Man who burned Quran shot dead in Sweden

[Shark]

he got what he was asking for. you don't have to deserve something for it to happen, you only need to provoke it. burning Quran in front of mosque is like deliberately swimming near saltwater crocodiles. why the feck would you do that? how stupid can you possibly be?

Why should Swedish/European people have to walk on eggshells in their own country. If saltwater crocodiles are inorganically imported into your country it's not the people living there that needs to change, and they certainly shouldn't be murdered for not wanting them there. He did a stupid thing sure, but murder? Come on, it's barbaric.

 

[utdalltheway]

I think thats a major part of the problem. If he burned the book in his home country then people would say he got was he was looking for. But this is in a modern secular democracy.

 

[Mainoonited]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

The murderer had also won himself life in prison.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I can't really agree with the logic in your first paragraph. Don't blame the religion, blame the people who are practicing the religion the way the religion says it should be practiced? The reason I'm blaming the religion is because I know there are plenty of Muslims who don't follow it to the letter and whose views are compatible with liberal values. But the only reason their views are compatible is because they aren't following the religion literally in the way the religion says.

I'm a brown man with a very Muslim name so I'm well aware of the islamophobia and vilification after 9/11. I understand but don't really think it's good justification for the Muslims who doubled down on their views and became more extreme.

Then the first part is true for ever Christian and Jew who isn't an extremist because their books are certainly extreme as well. Every Christian or Jew whose views are compatible with liberal values are also not following the religion literally.

 

[bosnian_red]

Why should Swedish/European people have to walk on eggshells in their own country. If saltwater crocodiles are inorganically imported into your country it's not the people living there that needs to change, and they certainly shouldn't be murdered for not wanting them there. He did a stupid thing sure, but murder? Come on, it's barbaric.

Is not burning a Quran in front of a mosque for no reason other than to antagonize the bar for walking on eggshells now?

 

[Shark]

Is not burning a Quran in front of a mosque for no reason other than to antagonize the bar for walking on eggshells now?

It's eggshells compared to literal murder, yes. As others pointed out, burning a book in Sweden isn't illegal, and even it it was it doesn't justify murder. You can make the point that people who openly antagonist others deserve what they get, but in a civilized European society the most you'd get is a beating, if anything. Justifying murder is insane.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's eggshells compared to literal murder, yes. As others pointed out, burning a book in Sweden isn't illegal, and even it it was it doesn't justify murder. You can make the point that people who openly antagonist others deserve what they get, but in a civilized European society the most you'd get is a beating, if anything. Justifying murder is insane.

Not justifying murder! They'll get their convictions and life in prison I'm sure, and rightfully so. What I'm saying is that this guy isn't some innocent guy in the first place who did an innocent thing. Burning a book isn't illegal, but hate propaganda is illegal in most first world countries, or visual representations of promotion of hatred or violence (literally how it's written in Canadian law at least).

Going to a random mosque and burning the Quran there is exactly that - hate propaganda and a promotion of hatred. It's a hate crime. Nobody should be allowed to do it, and it should get yourself thrown in jail. It's not freedom of speech. Of course vigilante justice in all instances is dumb as feck. This is also seemingly a foreign political power killing the guy, so also a bit different than what everyone is arguing about.

 

[bosnian_red]

I think thats a major part of the problem. If he burned the book in his home country then people would say he got was he was looking for. But this is in a modern secular democracy.

See my post above. In modern, secular democracies... What he did is illegal in the first place. Doesn't justify anyone taking the law into their own hands of course.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Eh I'm sure there's plenty of rural places in the states where if you burn the bible outside of a church that you probably wouldn't be safe.

Even in rural places, I wouldn't be too afraid of burning a bible outside a church and I doubt anyone would ever get murdered for it. I think burning an effigy of Trump at a Trump rally would be more likely to instigate violence.
I also don't think you can say just burning a religious book is a "hate crime" in any way because its not targeting an individual and just the act of burning a religious text is not promoting violence at all. I reckon it's like burning a flag. That's not a hate crime either in my view and in the US, the Supreme Court has ruled that burning the flag is protected first amendment free speech. Burning a religious text is the same.

 

[the_cliff]

It's eggshells compared to literal murder, yes. As others pointed out, burning a book in Sweden isn't illegal, and even it it was it doesn't justify murder. You can make the point that people who openly antagonist others deserve what they get, but in a civilized European society the most you'd get is a beating, if anything. Justifying murder is insane.

I don't think his point was was what happened to him is ok. More so if you go for a walk and look to insult every person you walk past eventually you'll come across someone that will punch you in the face or murder you....

