Man Utd?

[Feedingseagulls]

Bahama seems to be projecting a modern view of the term 'Man Utd' backwards in time in making many of his judgements.

We've pretty much established that the term had no negative connotations prior to say the mid-60s - so there would not have been any negative associations to stop anyone from using the term earlier and there is good evidence that it was so used.

Bahama wants to label every-one who did use it as a 'pillock' or out-of-towner. This, I suggest, is entirely to do with the later dislike of the term - something that is inappropriate in judging the behaviour of those earlier times.

'Pillock' for using an alternative term with no negative connotations, at the time?

OOT as a desperate pseudo-justification that only people who don't understand United (and how much the term is now disliked) would have used the term back when it was unproblematic?

Bahama, I suspect, is unconsciously re-inventing the past to fit his current views.

The evidence is against him on this one.

'Man Utd' was used validly by Utd supporters, but became associated with ABU-style slogans, and gathered negative connotations, which resulted in most Reds choosing not to use the term and often demanding that no 'real' supporter/fan should use the term either. Sad really.

 

[BahamaRed]

In the 50's 60's and 70's most of the United fans were from Manchester. Games were not shown globally like now and the majority of fans at the games actually lived in Manchester. All that has changed now of course but in those days Manchester United was "United" to everyone. Man Utd - you gotta be kidding me....where are you all getting your information from? I lived thro all those times going to hundreds, neh, thousands, of games...and NEVER EVER heard Man Utd from fans, media or players. That has changed now and many use the term, especially in the media. But no-one from Manchester would ever use the term. If they did then they're pillocks.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

In the 50's 60's and 70's most of the United fans were from Manchester. Games were not shown globally like now and the majority of fans at the games actually lived in Manchester. All that has changed now of course but in those days Manchester United was "United" to everyone. Man Utd - you gotta be kidding me....where are you all getting your information from? I lived thro all those times going to hundreds, neh, thousands, of games...and NEVER EVER heard Man Utd from fans, media or players. That has changed now and many use the term, especially in the media. But no-one from Manchester would ever use the term. If they did then they're pillocks.

Why would people in the 50s & early 60s using an abbreviation like 'Man Utd' be pillocks then - since there was never anything wrong with it at that time. Or did everyone just use the same one word when describing anything?

See quotes in this thread & elsewhere for examples of long-term fans using the term. Different terms were used - with no problems.

 

[BahamaRed]

Why would people in the 50s & early 60s using an abbreviation like 'Man Utd' be pillocks then - since there was never anything wrong with it at that time. Or did everyone just use the same one word when describing anything?

See quotes in this thread & elsewhere for examples of long-term fans using the term. Different terms were used - with no problems.

I haven't seen any first hand evidence in here from any Manchester folks of the time that they used the term Man Utd regularly.
And yes, everyone called United, United. Only OOT's called them anything else. And even those early on never used the term Man Utd
And if you're from Manchester and you call United Man Utd then yes, you're a pillock, cos you should know better. A poor example for the rest of the world.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I haven't seen any first hand evidence in here from any Manchester folks of the time that they used the term Man Utd regularly.
And yes, everyone called United, United. Only OOT's called them anything else. And even those early on never used the term Man Utd

So we have Bahama who insists he can never remember ANYONE going to matches using the trem. We also have numerous others telling us that they remember people did.

Memories are fallible - so bulk of evidence is useful in judging what did happen. Likewise, simply not noticing something doesn't mean it did not happen.

The evidence is against you here.

Furthermore, why would the term not be used sometimes? I can understand that in conversation with other Mancunians (who would mostly support Utd or City) that United was a sensible term to differentiate our team. Yet when talking to anyone else a more descriptive alternative makes sense. You may have viewed no-one born outside Manchester as worthy of conversation, but perhaps not everyone adhered to your localist views?

