What the hell just happened?
LV Monopoly Draft - R1: Onenil vs MJJ/Viva
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Onenil has too many cooks in the middle and total lack of width. Breitner will cut in too and a more traditional fullback might have been better here.
Figueroa, Baresi, Beckenbauer, Scirea and Passarella are personally my top 5.
I'd have Beckenbauer as #1, Baresi #2, Figueroa/Scirea #3 and Passarella #5. Very fine margins all round, almost non existent.
Fair enough, just couldn't understand the 5-7 wondering which two players I can't think of who might be considered better.
If only you could tell me what Baresi did that Scirea didn't.
Only one of them led his nation to a world cup win with the defense playing the biggest part.
Only one of them didn't get ripped to shred by Maradona when he played against them...
While we're at it, I remember there used to be a famous quote by Maradona on who I think was Ruggeri saying something like "he was so strong, he had muscles on his eyebrows, every time I got past him he got back in front of me" or something in that vibe.. Am I imagining that or maybe Maradona said it on someone else? Because I couldn't find it anywhere researching for this. The quote used to be very popular on these drafts.
Maybe two of Krol, Sammer, Hierro, Vasovic, Tresor, Schulz etc purely guessing of course.
Nah, neither in the same level.
Anyway I'm off before I'll make more problems than I already did. I'll be here for a bit in a few hours and than I'll be gone for the rest of the match.. Good luck @oneniltothearsenal and good luck @MJJ dealing with me moving forward if we'll win this 
If only you could tell me what Baresi did that Scirea didn't.
Only one of them led his nation to a world cup win with the defense playing the biggest part.
Only one of them didn't get ripped to shred by Maradona when he played against them...
Honestly? Nothing
Pure subjective and personal opinion. Baresi led one of the best club teams in history and performed some of the finest individual performances(against Ronaldo, Van Basten, etc) that I've seen.
And there's the romantic feeling - with him still being active and witnessing his abilities when I was growing up so that's that
Agreed. Passarella is easily top 5 on my books.
Pretty sure that it was about Vierchowod
edit: yeah, it was. And it doesn't sound like Ruggeri anyway, he wouldn't have the speed to recover that fast
That would be my top 5 too but as to the order - although I'd want Bobby Moore in there somehow, I think other people are better placed to decide that. Haven't seen enough of them all to make a proper order for them.
It is.
In terms of club career - so did Scirea. Don't think there's anything between them when it comes to defensive performances during their club careers and like I mentioned, when they both played against the standout performer of their era - one very clearly came ahead.
Would also say that Scirea had a longer peak than Baresi.
In terms of International career I don't think there's any argument on who had the better one. Baresi had a fine WC in 1990 but it isn't marshalling your defense against the likes of Maradona and Zico and going on to win it.
Personally both are right up there for me, I'm not trying to stir up a comparison but apart from some internet lists ranking Baresi higher than Scirea (they are lists, they have to make an order at the end of the day) I doubt there's really any argument that puts either of them ahead of each other, which is why I don't get why one is rated properly and the other isn't.
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That's not at the same level in my opinion. If I had to put someone in that top tier, it would be Alessandro Nesta. As discussed before if you take out the leadership qualities, creativity and ability on the ball (which was a big part of their game) there's nothing that separates Nesta from the likes of Scirea, Baresi and Figueroa in terms of defensive ability.
There is Beckenbauer and then Baresi/Figueroa/Scirea and maybe Moore, depends on what you want for the system.
Passarella isn't their equal, imo, he is in the second (third if we count Beckenbauer as the whole tier 1) category with some other outstanding names. I won't say that it's an objective ranking, of course, just my two cents
Passarella isn't their equal, imo, he is in the second (third if we count Beckenbauer as the whole tier 1) category with some other outstanding names. I won't say that it's an objective ranking, of course, just my two cents
That's where I would stand as well - of course when you consider the absolute entirety including defensive ability, attacking ability, influence on the team, leadership, career achievements, longevity etc.
