LV Monopoly Draft - Finals: Skizzanomoss vs Jayvin

With players at peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
Enigma_87 said:
He was still used centrally long before Pep. I'd rate his best attacking season while LvG was in charge and he played as right back behind Robben. Not exactly wing back with one of the best right wingers nowadays.
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He cut in centrally a lot during his time at leftback, but was an out and out rightback from 2009 -2013 with the short exception when injuries forced him back to the left for a while in Heynckes' first season. Lahm's best season was the treble winning year and he mostly played behind Müller who was more a free roaming 2nd forward than a winger and Lahm provided all the width on his own. Only late in that season Robben came back into the first team when Kroos got injured.

In general he played almost as much time behind Müller than he did behind Robben because of the latter's injury record and there rarely was a lack of width in the team no matter how much time Müller spent centrally. And he didn't have a player like Neeskens helping him like he has in this game.
 
harms said:
You accuse someone (not the first time and not only him) in being biased, he calls you out on that and he's whiney?
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:lol: Feck me, "accuse someone".

Well firstly I think you're being a touch sensitive - it was a joke comment and Balu does unsurprisingly have a tendency to defend German/Munich players. Secondly I think he has been defensive in the thread, considering all people have said is that Lahm isn't a natural wing back (not that controversial).
 
Balu said:
God, you're so annoying with the constant accusations of people being biased
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Balu said:
With maybe the exception of Zanetti because the massive hard-on Aldo and antohan have for him will create enough discussion in his favour to deflect from the reality.
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Are you accusing antohan and Aldo... of being bias?
 
Balu said:
Really? Carlos Alberto was slower but equally cultured on the ball. He didn't provide many overlapping runs but was great in the build-up. He rarely had decisive output in terms of goals or assists and it's no conincidence that he finished his career playing as a centerback.

In general it seems Lahm's pace and stamina gets a bit underrated, I'm not even sure if Gerets had more pace than Lahm. Lahm for example regularly kept Ronaldo quiet, most notably in the CL semifinal against Real in 2012 when Ronaldo then switched sides to get out of Lahm's pocket and Lahm provided the game winning assist in the end.

Despite looking small and thin, I can't remember a single opponent who dominated Lahm physically?
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Lahm has like 20 goals in over 600 games. Carlos Alberto over 70 with 100 games more. Assist count during that time is of course something very scarce but Carlos Alberto sure did provide those overlapping runs. He played with Pele at Santos and when talking about that WC70 goal Pele always said he naturally knew where Carlos Alberto will be and passed into space. He expected those overlapping runs.

For the record Lahm is for me one of the most balanced full backs in the game and one of the best in the last 20-25 years. However I rate fair few full backs better in pure attacking sense and stretching up the flank rather than him, especially in this set up.
 
Balu said:
No, I think both overrate Zanetti. Not surprised you can't see the difference thoiugh.
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I think you overrate Lahm offensively and how suited he is to a wingback role.

As I said, not sure what the problem is here so we can just agree to disagree. As I said before I think Zanetti is a better fit for that role as well actually (neither are perfect fits, not massive amounts in it).
 
Balu said:
He cut in centrally a lot during his time at leftback, but was an out and out rightback from 2009 -2013 with the short exception when injuries forced him back to the left for a while in Heynckes' first season. Lahm's best season was the treble winning year and he mostly played behind Müller who was more a free roaming 2nd forward than a winger and Lahm provided all the width on his own. Only late in that season Robben came back into the first team when Kroos got injured.

In general he played almost as much time behind Müller than he did behind Robben because of the latter's injury record and there rarely was a lack of width in the team no matter how much time Müller spent centrally. And he didn't have a player like Neeskens helping him like he has in this game.
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In pure attacking sense?
 
Enigma_87 said:
In pure attacking sense?
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Yeah, no doubt about that. He was way more influential for us than in van Gaal's season when he was mostly used as a dummy runner to give Robben space to do his thing.
 
Theon said:
I think you overrate Lahm offensively and how suited he is to a wingback role.
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Which is a fair opinion. If you actually had backed it up with Lahm's performances instead of saying I'm biased about Lahm because he played for Bayern/Germany, implying that my opinion can't be taken seriously, no one would have called you out on your stupid post.
 
Balu said:
Yeah, no doubt about that. He was way more influential for us than in van Gaal's season when he was mostly used as a dummy runner to give Robben space to do his thing.
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aye fair do's. Still I thought he was better in that van Gaal's season and he racked some goals and assists on the way and also being on the right, as used here.
 
Enigma_87 said:
aye fair do's. Still I thought he was better in that van Gaal's season and he racked some goals and assists on the way and also being on the right, as used here.
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19 assists in 12/13, 1 goal and 12 assists in 09/10.
 
