Man City 2020/21 - General discussion

romufc said:
I would say that his individual defenders cost him games. He is one of the best managers in terms of stifling teams attacks.

The way he can get a team to win the ball back in the opposition's defensive areas is impressive. Then as soon as a Pep team goes 1-0 up it is a long way back because of the way they keep the ball.
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His individual defenders were left exposed time and time again thats what cost him games. Not the players but the play style. This season our CB's get exposed 2 v 2 maybe once per game if at all. In his previous 4 seasons, it was common to have 2 City players or 3 (including Fernandinho running back) vs 3 or 4 attackers 5 or 6 times per game. If you are put under that kind of pressure that often, you're gonna get caught out more often. It was high risk, high reward football.

The myth those players couldn't defend was just that as 3/4's (I've constantly championed guys like Otamendi but even I gave up on Stones( of that defence are proving this season, along with the myth Pep can't set up a defence. In previous seasons he was happy to concede the odd goal due to being overwhelmed because we could outscore any team. This season we can't score like that so he's shown that we neither have bad defenders nor that he can't set up a defence. He's just changed his priorities based on goals (mostly on Kun)
 
padr81 said:
Wheres the Essien math. AWB 50m, Maguire 80, Shaw 33m, Lindelof 34m, £197m...
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Walker 47m
Stones 50m
Dias 61m
Mendy 51m

= 209

Cancello 58m
Ake 40m
Laporte 58m
Zinchenko 1m

= 157

So your first choice is more expensive and your backups are only a Zinchenko away from being more expensive as well
 
charlenefan said:
Walker 47m
Stones 50m
Dias 61m
Mendy 51m

= 209

Cancello 58m
Ake 40m
Laporte 58m
Zinchenko 1m

= 157

So your first choice is more expensive and your backups are only a Zinchenko away from being more expensive as well
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For the 2nd time I'll say this. I didn't pick the teams, Ser19 did so he could post bollix about our 2nd choice defence costing 200m. He said Cancelo, Ake, Laporte and Mendy were our 2nd choice defence not me. If thats what he deems our 2nd choice defence than he deems Walker, Stones, Dias and Zinchenko 1st choice right? Which means our 2nd choice defence is more expensive than Uniteds which is more expensive than our 1st choice. Maybe follow the thread before throwing insults about math?
 
padr81 said:
His individual defenders were left exposed time and time again thats what cost him games. Not the players but the play style. This season our CB's get exposed 2 v 2 maybe once per game if at all. In his previous 4 seasons, it was common to have 2 City players or 3 (including Fernandinho running back) vs 3 or 4 attackers 5 or 6 times per game. If you are put under that kind of pressure that often, you're gonna get caught out more often. It was high risk, high reward football.

The myth those players couldn't defend was just that as 3/4's (I've constantly championed guys like Otamendi but even I gave up on Stones( of that defence are proving this season, along with the myth Pep can't set up a defence. In previous seasons he was happy to concede the odd goal due to being overwhelmed because we could outscore any team. This season we can't score like that so he's shown that we neither have bad defenders nor that he can't set up a defence. He's just changed his priorities based on goals (mostly on Kun)
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I agree but to play that type of football, you really need the team to play at 100% in every game, whilst that is good enough to beat most teams, they do come unstuck against teams who concentrate for 90 mins and get the luck.

This is why I think this season he has changed it, he has realised some of the players are not at the level they were at, he is a bit more pragmatic in his approach giving teams possession at times and happy to sit and defend.
 
padr81 said:
Not really. The fact you think you can simply hand the best players to any manager and get the best results from them kinda negates your opinion on it. He's had the best defence in the league there abouts every season.

16-17 - 4th best defence. (39)
17-18 - Best Defence (with Otamendi who you guys think is a clown in team of the season) (27)
18-19 - 2nd (23), one goal more than Liverpool (22). 16 goals less conceded than 3rd place (39).
19-20 - 2nd (35), two goals more than Liverpool (33)
20-21 - 1st so far. 13 in 17 games.