At the end of the day you pick the one that fits in your system and beyond that there's nothing to discuss.
Not really into fixed tiers and all that, but this is roughly where I stand on the matter.
Beckenbauer is just something else - goes beyond what any other nominal defender (central or otherwise) can boast. Then that quartet - and I'd have Moore in there, yes. They stand out sufficiently to form a category above the rest.
Passarella would be very high in the next group, obviously, but I wouldn't have him quite on par with that quartet. Fine margins and all, but there you go.
Awesome team @MJJ and @VivaJanuzaj . Bit surprised myself that you didn't start Scirea. For the comments about why Scirea might not be as recognized as Baresi I think its partially, sadly, due to the fact he passed away too young. Even when players retire if they are in and around the game it keeps the memory fresh whereas unfortunately with Scirea, its down more to people either old enough to have watched him play or young nostalgia heads researching.
I'm not really wasting anyone nor I am really focusing on Best and Garrincha. TBH I wasn't the biggest fan of the disjointed nature of all the sacrifice and drops in this draft which basically changed my strategy several times throughout. The boxes that I ended up allowed to build the defense I did and it happens to include two famous man markers in Burgnich and Gentile. The only way I see getting the best out of them is letting them do what they naturally do. I didn't like the notion of just trying to play Gentile as a modern zonal defense CB when that wasn't his main strength. Admittedly its not quite the defense nor the tactic I would have ideally built if not for the random nature of this draft but this was the best I could do with what I had to work with. I do respect some of the other suggestions.
I briefly played around with visually representing the tactic differently but when I sent that tactic in I had just liked how they presented Gentile free man marking roll here:
Maybe you are right and I could have represented it a bit better visually but I think I explained it well enough . Oh and the other silly mistake was I accidentally replaced my PSD file for the tactic with a PNG image and I simply didn't have time to rebuild it.
TBH I liked my version with Houseman a lot better and unfortunately I dropped him when I shouldn't have.
I'm not really wasting anyone nor I am really focusing on Best and Garrincha. TBH I wasn't the biggest fan of the disjointed nature of all the sacrifice and drops in this draft which basically changed my strategy several times throughout. The boxes that I ended up allowed to build the defense I did and it happens to include two famous man markers in Burgnich and Gentile. The only way I see getting the best out of them is letting them do what they naturally do. I didn't like the notion of just trying to play Gentile as a modern zonal defense CB when that wasn't his main strength. Admittedly its not quite the defense nor the tactic I would have ideally built if not for the random nature of this draft but this was the best I could do with what I had to work with. I do respect some of the other suggestions.
I briefly played around with visually representing the tactic differently but when I sent that tactic in I had just liked how they presented Gentile free man marking roll here:
Maybe you are right and I could have represented it a bit better visually but I think I explained it well enough . Oh and the other silly mistake was I accidentally replaced my PSD file for the tactic with a PNG image and I simply didn't have time to rebuild it.
TBH I liked my version with Houseman a lot better and unfortunately I dropped him when I shouldn't have.
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I've got two issues here. One is to what extent Kroos will be marooned at the base of that midfield or will Breitner be coming in and supporting more often than not? Second is the use of Irwin and Sagnol when (a) onenil has no real attacking width, and (b) Scirea is on the bench.
Agreed of course, just putting some names out there as Viva asked who might the others be. Obviously Moore to that list(I thought I had him, but for some reason missed him). Nesta to me falls into the stopper list. He's complete enough to get on that top ten as a sweeper and organizer but would probably compliment an organizer better in terms of style.
Like I said this is personal opinion and they are on the same level to me just a notch below Beckenbauer and above Passarella along with Figueroa. Most lists would put Baresi in front of Scirea mainly based on that 94 WC and for being around longer and having bigger success in Europe at club level - he won 3 EC/CL titles to 1 for Scirea(and 1 UEFA, 1 CWC which are rated less of course). In addition to that Baresi was rated 2nd in Ballon D'Or in the late 80's so it's safe to say he was always rated a tad higher by fellow professionals and journalists during his career.