 

[Livvie]

In the 50's 60's and 70's most of the United fans were from Manchester. Games were not shown globally like now and the majority of fans at the games actually lived in Manchester. All that has changed now of course but in those days Manchester United was "United" to everyone. Man Utd - you gotta be kidding me....where are you all getting your information from? I lived thro all those times going to hundreds, neh, thousands, of games...and NEVER EVER heard Man Utd from fans, media or players. That has changed now and many use the term, especially in the media. But no-one from Manchester would ever use the term. If they did then they're pillocks.

BR, trust me. I heard supporters from Manchester use the term more than once - one guy who sticks in my mind sounded as though he was in his seventies, and I wouldn't have described him as a pillock.

Bahama seems to be projecting a modern view of the term 'Man Utd' backwards in time in making many of his judgements.

We've pretty much established that the term had no negative connotations prior to say the mid-60s - so there would not have been any negative associations to stop anyone from using the term earlier and there is good evidence that it was so used.

Bahama wants to label every-one who did use it as a 'pillock' or out-of-towner. This, I suggest, is entirely to do with the later dislike of the term - something that is inappropriate in judging the behaviour of those earlier times.

'Pillock' for using an alternative term with no negative connotations, at the time?

OOT as a desperate pseudo-justification that only people who don't understand United (and how much the term is now disliked) would have used the term back when it was unproblematic?

Bahama, I suspect, is unconsciously re-inventing the past to fit his current views.

The evidence is against him on this one.

'Man Utd' was used validly by Utd supporters, but became associated with ABU-style slogans, and gathered negative connotations, which resulted in most Reds choosing not to use the term and often demanding that no 'real' supporter/fan should use the term either. Sad really.

And that's a great post from Feeding Seagulls.

 

[BahamaRed]

BR, trust me. I heard supporters from Manchester use the term more than once - one guy who sticks in my mind sounded as though he was in his seventies, and I wouldn't have described him as a pillock.

There's always the exception that proves the rule. Doesn't invalidate the rule.

(and Everton just scored! Get in there!)

 

[Livvie]

There's always the exception that proves the rule. Doesn't invalidate the rule.

That's the whole point though - there didn't use to be a rule!

The rule has been forced on us by scum supporters of other clubs, and that's what my objection is.

Apart from that, I don't like being told what I can, and can't say, and then having my loyalty questioned if I dare "break the rule". Those who don't use the term .. which includes me as it happens...shouldn't have a problem with supporters who do use it, if they're using it without malice.

And I don't like giving scousers and the like, the satisfaction of winding us up.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

There's always the exception that proves the rule. Doesn't invalidate the rule.

(and Everton just scored! Get in there!)

Except, your 'rule' was that no Mancunian ever said it back then - so Livvie has actually given a counterexample showing you were talking b*llocks. Loads of other examples as well.

You are losing this one badly here - if Liverpool concede another then they will be losing about as much.

 

[Grunge]

I've heard older supporters who sound to be in their 50s or 60s, or even older, use the terms when they've called in to MUTV. Because of the controversy that now surrounds the term, it rather stuck out.

"Hey back Livvie"

As one of the "older supporters" i n their mid fifties, I must say I have no recall of any of my mates using the Man Utd term ... can't say nobody did for sure because being "an ancient", some once useful brain cells do seem to have gone missing ... and of all thing things a miss etc.

Anyway, on a midly humorous but related note, as a lad just starting my second year at Sandbach grammar in Cheshire, I had lovely old leather satchel passed on to me that went absolutely every where with me. As was the way of the times I decided to make sure nobody mistook the bag for someone else's and thought it'd be a great to abbreviate the team name on the bag in letters as big as I could make them. If Man Utd had been a well used term I surely would have used it ... not being the best speller at the time and not aware apparently (until later) of the proper "UTD" abbreviation I ended up with massive letters on the bag that shouted; MAN UNT

I can only be thankful the many ABU's (yes there were plenty then too!) didn't know much better and more importantly didn't have the room to add an equally large "C"

 

[BahamaRed]

That's the whole point though - there didn't use to be a rule!

The rule has been forced on us by scum supporters of other clubs, and that's what my objection is.

