Don't worry it plays no relevance in my vote here, it is just a discussion point. I think I'll rewatch the 1958 final to get a better feel for his movement in a game. Clips don't give the best perspective of the pace of the game.
Manager draft - Balu Guttman VS Joga Bonito(Lattek)
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
Don't worry it plays no relevance in my vote here, it is just a discussion point. I think I'll rewatch the 1958 final to get a better feel for his movement in a game. Clips don't give the best perspective of the pace of the game.
I probably would have gone 3-3-4 again against every other opponent, but it doesn't really make much sense to be vulnerable on the counter against this midfield and hope to outscore him against that strong backline. But I think my defense can do a great job here.
If I'm not mistaken his only attacking sub would be 'one game played under Lattek in '92' Littbarski.
Littbarski? damn that makes it interesting, exactly the sort of player I'd like to see played in this side ahead of wimmer.. I think his midfield trio is so tactically disciplined and with that defence, he doesn't need a hard working winger too.
Aye, those were my thoughts.
I prefer Joga's defence and midfield but I'm less keen on his attack. I don't know enough about Heynckes for example - though a quick google reveals that he scored 130 goals in just three seasons, so I guess he wasn't too shabby at his peak
Aye, those were my thoughts.
I prefer Joga's defence and midfield but I'm less keen on his attack. I don't know enough about Heynckes for example - though a quick google reveals that he scored 130 goals in just three seasons, so I guess he wasn't too shabby at his peak
It isn't Jupp that is the issue here, I saw some clips of him player.. he is a quality striker, kind of like Falcao .. typical mobile number 9 capable of abit of everything. Capable of some sublime strikes, and had Muller in front of him so obviously wasn't going to reach his potential internationally. It is the wide players.. if you're going to play without a 10.. I want top top wingers to compensate for that lack of support. Players positioned close to the striker ready to counter. One isn't enough i.e. Hoeness.
I think young Littbarski is the one who really would have transformed his attack into something brilliant. Pace, trickery and more goals. Not sure the late in his career playmaking version is a great fit next to Matthäus and Schuster. Either way, I kinda appreciate that he went with Wimmer who played his best football under Lattek instead of Littbarski who played one game under Lattek, but is the bigger name.
I don't think Joga will struggle for central support with Matthaus and Schuster in his midfield. Together they'll contribute more than the vast majority of pure #10's.
Brilliant! Just keep in mind that he's an old mummy by then, but still worth a watch!
It doesn't concern me one bit TBH, perfectly comfortable in dealing with Joga's attack. Caetano kept clean sheets against the likes of José Augusto, Amancio and Jinky Johnstone, I don't see why he wouldn't against Hoeness. Matosas and Ramos are a great combo in terms of style and steel and Maldini shouldn't have a problem dealing with Wimmer. The defence is also very well protected with that midfield trio ahead of them.
I certainly expected Balu Guttman (
) to start with that back four and was wondering how they would go about the rest. Top marks AFAIC.It would be a rather cagey affair to be decided by a moment of genius. In that regard the obvious game-changers here would be Puskas and Eusebio on one side and Beckenbauer and Schüster at the other. No, not Lothar, bar a screamer, but the difficult to defend against exchange I expect is Beckenbauer surging forward '66 style and stylistically I rate Schüster as a better foil while Heynckes can do a decent Seeler impersonation for them to play off. In fact, if I were Joga I would hope Matthäus sticks to defending and leaves them two to it because der Kaiser would be more effective in that final third. Would Little Arnie** take that less conspicuous/starring role? Big question.
With the amount of control of the tempo and possession that Balu's midfield can bring about, and his playmakers'awesome passing, I would expect them to have more opportunities for these moments of brilliance.
1-0 or 2-1 to Balu.
**
Always figured he was a pint-sized version of Arnold Schwarzennegger
[/quote]
Worst part is that the Arnie VS Matthaus picture is real scale too.
do you have tactical concerns about the defence or is it about individual quality?