The 94 WC performance is also mythical and before Barca's recent team that late 80's early 90's team was probably considered the best ever at club level.
Scirea is tad underrated in that comparison I'd give you that.
Yeah, I figured that you took that from 1982 formations, but he was man-marking central players there (Zico and Maradona), so the positioning was justified. But when he is marking probably the most (devastatingly) straight-forward all-time great who rarely left outside right channel it just doesn't make any sense.
Breitner just has to come in midfield for me. Even with the current instructions you have him tucking in which gives no attacking width whatsoever and will be more appreciated in midfield, since onenil only has Garrincha to worry on the right as Sagnol most probably will be in a defensive role to balance out the presence of Garrincha there.
Sagnol role is a bit odd I agree given that he has no winger to worry about and not being a RCB type of full back with his only defensive calling being occasionally when onenil attacking frontline runs into channels.
Is that really true?
What would you say was Baresi's peak years?
Scirea's consistent level at the top in all competitions was longer pretty clearly for me.
I agree that I could/should have represented that better visually than just the orange halo concept but like I said I mistakenly deleted my photoshop file with layers and just didn't have time to recreate it from the last saved point (my Houseman version above).
I was much happier with my team and tactic when it had Houseman in it than I was after the draft finished.
I think Baresi is rated generally higher because he was the de facto leader of Sachhi's Milan's defense, which was a thing of beauty and was truly revolutionary like 70s Ajax. Probably much harder to pull off as well from the zona mista deep defense of Juve.
Baresi was also rated higher among his peers in his own time as can be seen from the Ballon D'or ratings, where he finished 8th, 2nd and 5th in 3 years, while Scirea appearing once at 18th in 82. There is not much between them though.
I'd say from the beginning of Sacchi's reign 87 till 90, those four years, till the 90's WC.
But then there's 92-94 including the 94WC with Capello which I think was pretty close to his peak and Capello pretty much continued with Sacchi's style up until 94 when all of Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten were gone, which prompted a bit of more tactical changes.
Then there's the high line which Sacchi implemented which was a real showcase of his great organizational skills and reading of the game. Not that Scirea didn't have those mind, but zona mista was easier to command a defensive unit.
I see Tuppet also made the last point, which is well appreciated during its time. It was a bit revolutionary moving away from the typical defensive Italian line.
Yeah that makes sense, and as I said there's no taking credit away from that. Wouldn't say it was easier than what Scirea did, because he didn't just sit back behind a defense like a Lucio of InterMilan but played two or three different roles in the team executing them brilliantly - he was the sweeper in the team and the leader of the defense - he was the libero and responsible for bring the ball out into the midfield which he did with great efficiency and effectiveness (and that is something he was clearly ahead of most other defenders, including Baresi) and he also contributed as an attacking fullback down the right a lot of times while still being back in position when the defense needed him. It was a role only a true genius could perform and that is what puts him among the true greats of the game.
Like I said, both deserve great credit, just that one always gets it and other doesn't. And when it comes to performances for Italy - that's a lot more straight forward and one clearly did more than the other.
It's funny because I posted the Baresi quote the other day - which was from an entire interview where he talked about missing out on the 86 WC - and he not once said he would have been a competition for Scirea, he didn't take a second to admit he would have been his backup and he was a season or two away from hitting his career peak then and playing at a great level already.
The Ballon D'or ratings are definitely a big factor and that come from Milan's overall dominance during that time, as you would all of Rijkaard, Van Basten and Gullit also getting high on those rankings back then - very similar to the modern Barca team and when they dominated, you had all of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta scoring high Ballon D'or points.