What he did wasn't just 'burning a book'. He was purposely looking to insult any Muslim he can. Yes there should be free speech but when you go around insulting people eventually you'll come across someone mentally insane and crazy enough to cause you serious harm.

Now whether you think the act of burning the Quran isn't insulting is besides the point. The majority of Muslims do find it insulting, therefore, the guy knew he was insulting Muslims, it wasn't like oh shit I didn't know these lot found it insulting I thought I was just burning a copy of mr men.

 

[Bole Top]

Why should Swedish/European people have to walk on eggshells in their own country.

not burning Quran in front of mosque isn't walking on eggshells. very few people even entertain the idea of doing such things, 99% are perfectly fine with just passing by and certainly don't think they're "walking on eggshells" because they're restraining from casual burning of Quran near mosque.

if I'm a River fan and I take a shit on Riquelme's or Maradona's jersey right in front of Boca fan club, yes, I should be expecting to get beaten. I'm not protesting, I'm openly insulting them and I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't think his point was was what happened to him is ok. More so if you go for a walk and look to insult every person you walk past eventually you'll come across someone that will punch you in the face or murder you....

What he did wasn't just 'burning a book'. He was purposely looking to insult any Muslim he can. Yes there should be free speech but when you go around insulting people eventually you'll come across someone mentally insane and crazy enough to cause you serious harm.

This, just with the extension that what he did is also an illegal thing to do in (many) western countries

Even in rural places, I wouldn't be too afraid of burning a bible outside a church and I doubt anyone would ever get murdered for it. I think burning an effigy of Trump at a Trump rally would be more likely to instigate violence.
I also don't think you can say just burning a religious book is a "hate crime" in any way because its not targeting an individual and just the act of burning a religious text is not promoting violence at all. I reckon it's like burning a flag. That's not a hate crime either in my view and in the US, the Supreme Court has ruled that burning the flag is protected first amendment free speech. Burning a religious text is the same.

It's a hate crime because he went to a mosque to burn a Quran with the sole intention of promoting hate. Going to the location to do the act, that full thing all contributes to it being a hate crime IMO.

Also... I dunno I'd definitely say there's a big chance of violence erupting if I went to some towns in the states and burned a Bible outside a church. For what it's worth, did anything happen to this guy when he first burned the Quran, or were people just angry about it? 3 years later a foreign political power sending someone to orchestrate his murder is a bit different I'd say?

Anyways - isn't doing an action in general to incite violence something that can also get you arrested? Just having bad intent? Like if you went to a trump rally, and burned a trump effigy in front of everyone to piss them off, assuming you survived... I feel like you would just get arrested.

 

[Shark]

This, just with the extension that what he did is also an illegal thing to do in (many) western countries

It's a hate crime because he went to a mosque to burn a Quran with the sole intention of promoting hate. Going to the location to do the act, that full thing all contributes to it being a hate crime IMO.

Also... I dunno I'd definitely say there's a big chance of violence erupting if I went to some towns in the states and burned a Bible outside a church. For what it's worth, did anything happen to this guy when he first burned the Quran, or were people just angry about it? 3 years later a foreign political power sending someone to orchestrate his murder is a bit different I'd say?

So do ''hate crimes'' now equal murder? would you like to see murder carried out to anyone in question of one in Europe?

 

[the_cliff]

So do ''hate crimes'' now equal murder? would you like to see murder carried out to anyone in question of one in Europe?

The reply was more to your comment of 'not walking on eggshells' in their own country. As if the majority of all Swedes just want to have a nice day out committing hate crimes and burning Qurans.

 

[bosnian_red]

So do ''hate crimes'' now equal murder? would you like to see murder carried out to anyone in question of one in Europe?

The foreign political power who tried to take matters into their own hands and murder the guy are obviously in the wrong and the people who killed him will be charged as such, not once have I said otherwise. I don't think anyone has ever condoned murder here?

I'm saying hate crimes, or (if you don't think what he did is a hate crime) going to a place of worship and burning their book to promote hate isn't and shouldn't be allowed in civilized societies. It shouldn't get you murdered, but it should get you arrested and charged.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This, just with the extension that what he did is also an illegal thing to do in (many) western countries

It's a hate crime because he went to a mosque to burn a Quran with the sole intention of promoting hate. Going to the location to do the act, that full thing all contributes to it being a hate crime IMO.

Also... I dunno I'd definitely say there's a big chance of violence erupting if I went to some towns in the states and burned a Bible outside a church. For what it's worth, did anything happen to this guy when he first burned the Quran, or were people just angry about it? 3 years later a foreign political power sending someone to orchestrate his murder is a bit different I'd say?