So you're trying to make up for the lack of points in the op?Individual quality. Tactically, don't see nothing too amiss.. think you've done the right thing by going with a 4, although I'm curious as to your sub?
Mário Coluna, José Augusto, Juan Joya.
Hmm - doesn't seem to be much I can say in terms of you changing it up, think your side looks fine as it is tbh.
You know I'm shit with them points Balü.
At least you know they exist, that's a start.
@Annahnomoss
Kudos for adding the "withdraw vote" option - but it would look tidier if it was simply labelled "draw", wouldn't it?
Kudos for adding the "withdraw vote" option - but it would look tidier if it was simply labelled "draw", wouldn't it?
aj. thats fair. I wont talk up my players to something they werent. In terms of indivudal quality Joga´s defence is better and its almost impossible to match these players. I think Matosas as stopper and Ramos as ball playing CB would form a good partnership. Maldini sticks to what he was best: defending and Caetano balances the team, when we need more players going forward. No doubt that Caetano is no Brehme and might be the weak link. We tried to make up for this with our midfield. Two lines of 4 are always hard to crack down and the central midfield wont do anything too adventurous.
I dont think that there is a huge difference between both teams in terms of quality overall or style (besides Joga focusing more on wide areas). For me the tipping point is, that our attack is slightly more suited to score against a organized defence. Joga´s side is a bit more about power and pace while our side has the edge in terms of creativity, especially when there is little space.
Omar Caetano: a starter for Peñarol for ~14 years, a career that would be the envy of most fullbacks - 9 league titles, 2 Copa Libertadores, 2 Intercontinental Cups, 1x Intercontinental Cup Winners Cup, 3x Libertadores runner-up (always requiring a third final), 1x Copa América winner.
Roberto Matosas: a starter for Peñarol over the first half of the 60s, winning five league titles, 2x Copa Libertadores, 1x Intercontinental Cup and resulting in River buying him for what was at the time a record fee (living up to their nick as "the Millionaires").
Mauro Ramos: an interesting one for this theme, Mauro had won four league titles with São Paulo and was a regular fixture in the Brazilian NT since winning the Copa América in 1949. However, he was a consistently a sub. Too classy, didn't impose himself, and so on. It was actually Bela Guttman that talked him into accepting and believing he was actually the best centreback Brazil had. He coaxed him to grow a pair and come forth as the defensive leader and organiser he could be, which was one of the main motivations in him moving to Santos, where he became the rock their defence revolved around and delivering five Campeonato Paulistas over the course of six years, 2x Copa Libertadores, 2x Intercontinental Cup and, by 1962, making him the obvious choice to captain Brazil at the World Cup, which they won.
Cesare Maldini: a permanent fixture at Mila for a decade, winning four Serie A titles and one European Cup. Made the FIFA All-Star Team at Chile 1962.
Yes, Joga's defence is more proven playing together as a unit, which shouldn't be taken lightly. But then, they face Puskas and Eusebio with Zizinho/Boszik/Liedholm teeing them up. That said, quality certainly isn't lacking here and the coherence/compatibility across these four is spot on.
That tidbit on Ramos is one of many why Gutman is held in the highest esteem in Brazil. It sounds incredible, but his short stint was an integral part of what made jogo bonito be permanently associated with them. Ramos a case in point: it was no shame for a centreback to be good on the ball, rather a bonus and a reason to build a defence around such a player to kickstart play from the back. It changed not just Mauro Ramos' trajectory but that of Brazilian football. By this time Zizinho was having an Indian Summer whereby he primarily brought forth all his experience and football brain to carve out defences, but he too acknowledged how much he had learnt under Guttman and, particularly mind-boggling for a World Cup Golden Ball Winner, how he helped him perfect the way he would strike a ball.
Brilliant, thanks @antohan . I've read a lot about Guttmann and his influence in Brazil but didn't know how important he was for Mauro Ramos.
Same goes for @Annahnomoss and what he wrote about Liedholm. I'm really happy that I got the chance to include Zizinho and Liedholm in the team. At first, I had no idea how to upgrade the side after the first game, but I believe we really hit the nail on the head with those two additions. They give us exactly what we need for this game.