I think there's a tendency not to recognise that any full-back at an elite club which dominates 70% of the ball and gets 90 points a season is fulfilling a more attacking role than many of the wing-backs from the 3-5-2s of the 1970s-1990s. Transitions happen less frequently in the modern game and there's more horizontal build-up so it allows the time for full-backs to join the attack.

I think Lahm/Netto are functionally solid here. Just a little underwhelming in a full-back comparison set against Thuram and Facchetti on the other side.
 
Balu said:
Thank god for that post. Unless you pick Cafu as a right wingback, you can't play a 532 because everyone else is just flawed. With maybe the exception of Zanetti because the massive hard-on Aldo and antohan have for him will create enough discussion in his favour to deflect from the reality. It's truely ridiculous.
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What the hell did I get dragged into it for? :| I've not said anything about Lahm.

And sorry, didn't know that we were robots and aren't allowed to have personal preferences. How dare me.
 
In terms of team design, no issues with SkizzoAnnah here. Pele was often considered an inside-left in the early 1960s and you can see Suarez foraging around that duo quite well. The point made about Netto/Edwards and Neeskens/Lahm is a good one - always liked how Anderton/Beckham dovetailed for Hoddle's 3-5-2 for England.
 
Balu said:
Which is a fair opinion. If you actually had backed it up with Lahm's performances instead of saying I'm biased about Lahm because he played for Bayern/Germany, implying that my opinion can't be taken seriously, no one would have called you out on your stupid post.
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Jesus, you need to get a grip - seriously.

This is what i said:
Theon said:
Knew you would get involved in this as soon as a German/Munich player was even slightly criticised ;).
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It was a light-hearted comment because you do have a tendency to defend German/Munich players.

I really don't see why you're that upset or arsed, particularly how within 10 minutes you went off and started claiming that other posters were overrating players of their own. No one else is getting all sensitive about it, just chill out.
 
harms said:
The only thing that Gerets have on Lahm as a wingback is his pace and engine, which doesn't make him more attacking or a better wingback
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Probably have to disagree with this point. Wingback is the most physically demanding position on the park so I think engine and pace do matter there.
 
Gio said:
I think there's a tendency not to recognise that any full-back at an elite club which dominates 70% of the ball and gets 90 points a season is fulfilling a more attacking role than many of the wing-backs from the 3-5-2s of the 1970s-1990s. Transitions happen less frequently in the modern game and there's more horizontal build-up so it allows the time for full-backs to join the attack.

I think Lahm/Netto are functionally solid here. Just a little underwhelming in a full-back comparison set against Thuram and Facchetti on the other side.
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Great way to put it! I do think that our side resembles the Napoli side that Maradona played in though
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where Francini would frequently make runs towards the box rather than down the flank which would be similar to what Netto would do here. He was also more of a defensively solid, great header, type of full back and not a wing back by any means. Bruscolotti was called the "Iron pole" notable for his great defensive abilities like marking, strength and hard tackling.

The Maradona show always tended to be more about him, his strikers being the right fit and then the runners around him. Romano was a deep lying playmaker and is similar to Beckenbauer here for us in possession.

One could even argue that Maradona would be easier to question in a team that does play with width, where not everything goes through him, rather than the opposite. Even if the Napoli side makes no sense tactically and would fall apart without Maradona, he made it work by being the best individualist football has ever seen.

 
Gio said:
Probably have to disagree with this point. Wingback is the most physically demanding position on the park so I think engine and pace do matter there.
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Yes, but with Neeskens here it's not critical. Important, but not critical
 
Jayvin said:
Doesn't cater to him well? I'm not sure about that, I think Davids and Keane provide a great platform for Platini to perform at his best, while your second statement about strikers peeling wide seems a bit strange since I have Thierry Henry on that side.
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In fairness to @Annahnomoss, he makes a good point in terms of the forwards. I haven't been entirely convinced by it myself.

Peak Henry will drift from left to centre, when Platini requires the opposite (decongesting, not congesting the central areas). I think he can perform to instructions but someone like Del Piero would be a better fit.

Jairzinho is fine although, again, he isn't a Bettega drifting to the wide areas to create space, or a Boniek marauding across the front to drag markers away.

Romario is a very different kind of striker to Rossi as well. I'm still not clear whether it works or clashes completely. I guess we'll never know, hehe.

But then, it's not like everyone should be picked for Platini to shine brightest and score himself.
 
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Annahnomoss said:
How do people see Platini performing in a team that doesn't cater to him very well? He used to play with strikers who peeled out wide for him to push through and where he was the main goalscorer, diamonds perfectly built around him. Honest question, I can't make my own mind up on that one. Does he still score the goals? If he doesn't, there should be a few more natural fits for the role and it would take away a major part of what has Platini considered a GOAT.
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Henry was renowned for peeling left - can see that working like a charm.
 