I don't agree with this. I can't speak for additional actions of this individual but in general, just burning a religious text, even in front of a church or mosque or temple, is not a hate crime in my view and it wouldn't be classified that way at all because it is protected free speech. Now, of course, additional actions that target specific individuals could elevate a case into hate crime territory but just the act of burning a religious is not, and should not be called a hate crime.

I also disagree about there being a "big chance of violence erupting" just by burning a bible outside a church. I know some people from rural areas that were very outspoken anti-religious when and that didn't instigate violence. There are things that instigate violence in rural communities but just doing something like burning a bible won't do it (insulting Trump, again, would have a much greater chance of violence).

 

[Shark]

The foreign political power who tried to take matters into their own hands and murder the guy are obviously in the wrong and the people who killed him will be charged as such, not once have I said otherwise. I don't think anyone has ever condoned murder here?

I'm saying hate crimes, or (if you don't think what he did is a hate crime) going to a place of worship and burning their book to promote hate isn't and shouldn't be allowed in civilized societies. It shouldn't get you murdered, but it should get you arrested and charged.

Fair enough, it's a really grey area overall though. I think you can get what's coming to you for being incredibly stupid/naive, a beating or an arrest. What actually happened has no place is Europe.

 

[Eplel]

It's a hate crime because he went to a mosque to burn a Quran with the sole intention of promoting hate.

He was protesting against certain muslim practices. I think we can all agree that protesting against the way hardcore muslims treat certain groups is not "promoting hate"

 

[Bole Top]

He was protesting against certain muslim practices.

did he burn certain pages or the whole book?

 

[the_cliff]

He was protesting against certain muslim practices. I think we can all agree that protesting against the way hardcore muslims treat certain groups is not "promoting hate"

Sure, we should all go to the etihad and burn a City shirt in protest over their owners breaking 150+ rules and expect not one City fan to be insulted.

 

[Shark]

The reply was more to your comment of 'not walking on eggshells' in their own country. As if the majority of all Swedes just want to have a nice day out committing hate crimes and burning Qurans.

That was more in response to the salt water crocodile analogy, was speaking in general.

 

[the_cliff]

That was more in response to the salt water crocodile analogy, was speaking in general.

I know mate, I saw your reply to the post below mine. I'm in complete agreement with you.

 

[utdalltheway]

Fair enough, it's a really grey area overall though. I think you can get what's coming to you for being incredibly stupid/naive, a beating or an arrest. What actually happened has no place is Europe.

This. And to suggest that it does is alarming.

 

[Mogget]

You obviously haven't been to the rural deep south of the USA!

I actually haven't. I'd also say their religious views are pretty backward and abhorrent, to be fair.

Then the first part is true for ever Christian and Jew who isn't an extremist because their books are certainly extreme as well. Every Christian or Jew whose views are compatible with liberal values are also not following the religion literally.

Yeah, I agree. I also think that literal interpretations of Christianity and Judaism aren't compatible with modern European society, not just Islam. The issue is, it seems there's much higher percentage of Muslims in Europe who follow their religion literally than there are Jews or Christians who do the same. Religion also seems to play a much larger role in the lives of Muslims than it does for Jews or Christians.

 

[Raven]

We have already saw people who follow Islam attack and butcher old women in France leaving a Catholic church for no reason at all. Islam has major issues and people here defending this killing because he 'should have known better' will keep making excuses for this religion.

There is absolutely no way to reform Islam, unlike any other religion in the world. This action shows it is built on violence rather than peace.

Terrible take. Brainless even.

 

[utdalltheway]

more brainless than the ones claiming murder is a fair punishement for burning a book?

 

[Redstain]

Every f*cking religion, if you want to follow the text by the letter, is incompatible with modern "western" society. People seriously have difficulty differentiating the religion from how people practice it when making comparisons.

That's untrue because there's multiple passages in the Quran and Hadiths that perpetuate the cause for violence. These notions are found in Surah Al-Baqarah, Surah At Tawbah, Surah An-Nisa etc.

This obviously applies to devout individuals who follow Islam astutely, and as someone else has objectified others Muslims have made the conscious choice to abstain from those ideologies.

The same consensus is not relayed upon within every religion, that's just a lazy and uninformed assumption.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

more brainless than the ones claiming murder is a fair punishement for burning a book?

Or writing one or drawing a cartoon in one.

As an atheist I loath this way of thinking. I'm so precious and so offended that if you question my belief or demonstrate against it in a way I don't like then its OK for me to kill you.

What becomes of the flag burners and just stop oil protesters if this becomes a thing?

 

[Eplel]

Sure, we should all go to the etihad and burn a City shirt in protest over their owners breaking 150+ rules and expect not one City fan to be insulted.