In 169 games in English football and 2 seasons considered a disaster by his standards he's conceded 137 goals.
Any team in England currently rocking a better defensive record since Pep arrived?

City: 137 in 169 games (regardless of defenders)
Liverpool - 156 in 170
Spurs - 165 in 170
United - 171 in 170

During that time, he's used Jesus Navas at RB, Fernandinho at CB, a no.10 in Zinchenko at LB, played without his best CB for half of every season, played without his new best CB for almost an entire season (who was then a crock on returning from injury) scored about a billion goals playing non bus park and counter football and still conceded less than everyone in the league.
But he hadn't a decent defence till this season? I'd say his defence has been pretty decent every season, even in his poor one. In fact in only 1 season has he conceded more than a goal a game.
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I was talking in terms of the notion that with dias arrival he's finally sorted his defence. If it was sorted then why does he need to keep buying players. Suddenly Laporte is a sub? Stones is back? It's been scattergun and more than just form. He's just kept buying incredibly expensive defenders and all I've been trying to argue is that I would go easy with putting it down to his coaching ability.

His sub defence is so strong that he can basically rotate constantly and keep a fresh team. And breeze the league Cup every year as even the best teams simply have to use it as a chance to rest. City don't.
 
padr81 said:
For the 2nd time I'll say this. I didn't pick the teams, Ser19 did so he could post bollix about our 2nd choice defence costing 200m. He said Cancelo, Ake, Laporte and Mendy were our 2nd choice defence not me. If thats what he deems our 2nd choice defence than he deems Walker, Stones, Dias and Zinchenko 1st choice right?
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Cancelo ake Laporte and mendy are the second defence at the moment aren't they? Why is that 'bollix'.

At the very least walker dias and stones are starters so I can't be that bloody wrong. If I'm wrong then please forgive, your second string back 4 is worth 150-160m not 2 hundred. He's working wonders with what he's got in that case
 
padr81 said:
For the 2nd time I'll say this. I didn't pick the teams, Ser19 did so he could post bollix about our 2nd choice defence costing 200m. He said Cancelo, Ake, Laporte and Mendy were our 2nd choice defence not me. If thats what he deems our 2nd choice defence than he deems Walker, Stones, Dias and Zinchenko 1st choice right? Which means our 2nd choice defence is more expensive than Uniteds which is more expensive than our 1st choice. Maybe follow the thread before throwing insults about math?
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Was hardly an insult :lol:
 
romufc said:
I agree but to play that type of football, you really need the team to play at 100% in every game, whilst that is good enough to beat most teams, they do come unstuck against teams who concentrate for 90 mins and get the luck.

This is why I think this season he has changed it, he has realised some of the players are not at the level they were at, he is a bit more pragmatic in his approach giving teams possession at times and happy to sit and defend.
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For sure, but thats a flaw in Pep (that he seems to have fixed), its not a flaw in his ability to do a or b, its a flaw in his decision making that he'd rather play style A than style B. Stubborness if you will which is easily his biggest flaw.
 
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padr81 said:
Whats the correct prices because shows me as close
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/luke-shaw/profil/spieler/183288
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/victor-lindelof/profil/spieler/184573

So I was out by £2m... (likely confusing Lindelof and Bailly) Should I get exact fees for the City players and see how far out some on here were?
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Can I choose to go with the BBCs fees because they reported it as £27m. Makes you out by another £7m.

i also hadn’t meant to highlight lindelof as well.

My argument with all this is that nobody has any clue what fees are paid or received by any club because nobody announces them.

Different media outlets report what they want and normally include the words ‘reported’ or ‘around’ because they don’t know.

What I love about United’s transfer dealings is how the fees are always, always the absolute maximum that we might spend on them, again with little to no back-up of the quote figures
 
romufc said:
What has the current XI won?