Theon said:
Jesus, you need to get a grip - seriously.

This is what i said:


It was a light-hearted comment because you do have a tendency to defend German/Munich players.

I really don't see why you're that upset or arsed, particularly how within 10 minutes you went off and started claiming that other posters were overrating players of their own. No one else is getting all sensitive about it, just chill out.
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You do have a tendency to discredit people by alluding to bias. It's just seedy South Americans are less fussed about having their objectivity questioned than Germans would.
 
antohan said:
In fairness to @Annahnomoss, he makes a good point in terms of the forwards. I haven't been entirely convinced by it myself.
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My main problem with Jayvin's team. The back 8 is pretty much perfect but the set of forwards look like they are picked for a different set-up. Not an awful fit but not an ideal one either
 
harms said:
My main problem with Jayvin's team. The back 8 is pretty much perfect but the set of forwards look like they are picked for a different set-up. Not an awful fit but not an ideal one either
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Agreed to some extend, but do you see Pele and Maradona being ideal?
 
Gio said:
Probably have to disagree with this point. Wingback is the most physically demanding position on the park so I think engine and pace do matter there.
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But Lahm doesn't lack stamina or an engine or whatever anyway. He regularly ran the biggest distance in his teams both for club and country while also playing the most minutes throughout a season. You won't find any games where he was getting tired towards the end either, it's actually the opposite with him often getting involved in crucial attacking moves towards the end when most players were already tired.
 
Aldo said:
What the hell did I get dragged into it for? :| I've not said anything about Lahm.

And sorry, didn't know that we were robots and aren't allowed to have personal preferences. How dare me.
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??? I love your love for Zanetti. I actually find it cute and don't mind it at all. That wasn't the point of the post at all.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Agreed to some extend, but do you see Pele and Maradona being ideal?
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Nope, not ideal, but with this system I think they'd work quite well - with Suarez, Edwards, Neeskens, Netto and Lahm being their selfless helpers. And they simply have more sheer class in them anyway.
 
Balu said:
??? I love your love for Zanetti. I actually find it cute and don't mind it at all. That wasn't the point of the post at all.
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It always goes wrong when you turn to the dark side mate.
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harms said:
My main problem with Jayvin's team. The back 8 is pretty much perfect but the set of forwards look like they are picked for a different set-up. Not an awful fit but not an ideal one either
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I think the forwards are a good fit, Henry in particular is perfect for this kind of set up. Against a back three ideally I'd like to have a right winger who will provide a bit more width than Jairzinho, but with such a solid RB behind him he has the freedom to roam around and dovetail with Platini and the forwards well. Also I'd say any attacking midfielder who likes to get into the box and shoot would love to play with a slippery little bugger like Romario attracting defenders towards him.
 
Balu said:
But Lahm doesn't lack stamina or an engine or whatever anyway. He regularly ran the biggest distance in his teams both for club and country while also playing the most minutes throughout a season. You won't find any games where he was getting tired towards the end either, it's actually the opposite with him often getting involved in crucial attacking moves towards the end when most players were already tired.
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I agree. My point was more generic responding to what Harms said.
 
Downcast said:
At least we can all agree that Lahm is MOTM :smirk:
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:lol: All this focus on him makes no sense. These kind of games annoy me where some absurd debate would occupy the whole match thread for no good reason.

I am surprised at the scoreline as well.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Ffs if Lahm is struggling to provide width as a RWB and is considered underwhelming, then I'd seriously like to know who are all the other right backs out there who would be 'final-worthy width providing specimens'. Apart from Cafu obviously.

Carlos Alberto - Nope, not a wing-back, although he could provide width and playmaking impetus from the flanks. Lahm's better as a wing back.

Zanetti - More of an engine on him but less end product. Not much difference to Lahm and I'd prefer the German for his attacking output and creativity, although some might prefer Zanetti.

Djalma - Not a wing-back.

Brehme - Versatile enough to play there and pretty damn good but peak came as a LWB.

Sport Amoros, Kaltz, Alves etc and they won't be considered 'final-worthy' and/or be torn a new one by the LWF/LW or LWB.
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I don't think the quality is the issue here, rather the fact that Lahm's peak came in a back 4 and not a 5 man system is what people are getting at here. e.g. someone like Zambrotta might be an inferior player but he spent his career as a wingback in a 5-man backline and it is easier to visualise him there. Also, overlapping outside a winger and being the sole provider of width are two different things. That's what I assume people are getting at, I personally don't have a problem with it.

Having read the thread I can't see how it became such a heated discussion from both sides. I don't think anyone had a major issue with it, and was mainly meant as a technical remark which at this stage is can make a difference. Don't think anyone meant that he would be useless there or anything, so a bit bizarre to see have pages revolving around it.
 
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