack so it looked even less obvious.
That looks a bit funny, particularly re: Beckenbauer. You didn't need to switch away from your tactics much either:
Bonhof on the right so he can sit and cover on the right flank if needs be while Beckenbauer is up the pitch. That would allow Matthäus to focus on beasting the midfield and not reducing him to a cover provider, although he may have to provide it for Brehme if Lothar's mark (Zizinho) drifts wide.
Perhaps I should have been clearer and can see why you didn't fully comprehend that change. There was no other reason to make Beckenbauer more adventurous and push him more forward. He isn't just going to cut off passes and just play short 5 yard passes to the midfielders. He is going to bomb forward which was his trademark.
There was no reason to bang on about it esp with the move to make Bonhof more defensive clearly indicating my intentions. Maybe the bomb forward to midfield comment confused you. It was just to show that my midfield isn't going to lack bodies. Couldn't post any formations as I was on my touchphone. So I had to use their positions to indicate their functions as I didn't have the luxury of arrows. So I'm sorry if you didn't comprehend my move fully.
You said it yourself, it was half-hearted. Completely forgot about the phone situation tbh.
I actually replied to that post saying the emphasis shouldn't be cutting passes and bombing to midfield but completely changing his and Matthäus' roles here. In any case, game is over now, was just pointing it out as I'm pretty sure what Beckenbauer could actually do here was being overlooked.
I actually replied to that post saying the emphasis shouldn't be cutting passes and bombing to midfield but completely changing his and Matthäus' roles here. In any case, game is over now, was just pointing it out as I'm pretty sure what Beckenbauer could actually do here was being overlooked.
Yup fair enough. Agreed with you on the role reversal point.
Ultimately the move by Balu/Pedro to play Zizinho and Liedholm in midfield instead of Joya and Augusto as wing forwards gave him the edge I think. Brilliant tactical move imo, really wasn't expecting that. I would have given my team the edge if he played wing forwards with a midfield trio of sorts with Coluna instead. Just didn't deal with that change well enough.
Ultimately the move by Balu/Pedro to play Zizinho and Liedholm in midfield instead of Joya and Augusto as wing forwards gave him the edge I think. Brilliant tactical move imo, really wasn't expecting that. I would have given my team the edge if he played wing forwards with a midfield trio of sorts with Coluna instead. Just didn't deal with that change well enough.