Apart from that, I don't like being told what I can, and can't say, and then having my loyalty questioned if I dare "break the rule". Those who don't use the term .. which includes me as it happens...shouldn't have a problem with supporters who do use it, if they're using it without malice.

And I don't like giving scousers and the like, the satisfaction of winding us up.

I don't have a problem with anyone using the term. Wouldn't be so bold. I just think if they're Manchester based then they're a pillock. That doesn't reflect on their "supporter" status. Just their personal being.

 

[BahamaRed]

Except, your 'rule' was that no Mancunian ever said it back then - so Livvie has actually given a counterexample showing you were talking b*llocks. Loads of other examples as well.

You are losing this one badly here - if Liverpool concede another then they will be losing about as much.

My rule was that no-one that I've EVER seen EVER used the term. I NEVER EVER HEARD THE TERM. I LIVED United and OT for twenty odd years thro the 50's and 60's. I mixed with thousands of United fans at home, school, games and the term was NEVER EVER used. By anyone.
I'm not arguing hypothetically or relying on some third party pillock. It's my experience. Use it or not.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

My rule was that no-one that I've EVER seen EVER used the term. I NEVER EVER HEARD THE TERM. I LIVED United and OT for twenty odd years thro the 50's and 60's. I mixed with thousands of United fans at home, school, games and the term was NEVER EVER used. By anyone.
I'm not arguing hypothetically or relying on some third party pillock. It's my experience. Use it or not.

I'll rely on the experience of the many who tell us it was indeed used.

So you labelling everyone using it as 'pillocks', despite the fact your own evidence tells us you never remember meeting them, tells us more about you than anything else doesn't it?

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I don't have a problem with anyone using the term. Wouldn't be so bold. I just think if they're Manchester based then they're a pillock. That doesn't reflect on their "supporter" status. Just their personal being.

Why?

You've never, ever met them using that term - there was nothing 'wrong' with using the term back then - so just why would they be pillocks?

NB - that also seems to me to equate to you 'having (some sort of) a problem with them'.

 

[BahamaRed]

Why?

You've never, ever met them using that term - there was nothing 'wrong' with using the term back then - so just why would they be pillocks?

NB - that also seems to me to equate to you 'having (some sort of) a problem with them'.

If I think someone's a pillock that's my subjective view. Why do you have a problem with that.
No one was a pillock back then for using the term cos IT WAS NEVER USED. (except by 0.0001% of the United base as you have pointed out)) Nowadays if you use the term and you are Manchester based then you're a pillock in my eyes. Clear?

 

[Rood]

If I think someone's a pillock that's my subjective view. Why do you have a problem with that.
No one was a pillock back then for using the term cos IT WAS NEVER USED. (except by 0.0001% of the United base as you have pointed out)) Nowadays if you use the term and you are Manchester based then you're a pillock in my eyes. Clear?

Clear as mud

For some reason you keep ignoring the posts from older people on here who talk about REGULAR MATCHGOERS from MANCHESTER who in past times often used the term Man Utd

 

[BahamaRed]

Clear as mud

For some reason you keep ignoring the posts from older people on here who talk about REGULAR MATCHGOERS from MANCHESTER who in past times often used the term Man Utd

Bollox
Which past is that then? I can only speak for the 50's 60's and early 70's. The late 70's and 80's for me are a blurr in a far off land. If Man Utd became popular then it was only because I wasn't there to stop it. 90's and 00's I see only ABU's and foreign fans using the term over the internet.

and try some of this

 

[Feedingseagulls]

If I think someone's a pillock that's my subjective view. Why do you have a problem with that.
No one was a pillock back then for using the term cos IT WAS NEVER USED. (except by 0.0001% of the United base as you have pointed out)) Nowadays if you use the term and you are Manchester based then you're a pillock in my eyes. Clear?

Clear as mud

For some reason you keep ignoring the posts from older people on here who talk about REGULAR MATCHGOERS from MANCHESTER who in past times often used the term Man Utd

Except the percentages you are currently pulling out of your rear are merely your own peceptions aren't they?