Same goes for @Annahnomoss and what he wrote about Liedholm. I'm really happy that I got the chance to include Zizinho and Liedholm in the team. At first, I had no idea how to upgrade the side after the first game, but I believe we really hit the nail on the head with those two additions. They give us exactly what we need for this game.
That does help put it into more context. Thanks for that anto.
Wimmer himself was an excellent attacking player and had terrific pace with great dribbling skills and crossing ability. His nickname 'Hacki' actually arose from his dribbling prowess. His lung bursting and forceful runs down the flanks were an integral feature of Gladbach's game in the 70s. He isn't a purely industrious defensive forward being on the team only for his industry mind you. He will actually work better in this counter attacking setup than the slower but more technical Littbarski. I won't have trouble unlocking his defense with the number of creative players that I possess. Oh and I wouldn't need a no 10 with Schuster on the pitch.
I get your point about my front line lacking a bit of star quality and I do have Moller and Littbarski on the sidelines, two supremely talented flair players.
However I'm relying more on teamwork, forcefulness, resolve and more impactful, consistent performers rather than the guys who would be in the team for the bit of flair. Just trying to stay honest to the way the Germans played or at least the way I inferred them to. Might bring them on as a sub later on but not really enamoured about taking Wimmer off, these are the type of games that he thrived on.
Sorry I'm on my phone and having a hard time operating it. That's why Im messing up the likes Moller, Hoeneb, Matthaus etc.
Why is there no one bigging up my underappreciated forwards, Heynckes, Wimmer and Hoeness like the opposition's players?
There is way too much emphasis on individuals and neglect of teamwork and chemistry which are my team's forte. The German team of 54 was certainly inferior to the Mighty Magyars individual quality and creativity wise. Same goes for the Cruyff's Dutch and the 74 German team. Yet the Germans triumphed because of their team ethic and spirit. Time to get the Cafs German expert Balu on my case... Oh wait...
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It's uncanny. As I said, I was clear you had to play Caetano here but had no idea how you would make up for it elsewhere. As it turns out both Liedholm and Zizinho fit like a glove. Wingers and crosses weren't going to do it here, you needed credible playmakers/asssisters to break down that defence and Liedholm/Zizinho provide that in their own particular ways, also different from Bozsik's.
Ah well, looks like it's game over. Can't see my team overcoming that deficit. Was expecting a closer game. Unless my team pulls off another trademark German comeback ala Miracle of Bern or the 1974 WC Final. Now I'm just dreaming
All good points, and IMO the right/honest decision, if not the one that best panders to the voters.
I know, no big deal
Yeah, it's a bit of a dilemma for me. I'd love to fight for your team, but it's a bit difficult at the moment
. You won't hear a bad word from me about your players and you did a brilliant job with that Lattek theme, both you and Skizzo did. I'll write something about Heynckes later, I really rate him highly and was surprised how unknown the player actually is. At least I got that impression in a few discussions on the Caf when he was manager at Bayern. He really was an exceptional striker and if not for Gerd Müller would have had a legendary career.Well, to be honest that would have been a perfectly good card to play against a different sort of opponent - because there's a lot to be said for those players and under normal circumstances a lack of so-called star quality isn't something I'd consider a weakness as such.
The problem here, however, is that you're up against a forward combo of...Eusebio and Puskas. That ain't star quality - it's beyond that. And they have an insane cast of players providing service for them too. It's too much - nothing to do with the way you've set up your team. I agree fully with your decision to go with Wimmer over Littbarski (who wasn't the sort of unpredictable trickster you'd want in this set-up in his later incarnation), for instance. But it ain't enough. Your defense is easily on par with what Balu/Pedro sport here - but your attackers aren't.
@antohan Going by Caetano vs Hoeness, how do you think that would pan out? Break even or would Hoeness pace provide some joy for JG?