All in all - I completely agree there's nothing between them, all things considered and we have concrete evidence of what their manager chose when there was a straight choice to be made between them. As from what I've seen, I cannot personally fathom anyone mastering the art of defense better than Scirea, which goes exactly the same for Baresi, or Figueroa. And I've literally never seen a defender so far ahead of their opposition attackers in predicting what they're going to do as Scirea, at points it was unbelievable. Call that anticipation, or reading of the game, or whatever, but he won the duels before they even happened on the pitch - a quality I admire the most in a defender. So yeah, like I said it isn't about the comparison for me but more about Scirea being absolutely right up there with the others and if you have him, you wouldn't have to think about swapping him for absolutely anyone.
Like @Enigma_87 said, Breitner is intended to pay his natural game where he would come into midfield
I think you have made a variation of this post on every match I'm in. You are obsessed with width
Mentioned that in my post above - that is something that is literally Scirea's USP and where he can boast in being ahead of anyone, really. You cannot out-think him, no.
I would have sold my house, and the neighbour's, to watch a duel of Cruyff and Scirea during their peaks. The most intelligent attacking player against the most intelligent defender to ever play the game, in my humble opinion.
I think you have made a variation of this post on every match I'm in. You are obsessed with width
I've known to favor centralized approach myself, esp diamonds. But still...
Width is pretty important, you can see that even the visionary such as Guardiola is positively obsessed with it. Of course more so when you are dominating and have to stretch opponent's defence as in a counter-attacking system you will do alright with smart and fast players who will fill the voids left by defenders (like your offensive trio).I think you have made a variation of this post on every match I'm in. You are obsessed with width
But your system, even if you call it counter-attacking, isn't suited to the style at all - Kroos is disastrous off the ball for a midfielder of his level (which is well-compensated by his other talents though), Breitner and Zizinho are also not the ones I would've chosen for this system... So you'll be naturally winning, or, at least, trying to, midfield battle and you'll need a genuine width when you do that literally no one in your team provides.
I think Scirea always got underrated in the individual awards. It's not like due to the lack of the same dominance(although Milan did win only one Seria A title under Sacchi so it's not the same as Barca sweeping everything under the sun under short period), but you had Bettega, Cabrini, Zoff, Boniek, even Causio making 2-3 times each year the Ballon D'or lists, while Scirea only made it once.
I've known to favor centralized approach myself, esp diamonds. But still...
I agree with both of you. The approach I was originally going for, you can see in my Houseman tactic. 'Vegas' put me on tilt though and I lost my original approach
I always thought that was due to Italy and Serie A to some degree being underrated in that period before their World Cup win.
West Germany and Holland were the sexy sides that everyone talked about and in club competition English clubs were just dominant in the old European Cup in that era. I don't think any Serie A club made the European cup final for a decade from '72 to that '82 Italia win. So I just think most people or popularity in that era was focused on other nations. Plus this was before widespread TV so the Americas weren't as familiar with Serie A sides as they would become over the 80s when so many started to migrate to Italy. At least in my memory that Italy win in '82 had a lot of interesting side effects.
Different tier IMO, with Daniel heading the next one, but not in the same class as Scirea.
Also, the more remarkable trait from him relative to his peers is his attacking game. In this game you need someone whose most remarkable trait is keeping a watertight defence in the face of a great attack. Nobody comes close to Scirea in that regard. No, not Beckenbauer. Only Baresi, maybe, but the defences Baresi marshalled were still excellent without him while Scirea's always seemed distinctly... Scirea's.
Scirea-Passarella would make you walk straight into a discussion you probably wouldn't fancy. It is always best to have pairs that complement each other well, always looks great that.
What does Ruggeri have that Passarella doesn't which can be relevant vs. Ronaldo, Maradona and Luisito? Nothing. Well... Ruggeri vs. Suárez is a dirty cnut trickfest I'd pay to watch. But that's the less worrying frontman there.
IF we are talking pure fantasy, Scirea would marshall the defence and Daniel would limit himself to being Nesta. He would make a great Nesta impersonation. Truth is he wouldn't play ball IMO.
VivaJanuzaj said:
They don't fundamentally alter your gameplan though. It's more worrying for you that he was wrong in Scirea's case and possibly Cashley (Irwin should have started on the right).