Compare that to the centurions..
De Bruyne, Aguero, Silva, Sterling, Otamendi, Delph, Fernandinho, Kompany.
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You say that as if Pep wasn't the one who guided City to that 100 points season. :lol: There were also about 8-10 players he bought in that played significant minutes that year.

He has definitely built a squad, look at the list of just some of the players he's shipped out versus some of the players brought in.

Out:
  • Fernando
  • Nasri
  • Kolarov
  • Zabaleta
  • Clichy
  • Bony
  • Denayer
  • Delph
  • Mangala
  • Otamendi
  • Hart
In:
  • Ederson
  • Walker
  • Stones
  • Laporte
  • Rodri
  • Cancelo
  • Mahrez
  • Bernardo Silva
  • Gundogan
  • Jesus
That's a complete revamp in the identity and quality of the squad.

Yes he's spent significant money doing so, but add up the net spend of his tenure overall and it's barely above United's for example over the same period.
 
Amortisation and Wages totals for City, United and Chelsea. Figures from SwissRamble and are in millions i.e City wages for y/e 2019 were £315mil.
Table doesn't take into account cumulative profit booked to P&L for transfers - United £67mil, City £147mil and Chelsea £332mil.

City have spent loads. So have United and Chelsea. Yep, City have spent loads on Defenders but have done well on MF and ATT relatively.

CITY
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
UNITED
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
CHELSEA
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
14/15
70​
194​
264​
14/15
100​
203​
303​
14/15
69​
216​
285​
15/16
94​
198​
292​
15/16
88​
232​
320​
15/16
71​
222​
293​
16/17
122​
264​
386​
16/17
124​
264​
388​
16/17
88​
220​
308​
17/18
134​
260​
394​
17/18
138​
296​
434​
17/18
127​
244​
371​
18/19
127​
315​
442​
18/19
126​
332​
458​
18/19
168​
286​
454​
547​
1231​
1778​
576​
1327​
1903​
523​
1188​
1711​
 
DannyCAFC said:
You say that as if Pep wasn't the one who guided City to that 100 points season. :lol: There were also about 8-10 players he bought in that played significant minutes that year.

He has definitely built a squad, look at the list of just some of the players he's shipped out versus some of the players brought in.

Out:
  • Fernando
  • Nasri
  • Kolarov
  • Zabaleta
  • Clichy
  • Bony
  • Denayer
  • Delph
  • Mangala
  • Otamendi
  • Hart
In:
  • Ederson
  • Walker
  • Stones
  • Laporte
  • Rodri
  • Cancelo
  • Mahrez
  • Bernardo Silva
  • Gundogan
  • Jesus
That's a complete revamp in the identity and quality of the squad.

Yes he's spent significant money doing so, but add up the net spend of his tenure overall and it's barely above United's for example over the same period.
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On the same theme , the squad he inherited in 16/17 included 15 players aged 29+. All had minutes albeit Hart and Nasri had just the 1 game.
The rebuild has seen a huge difference in age profile with only 6 players aged 29+ - Dinho, Aguero, Walker, Gundogan, Mahrez and KDB.

The bid defence spend also factors in the age profile where, with the exception of Walker, is young - Ederson - 27, Cancelo, Laporte, Stones, Mendy - all 26, Ake, Steffen - both 25, Zinchenko 24, Dias 23. All those except Mendy have good re-sale value.

Time is nearly up for Dinho and Aguero and the longest serving players, both pre-Pep, are Sterling & KDB.
 
romufc said:
Some big players say otherwise too... ?

I did say, he makes teams play better, the football is brilliant on occasions. Are you saying Bayern didn't dominate games last season? or Barca in the CL win in 14/15 were dominant too.