At first I had a 433 formation with Eusebio as an inside right in mind and Joya on the left. Something like:
But it just didn't look right and you'd want Eusebio making vertical runs and not drifting wide. The 442 became quickly the by far best solution with a back four.
Tbf its fine and I can understand the underrating of my forwards esp Heynckes. Tbh even I didn't know too much in depth about those players and would have underrated them myself if I hadn't done the research in them.
I juat feel that there is way too much emphasis on individuals and neglect of teamwork and chemistry which are my team's forte. The German team of 54 was certainly inferior to the Mighty Magyars individual quality and creativity wise. Same goes for the Cruyff's Dutch and the 74 German team. Yet the Germans triumphed because of their team ethic and spirit.
Not saying your team is lacking in this aspect or anything but I don't know how to portray these intangible aspects of my team which is certainly harder than portraying the individual quality and talent in a team.
I juat feel that there is way too much emphasis on individuals and neglect of teamwork and chemistry which are my team's forte. The German team of 54 was certainly inferior to the Mighty Magyars individual quality and creativity wise. Same goes for the Cruyff's Dutch and the 74 German team. Yet the Germans triumphed because of their team ethic and spirit.
Not saying your team is lacking in this aspect or anything but I don't know how to portray these intangible aspects of my team which is certainly harder than portraying the individual quality and talent in a team.
Fair enough on the Puskas and Eusebio points. Was just hoping my great defense and the German team ethic as a whole could have maybe allowed my team to have a slight edge. Still no shame in losing to such a great team.
That's a fair point. Problem is that there is no clear flaw in the way B/P have set up their side. The latter would have been your way into this match - but as it stands B/P use their players just right (for my money, at least).
And just a generic "German teams have a knack for winning against the odds" argument won't do - even though it's sound enough in terms of football history!
And just a generic "German teams have a knack for winning against the odds" argument won't do - even though it's sound enough in terms of football history!
That's not true. The German team in '74 had lots of internal problems, they hated each other, were fighting with the German FA because of money and with their manager because of tactics. After the loss against Eastern Germany, Beckenbauer stepped up, solved the problems and united the team. They got their act together, fought back and actually played brilliant football for large parts in the final. The performances at the Euro '72 resemble way more what this team was capable of and how gifted it was individually. It's just overshadowed by the beautiful story of the annoying hardworking Germans stealing the trophy from the Dutch artists in '74. We were individually the better nationalteam in my opinion and our performances in '72 were as entertaining as the performances by Holland in '74. No one cares about the Euro though, all that counts is the World Cup, so people remember that team mainly for their winning mentality, which is a bit sad.
Gerd Muller. There's the difference. No offence to Heynckes, I really think the decision making would have been far far tougher (if you can believe it
) if you had Muller leading the line.Yup they had some really talented individuals who are amongst the best in their positions but I just think the Dutch were too gloriously talented and played some unbelievable football. Its no slight on the Germans who played great football themselves but well it's subjective and not black and white.
It also - as you suggest yourself - fits a certain fairytale version of things which has become more or less an accepted truth: Efficiency over artistry (the negative spin) or winning mentality over flash without substance, bohemians with no backbone - or whatever you want (the positive spin). Neither of which is true, of course - but it makes a nice story.
Ah well, looks like it's game over. Can't see my team overcoming that deficit. Was expecting a closer game. Unless my team pulls off another trademark German comeback ala Miracle of Bern or the 1974 WC Final. Now I'm just dreaming
We handicapped each other...I took your offense, you took my defense... and now we could all be on the same plane home
Yeah I was just trying to bring across the strong team ethic, mentality and industry that the Germans had with those encounters. It's one of the main reasons why they are so bloody consistent and successful. Not saying they are limited and just pure grafters, they've produced some proper talents, but just trying to show their superior mentality and attitude that they had. I sound like Hitler don't I?
We handicapped each other...I took your offense, you took my defense... and now we could all be on the same plane home
would have loved to see an unified Lattek team. Would have been great to have Muller and Rummenigge on this team.