Why, we might ask, should anyone who always used to use the term 'Man Utd' from way back before there were any negative connotations stemming from its use by others, now refrain from doing so on pain of being labelled a 'pillock' by someone who seems more intent on being seen 'holier than thou' than interested in anything approaching 'the truth'?

The issue concerning 'people having a problem' is that you say you have no problem with people using the term and yet wish to brand them 'pillocks' which is something of a contradiction.

I also have a major problem with you branding people as 'pillocks' when you know nothing about them, and do not consider the origins of the term as non-problematic, when making judgements about them.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Bollox
Which past is that then? I can only speak for the 50's 60's and early 70's. The late 70's and 80's for me are a blurr in a far off land. If Man Utd became popular then it was only because I wasn't there to stop it. 90's and 00's I see only ABU's and foreign fans using the term over the internet.

and try some of this

As usual in this thread, Bahama simply ignores all the evidence that contradicts his idea that 'Man Utd' was not used - then gets a bit defensive about it.

Then we might want to look at this:

'If Man Utd became popular then it was only because I wasn't there to stop it.' What , we might wonder, made Bahama feel such a campaign would be required? His personal dislike for the term perhaps? A dislike that makes him label anyone using the term before the mid-60s either a 'pillock' or 'OOT' with no evidence to back up those views.

As pointed out earlier, Bahama is taking a later dislike for the term and then retrospectively judging people with different word-usages from himself in negative terms.

As said before - sad really.

 

[BahamaRed]

Except the percentages you are currently pulling out of your rear are merely your own peceptions aren't they?

Why, we might ask, should anyone who always used to use the term 'Man Utd' from way back before there were any negative connotations stemming from its use by others, now refrain from doing so on pain of being labelled a 'pillock' by someone who seems more intent on being seen 'holier than thou' than interested in anything approaching 'the truth'?

The issue concerning 'people having a problem' is that you say you have no problem with people using the term and yet wish to brand them 'pillocks' which is something of a contradiction.

I also have a major problem with you branding people as 'pillocks' when you know nothing about them, and do not consider the origins of the term as non-problematic, when making judgements about them.

There's no arguement cos the term was never used by more than 0.0001% (one in a million) of the United fan base, if that. If people want to use it, fine, but expect people like me to laugh at them and call them pillocks. Does that help?

 

[Feedingseagulls]

There's no arguement cos the term was never used by more than 0.0001% of the United fan base, if that. If people want to use it, fine, but expect people like me to laugh at them at call them pillocks. Is that clear?

That percentage is based on what exactly? That we should take one person's remembrances as more representative than those of many who tell us that the term was used - if not frequently, then at least often enough to be remembered.

I'll go with the evidence of the majority, especially when we see that your value judgements are so skewed on the subject.

By your calculations, there were more than 1 million Utd fans in Manchester (one in a million) - and less than 1 per million using your disliked term. Your origin for these stats is what we wonder.

 

[BahamaRed]

'If Man Utd became popular then it was only because I wasn't there to stop it.' What , we might wonder, made Bahama feel such a campaign would be required? His personal dislike for the term perhaps? A dislike that makes him label anyone using the term before the mid-60s either a 'pillock' or 'OOT' with no evidence to back up those views.

As pointed out earlier, Bahama is taking a later dislike for the term and then retrospectively judging people with different word-usages from himself in negative terms.

Took the bait there Feeding.
And thanks for letting the folks know what I really mean.

 

[BahamaRed]

That percentage is based on what exactly? That we should take one person's remembrances as more representative than those of many who tell us that the term was used - if not frequently, then at least often enough to be remembered.

I'll go with the evidence of the majority, especially when we see that your value judgements are so skewed on the subject.

By your calculations, there were more than 1 million Utd fans in Manchester (one in a million) - and less than 1 per million using your disliked term. Your origin for these stats is what we wonder.