If your group, be it religious, political or any other nature, promotes and acts on hateful practices, and someone protests and calls your group out, and your reaction is to be offended, then brother, you're part of the problem.

 

[Roane]

That's untrue because there's multiple passages in the Quran and Hadiths that perpetuate the cause for violence. These notions are found in Surah Al-Baqarah, Surah At Tawbah, Surah An-Nisa etc.

This obviously applies to devout individuals who follow Islam astutely, and as someone else has objectified others Muslims have made the conscious choice to abstain from those ideologies.

The same consensus is not relayed upon within every religion, that's just a lazy and uninformed assumption.

Your references don't perpetuate violence. Your misunderstanding is a lazy and uninformed assumption.

 

[Roane]

I still don't see the difference to the woman wearing a short skirt at night "knowing what she is doing".

Yeah it's not that surprising. There is still only 1 side to blame.

Your short skirt analogy doesn't fit really.

Let's just agree that killing a person is wrong in this incident. I don't think we should ignore his previous life and that may have had more to do with his death than burning a Quran.

Anyway to the point. Burning a holy book outside a mosque, church, synagogue, temple isn't the same as a wearing a short skirt generally. It's more the equivalent of wearing a short skirt and walking inside a lifers prison to tease and antagonise.

Nobody says the person deserves to be raped or touched for doing it but you better do it with guards ready to shoot if attacked.

 

[utdalltheway]

So some people act like animals when teased or antagonized? They should get counselling if that's how they are.

 

[Roane]

So some people act like animals when teased or antagonized? They should get counselling if that's how they are.

Some people like teasing and antagonising with disregard to consequences. They took should sit on a counselling couch.

 

[edgecutter]

Terrible take. Brainless even.

It isn't. A lot of Christians/Europeans have dealt with extremists and terrible atrocities that all leads back to Islam.

 

[Gehrman]

See my post above. In modern, secular democracies... What he did is illegal in the first place. Doesn't justify anyone taking the law into their own hands of course.

What he did isnt illegal

https://theconversation.com/underst...lipboard_share&utm_source=theconversation.com

 

[Raven]

It isn't. A lot of Christians/Europeans have dealt with extremists and terrible atrocities that all leads back to Islam.

It's small minded nonsense. I guess we should send Mazraoui home because he's incompatible with the west, probably send Salah back to Egypt as well as he's clearly not a good fit here either. People are just people, some good, some bad and most somewhere in between.

I keep saying this but the only way the west can stop the rise of extremist islam here is by changing our middle east policy. It might surprise you to learn that most refugees don't actually like being refugees so if a lot of the middle east wasn't a war torn mess, we wouldn't be seeing the huge influx of middle eastern Muslims into Europe because most would stay at home, happy to live on the land they were born on.

 

[Eplel]

tease and antagonise

That's a rather deliberate set of terms to describe protesting against hateful practices.

 

[the_cliff]

If your group, be it religious, political or any other nature, promotes and acts on hateful practices, and someone protests and calls your group out, and your reaction is to be offended, then brother, you're part of the problem.

Here's the key thing mate. There's nearly 3.5 million Muslims in the UK, more than 30+ million in Europe and 1.9 billion in the world. Burning a Quran insults all of them, not just the minority that promote and act on hateful practices.

 

[Eplel]

Here's the key thing mate. There's nearly 3.5 million Muslims in the UK, more than 30+ million in Europe and 1.9 billion in the world. Burning a Quran insults all of them, not just the minority that promote and act on hateful practices.

Surely it does. But again, if the Muslim community is happy to accept and allow these hateful practices, and not call them out, instead merely get insulted when outsiders call them out, then they're part of the problem.

Much bigger problem than insulting a religion.

 

[hasanejaz88]

That's untrue because there's multiple passages in the Quran and Hadiths that perpetuate the cause for violence. These notions are found in Surah Al-Baqarah, Surah At Tawbah, Surah An-Nisa etc.

This obviously applies to devout individuals who follow Islam astutely, and as someone else has objectified others Muslims have made the conscious choice to abstain from those ideologies.

The same consensus is not relayed upon within every religion, that's just a lazy and uninformed assumption.

Leviticus 24:

13 The LORD then said to Moses:

14 Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and when all who heard him have laid their hands on his head, let the whole community stone him.

15 Tell the Israelites: Anyone who blasphemes God shall bear the penalty;

16 whoever utters the name of the LORD in a curse shall be put to death. The whole community shall stone that person; alien and native-born alike must be put to death for uttering the LORD’s name in a curse.

23 When Moses told this to the Israelites, they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him; they did just as the LORD commanded Moses.

------------

Leviticus 18:22 ~ You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 ~ If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.