What I am saying is, he has hardly built a team.
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None that i've heard, but feel free to prove me wrong though. But from what i've been hearing from his ex players (even those who dislike him on a personal/human level), he's a great coach who made them better. Examples of players who were already considered as great players before they trained with Pep, but still said he made them better are Thierry Henry and Phillip Llam...
 
footballistic orgasm said:
None that i've heard, but feel free to prove me wrong though. But from what i've been hearing from his ex players (even those who dislike him on a personal/human level), he's a great coach who made them better. Examples of players who were already considered as great players before they trained with Pep, but still said he made them better are Thierry Henry and Phillip Llam...
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Thomas Muller.. he came out and said he was confused with Pep's tactics.

Also, if you ask any player who wins stuff with managers, they will most likely come out and say they improved them.
 
romufc said:
Thomas Muller.. he came out and said he was confused with Pep's tactics.
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That's stretching it, a lot. In his interview with the Athletic Müller said that in the big games Pep overthought things and deviated from his normal match plan too much. Apart from that he spoke in very positive terms about the structure of Bayern's play, saying they never attained the same level of organization and control after Pep left (referring to the tenures of Ancelotti and Kovac, and the final interlude under Heynckes).
 
M113FF said:
Amortisation and Wages totals for City, United and Chelsea. Figures from SwissRamble and are in millions i.e City wages for y/e 2019 were £315mil.
Table doesn't take into account cumulative profit booked to P&L for transfers - United £67mil, City £147mil and Chelsea £332mil.

City have spent loads. So have United and Chelsea. Yep, City have spent loads on Defenders but have done well on MF and ATT relatively.

CITY
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
UNITED
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
CHELSEA
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
14/15
70​
194​
264​
14/15
100​
203​
303​
14/15
69​
216​
285​
15/16
94​
198​
292​
15/16
88​
232​
320​
15/16
71​
222​
293​
16/17
122​
264​
386​
16/17
124​
264​
388​
16/17
88​
220​
308​
17/18
134​
260​
394​
17/18
138​
296​
434​
17/18
127​
244​
371​
18/19
127​
315​
442​
18/19
126​
332​
458​
18/19
168​
286​
454​
547​
1231​
1778​
576​
1327​
1903​
523​
1188​
1711​
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City don't include non playing staff wages. They are all sub contracted from a separate "outside" company. God knows how much the players are getting put into their middle east bank accounts off the books as well.
 
Interesting thread. My last marker in here was post #317, which was Dec 12th; the post from there through to now have an amazing turnaround. From writes offs, to sure things to win the league in a couple of months!
 
romufc said:
Thomas Muller.. he came out and said he was confused with Pep's tactics.

Also, if you ask any player who wins stuff with managers, they will most likely come out and say they improved them.
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That's not what exactly what Müller said, but another poster who's actually a Bayern fan has already clearified that after your post.

As for your 2nd paragraph, that's simply not true. It's not a given, but it's something that's very common with players that Pep has coached.
 
M113FF said:
Amortisation and Wages totals for City, United and Chelsea. Figures from SwissRamble and are in millions i.e City wages for y/e 2019 were £315mil.
Table doesn't take into account cumulative profit booked to P&L for transfers - United £67mil, City £147mil and Chelsea £332mil.

City have spent loads. So have United and Chelsea. Yep, City have spent loads on Defenders but have done well on MF and ATT relatively.

CITY
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
UNITED
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
CHELSEA
Amortisation​
Wages​
Total​
14/15
70​
194​
264​
14/15
100​
203​
303​
14/15
69​
216​
285​
15/16
94​
198​
292​
15/16
88​
232​
320​
15/16
71​
222​
293​
16/17
122​
264​
386​
16/17
124​
264​
388​
16/17
88​
220​
308​
17/18
134​
260​
394​
17/18
138​
296​
434​
17/18
127​
244​
371​
18/19
127​
315​
442​
18/19
126​
332​
458​
18/19
168​
286​
454​
547​
1231​
1778​
576​
1327​
1903​
523​
1188​
1711​
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Is there specific valid reason why did you start with 14/15 season?
 