One in a million's a conservative estimate. I doubt it was as many as that.
Oh and by the way I'm not interested in convincing anyone to change their minds over anything like you seem to be. I know what I know. And I know a pillock when I see one. Quite simple really. I make my mind up on my own experiences. You, sir, are quite free to do the same and believe whomever you like.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

One in a million's a conservative estimate. I doubt it was as many as that.
Oh and by the way I'm not interested in convincing anyone to change their minds over anything like you seem to be. I know what I know. And I know a pillock when I see one. Quite simple really. I make my mind up on my own experiences. You, sir, are quite free to do the same and believe whomever you like.

So - population of Mnachester in the 50s? Proportion interested in football? those who supported Utd above Manchester?

Numbers with whom you personally came into contact?



You really are talking out of your fundament here Bahama.






Let's also look at you labelling those using 'Man Utd' pillocks - since you orginally used that term no matter when the people concerned used the term.

I repeat, what made using that term pre-mid-60s, a negative occurrence?

 

[redpie]

The nomenclature of the club and whether it matters is an interesting subject.
I remember as a teenager in in the early 80's standing on the Stretford End singing "We love you Man Utd we do". I have to say it wasn't the most popular song ever but it was definitely sung.
For me it was just a shorthand way of saying United and nothing negative or dismissive.
The term that always grated with me much more than "Man Utd" was just "Manchester" which brings us to date because if there is one thing we can thank City's billions for is the rest of the world might stating the U word a bit more.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

The nomenclature of the club and whether it matters is an interesting subject.
I remember as a teenager in in the early 80's standing on the Stretford End singing "We love you Man Utd we do". I have to say it wasn't the most popular song ever but it was definitely sung.
For me it was just a shorthand way of saying United and nothing negative or dismissive.
The term that always grated with me much more than "Man Utd" was just "Manchester" which brings us to date because if there is one thing we can thank City's billions for is the rest of the world might stating the U word a bit more.

Nice one!

So, according to Bahama's classification system, you and all of those singing the same song must be at least one of the following:

Out-of-towners, not real match-goers, or, pillocks. (Or possibly figments of everyone else's imaginations.)

 

[BahamaRed]

Nice one!

So, according to Bahama's classification system, you and all of those singing the same song must be at least one of the following:

Out-of-towners, not real match-goers, or, pillocks. (Or possibly figments of everyone else's imaginations.)

The 80's, as I mentioned was my dark period.
Interesting to see I have a classification system. I spoke only of the 50's 60's and early 70's, then from the 90's and the 00's.
Had I been in the Stretford End like I used to be and that song started I would have started another chant (and called all those around me pillocks! )

So, let me define my classification (hic) system then, as I have one......

As far as I'm concerned
Man Utd was never used pre mid 70's by anyone except by a couple of caftard's vague recollections of someone talking about United in the past. Somewhere between 0.001% and 0.0001% of the fan base

As United grew and TV and Internet expanded from the 90's and 00's many foreign fans and OOT's used the term Man Utd. I have no problem with that. They know no better.

If a Manchester based fan ever used the term Man Utd I'd think to myself "you're a pillock" (I don't go round calling people pillocks by the way, but I do think it a lot.)
This is my system. I can live with it. You don't have to.

 

[ThatOldRedMagic]

Look it could be worse.. we could be called Man City!

Man C?

 

[Feedingseagulls]

The 80's, as I mentioned was my dark period.
Interesting to see I have a classification system. I spoke only of the 50's 60's and early 70's, then from the 90's and the 00's.
Had I been in the Stretford End like I used to be and that song started I would have started another chant (and called all those around me pillocks! )

So, let me define my classification (hic) system then, as I have one......

As far as I'm concerned
Man Utd was never used pre mid 70's by anyone except by a couple of caftard's vague recollections of someone talking about United in the past. Somewhere between 0.001% and 0.0001% of the fan base

As United grew and TV and Internet expanded from the 90's and 00's many foreign fans and OOT's used the term Man Utd. I have no problem with that. They know no better.

If a Manchester based fan ever used the term Man Utd I'd think to myself "you're a pillock" (I don't go round calling people pillocks by the way, but I do think it a lot.)
This is my system. I can live with it. You don't have to.

You may happily live with your 'pillock' classification system.

I simply reserve the right to question the basis of this judgement.

A load of people (far more than you'll admit) used 'Man Utd' unproblematically since way back when.

Why, since there was no reason for them not to do so back then, do you feel the need to call them 'pillocks'?

 

[ThatOldRedMagic]

You may happily live with your 'pillock' classification system.

I simply reserve the right to question the basis of this judgement.

A load of people (far more than you'll admit) used 'Man Utd' unproblematically since way back when.

Why, since there was no reason for them not to do so back then, do you feel the need to call them 'pillocks'?

It's maybe a Bahaman thing...


(Got quite a few pike lately FS.....)

 

[WeasteDevil]

There is nothing wrong with people calling United "Man Utd", why the feck does it matter?

 

[Feedingseagulls]

It's maybe a Bahaman thing...


(Got quite a few pike lately FS.....)

Great! Looks like I'm busy last week in Feb and early March - maybe last week before close season?

 

[WeasteDevil]

If a Manchester based fan ever used the term Man Utd I'd think to myself "you're a pillock"

He's right here though if he changed the "based" to "bred". It was always United, or Man United when I was growing up.

 

[ThatOldRedMagic]

Great! Looks like I'm busy last week in Feb and early March - maybe last week before close season?

Sounds good. Keep in touch.

 

[BahamaRed]

There is nothing wrong with people calling United "Man Utd", why the feck does it matter?

It really doesn't matter. Nor does it matter if I think Manchester based fans calling United Man Utd are pillocks. I can say that cos I know that very very few, if any, would do that.
Feeding seems to think my thinking so does matter.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

It really doesn't matter. Nor does it matter if I think Manchester based fans calling United Man Utd are pillocks. I can say that cos I know that very very few, if any, would do that.
Feeding seems to think my thinking so does matter.

Yup - because it's a value judgement without objective basis.

Rather like your idea that using 'Man Utd' is a term that brands people as 'pillocks'.

 

[BahamaRed]

Yup - because it's a value judgement without objective basis.

Rather like your idea that using 'Man Utd' is a term that brands people as 'pillocks'.

Totally subjective. Yes. As is most of my support and opinion of United.
Someone who's a pillock to me may not be a pillock to you. That's the world.
And don't forget, I'm only talking about Manchester based (even 'bred' as Weaste rightly pointed out) fans using Man Utd as being pillocks. The rest of the World is too large to generalize over.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Totally subjective. Yes. As is most of my support and opinion of United.
Someone who's a pillock to me may not be a pillock to you. That's the world.
And don't forget, I'm only talking about Manchester based (even 'bred' as Weaste rightly pointed out) fans using Man Utd as being pillocks. The rest of the World is too large to generalize over.

So to try and get you to explain yourself at least a little:

Your reason for calling folks usng 'Man Utd' pillocks, back before it became a problem, is what exactly? (Just some weird subjective quirk or something a little more valid?)

 

[BahamaRed]

So to try and get you to explain yourself at least a little:

Your reason for calling folks usng 'Man Utd' pillocks, back before it became a problem, is what exactly? (Just some weird subjective quirk or something a little more valid?)

Where did I say that?
I do believe I've explained myself quite well and at length.

BR's CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM
50-75 Man Utd never used as far as I'm concerned. If it was it was done in secret.
76-89 Dark ages for me
90-present If you're Manchester bred and use Man Utd you're a pillock.

 

[Rood]

The nomenclature of the club and whether it matters is an interesting subject.
I remember as a teenager in in the early 80's standing on the Stretford End singing "We love you Man Utd we do". I have to say it wasn't the most popular song ever but it was definitely sung.
For me it was just a shorthand way of saying United and nothing negative or dismissive.
The term that always grated with me much more than "Man Utd" was just "Manchester" which brings us to date because if there is one thing we can thank City's billions for is the rest of the world might stating the U word a bit more.

Take note all those who claim that the term has never been used in songs

and I cant even be bothered to reply to rubbish that Bahama is now spouting

WE LOVE YOU Man Utd, WE DO !