Pace Abuser said:
City don't include non playing staff wages. They are all sub contracted from a separate "outside" company. God knows how much the players are getting put into their middle east bank accounts off the books as well.
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Don't know why City fans get involved in these financial arguments.

Any City fan with a modicum of intelligence & a basic grasp of business financials knows that the club & it's owner are bent as a £25 note.

They are never going to be seen as legitimate so should accept it for what it is.

They are the richest club in the world & will soon have the largest turnover in World Football. They have won every domestic trophy in the last decade & are ever present in the CL.
 
robinamicrowave said:
Probably just easy to calculate based on the last 5 seasons. (And also, it's not his table, it's the SwissRamble's).
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I guess @M113FF should try to understand the situation of the clubs as well. United lost Giggs, Evra, Rio, Vidic and others in 2014 so it makes sense they need to spend more cash for replacement while city still had Fernandinho, Kompany, Silva & Aguero for another 4-5 years together.
 
Pace Abuser said:
City don't include non playing staff wages. They are all sub contracted from a separate "outside" company. God knows how much the players are getting put into their middle east bank accounts off the books as well.
Click to expand...

As for your 1st point, this applies to some and not all. In any case, they are charged back to City and included for P&L in the accounts.

As for your 2nd point, God knows how much United players or, indeed, other PL players have been paid off the books into offshore accounts as well.. but it was reported HMRC have been all over PL clubs at different times over the last 10 years or so including interviews with players and their advisers. Specifically with City we know from football leaks there was a payment to Mancini which was resolved. Also, there was a specific image rights payment/bonus to Dzeko - which was there as a nice to know story rather than anything underhand.
 
romufc said:
Thomas Muller.. he came out and said he was confused with Pep's tactics.

Also, if you ask any player who wins stuff with managers, they will most likely come out and say they improved them.
Click to expand...

Mullers years under Pep were some of his goalscoring best
 
What a signing Dias has been. Mad block from him at 0-0 when Ramsey was getting a tap in. Two minutes later the offside goal happens.
 
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FootballHQ said:
What a signing Dias has been. Mad block from him at 0-0 when Ramsey was getting a penalty. Two minutes later the offside goal happens.
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Great game, you guys were magnificent for the most part. Two harsh goals. Smith has turned you into a fantastic team. Had you maybe had another game under your belt recently you could well have knicked it.
 
Love Foden aswell. He gave so much trouble in the cup final drifting towards the left and did so tonight.

Guess it's not possible but England would be so much better to watch if him, Grealish and even Maddison were all floating off a forward or play Foden a little deeper instead of being concentrated around pace all the time.

The game tonight reminded me of when you beat Leicester 1 nil with the Kompany screamer. You could see Leicester were on the right path then and they've proved it in last 18 months so hopefully we can continue down that path.
 
padr81 said:
Great game, you guys were magnificent for the most part. Two harsh goals. Smith has turned you into a fantastic team. Had you maybe had another game under your belt recently you could well have knicked it.
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But we're told that a few extra days off gives you an unfair advantage even if you have players unavailable as a result of the COVID regulations.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
But we're told that a few extra days off gives you an unfair advantage even if you have players unavailable as a result of the COVID regulations.
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Yeah but infairness the guys saying that were for the most part idiots.
 
They have a brutal run of fixtures coming up back to back.
Liverpool
Spurs
Arsenal
West Ham
Man Utd

We need to pull away during this period if we're to have any chance of the title.
 
GMoore23 said:
They have a brutal run of fixtures coming up back to back.
Liverpool
Spurs
Arsenal
West Ham
Man Utd

We need to pull away during this period if we're to have any chance of the title.
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Draw, defeat, win, win, draw.
 
GMoore23 said:
They have a brutal run of fixtures coming up back to back.
Liverpool
Spurs
Arsenal
West Ham
Man Utd

We need to pull away during this period if we're to have any chance of the title.
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They have the following before they play those fixtures:

West Brom
SU
Burnley

9 points and they could be 4/5 clear on top before they get to the difficult ones.
 
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