Ludo Draft QF - GodShaveTheQueen vs. Zlatan 7

[Indnyc]

That is odd considering Didi was brought in at Madrid to eventually replace and take Di Stefano's role.

Di Stefano to Didi at his unveiling -

Yes but that doesn’t mean they played in the same way.. I would say Didi started deeper and attacked whilst Di Stefano started further ahead and dropped deeper.

Maybe it’s me but I don’t 100% buy Di Stefano in a 2 man midfield (Understand Zagallos role here as the 3rd man)

 

[Zlatan 7]

My thinking too re Di Stefano in the two man midfield and did try pointing it out earlier. Zito will have hell of a lot of work to cover as I don’t think Di Stefano suits back there and would more time forward.

I’d definitely have more of the ball in this match and dominate the midfield, I’d have Carlos overlapping down the left with no cover from Garrincha. Del Piero and ronaldo a the end of the solid base. I think I’d get enough chances to outscore your counter attacks down the right

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yes but that doesn’t mean they played in the same way.. I would say Didi started deeper and attacked whilst Di Stefano started further ahead and dropped deeper.

That is how the formation pictures show him to emphasize his game from an attacking POV.

If you actually watch his games, he played even more deeper than Didi at times.

His completeness of operating in both the forward and deeper areas doesn't mean he "started" upfront and dropped deeper. He was the primary ball carrier from deep.

 

[MJJ]

With regards to Carlos it would interesting to hear from other drafters on how they rank his defensive abilities, would you say it would similar to Evra? Imo I always loved the tenacious aspect of his game and with a strong mentality he’s a difficult player to beat. I wouldn’t put him on the Maldini, Nilton, Zanetti etc. Level in terms of defence though, but not a complete liability either .

Really close game though, love both teams, kind of leaning towards GTSQ as I’m a sucker for themed teams and I think this a very good rendition of that great Brazil team. Will follow discussions.

Like every offensive fullback, his defense gets underrated.

 

[MJJ]

Completely different players. AdS was a far more versatile player than Didi.

this should make it easier not harder for him to better didi in his role

 

[MJJ]

The young Bobby Charlton watched Di Stéfano from the stands as a Manchester United reserve at Real's Bernabéu stadium in 1957, and later wrote that his first impression was: "Who is this man? He takes the ball from the goalkeeper, he tells the full-backs what to do; wherever he is on the field he is in position to take the ball, you can see his influence on everything that is happening … I had never seen such a complete footballer … It was as though he had set up his own command centre at the heart of the game. He was as strong as he was subtle. You just could not keep your eyes off him

The role suits him perfectly.

 

[Zlatan 7]

That’s on the ball. What is he doing off it in this formation though?

 

[MJJ]

That’s on the ball. What is he doing off it in this formation though?

Di Stefano could play all of the central positions; center forward, second striker, ten, eight, six, central defender, libero. But he played them all simultaneously. As a center forward, he often fell back between the defender in the 3-2-5 to fetch balls directly from his own penalty area and then march forwards. With the ball at his feet, he used his game intelligence to open the game with long-range passes, dodge around spaces and enemy pressing movements with combinations, or simply dribble past one, two, or even three opponents.

“The great thing about Di Stéfano was that when he was on your team you had two players at any position” – Miguel Muñoz

These slalom runs as a defensive midfielder are often equated with his playing style; but that is a reduction of his skills and (even a negative) glorification of his archetype. Very often Di Stéfano is reduced to his goal threat from deep and merely supporting the midfield, but the Argentinian superstar of the 50s was much more than that. He could fill in as a deep playmaker in a variety of roles and styles, possessing the very rare ability to completely steal the game with his rhythm and dynamism and briefly take over a game.

Generally, Di Stéfano had a great sense of his surroundings, used his field of view very well and employed both to control the surrounding dynamics of the game. He also changed his physical stances and positionings very appropriately; adjusting not only his position, but his posture. Because of this he could respond more effectively and with greater diversity to demanding scenes, as he was already aware when receiving a pass of his potential options. He let hard passes, for example, successfully go to a teammate or switched intelligently between one-touch passes, short breaks before the pass (trapping the ball and making a short run) or an anticipatory circulation backwards.

“Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time; much better even than Pelé. He was, simultaneously, the anchor on the defensive, the playmaker in midfield and the most dangerous sniper in the attack “

– Helenio Herrera

 

[MJJ]

Generally, Di Stéfano displayed his outstanding game intelligence and athleticism off the ball. When playing behind the strikers he sought supporting positions in the (then, of course, unstructured) pressing, put the opponent under pressure very dynamically with his physical presence, blocked passes in the middle of his large Aktionradius and remained intelligently ball-oriented.

In defensive transitions he tracked back with extreme presence and covered a lot of ground. He deftly moved between the rare short breaks, where he didn’t help, to very aggressively pressing his opponent, to a rather space-oriented backwards pressing to support his teammate and simply positioning himself deeper to maintain compactness and security. The stamina and athleticism he displayed was ahead of his time. Di Stefano was outstanding in interpreting the potential dynamics and underlying structures, anticipating intercepting neither the opponent’s first or second pass, but – as in the Benfica scene – the last pass near the penalty area.

 

[Zlatan 7]

So that says he tracked back. The formation graphic also shows him in more of a free role to do as he likes. He also has two midfielders behind him?

That seems different to playing in a midfield two, admittedly he may have the characteristics to play that position but I’d say he’s definitely more inclined to be forward and leaving the midfield and defence exposed waiting for his tracking back

 

[Synco]

While we are building up the attack, that point is valid.

On the counters, I don't think so. Di Stefano's vision and speed of transition, Garrincha's pace and trickery and Kocsis/Puskas' precision to finish moves leaves very little time for the opposition to get in shape, especially through that left flank, with Lucio not really being a wide covering CB.

Further cementing my reputation, but anyway: what makes you think so? For example, Scolari played him as the RCB in his back three (some examples of him defending wide can be seen here). I see no general problem with Lucio covering wide areas, especially with his pace and mobility. The problem I see is that he's certainly not the safest choice to cover for Carlos when it comes to positional discipline and decisionmaking over 90 minutes.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I feel like GSTQ made his tactic unnecessarily complicated with the 58 comparisons. Its simpler to just be its own thing than trying to also represent something else if that makes sense

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

this should make it easier not harder for him to better didi in his role

Messi is a versatile player, similar to AdS. Would you play him in a 2 man midfield?

And in both formations you posted above, AdS was in attacking half of the midfield, I reckon Didi will mostly be in defensive half.

 

[2mufc0]

Messi is a versatile player, similar to AdS. Would you play him in a 2 man midfield?

And in both formations you posted above, AdS was in attacking half of the midfield, I reckon Didi will mostly be in defensive half.

Didi normally gets slated for being defensively weak, play him in a 2 man midfield in one of these drafts and you'll get slaughtered for it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I feel like GSTQ made his tactic unnecessarily complicated with the 58 comparisons. Its simpler to just be its own thing than trying to also represent something else if that makes sense

Hmm maybe. I expected the theme to open to rave reviews, especially with people aware of Di Stefano's game.

But then I expect all my themes to open to rave reviews before being brought back to earth by the fellow drafters

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks @MJJ for the posts on Di Stefano.

That whole article is so brilliant for anyone to gain insights into how Did Stefano went about his game.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Hmm maybe. I expected the theme to open to rave reviews, especially with people aware of Di Stefano's game.

But then I expect all my themes to open to rave reviews before being brought back to earth by the fellow drafters

Oh I know what you mean there. But in this case I think its a case of adding the remake turns the question from "will this work well?" into "will this work like Brazil '58 worked?"

 

[MJJ]

Messi is a versatile player, similar to AdS. Would you play him in a 2 man midfield?

And in both formations you posted above, AdS was in attacking half of the midfield, I reckon Didi will mostly be in defensive half.

Its such a weird way to criticise somebody, like if somebody asks me if messi can do Xavis role.

No because messi is more versatile. His versatility doesn't answer the question.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And in both formations you posted above, AdS was in attacking half of the midfield, I reckon Didi will mostly be in defensive half.

See that is the thing. Basing how a player worked using just formation pictures is not correct. Especially in case of Di Stefano.

Didi likewise was not mostly a defensive half player. He scored close to 200 goals in his career and was as offensive as it gets with decent workrate.

Neither his goals outcome, nor his vision nor his defensive workrate came close to Di Stefano's. That is why I felt it was an upgrade in every sense of the word.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Oh I know what you mean there. But in this case I think its a case of adding the remake turns the question from "will this work well?" into "will this work like Brazil '58 worked?"

Yea, that is a risk you always run. But then you also get to use points like this same system won 2 world cups in a row in case someone outright questions it

 

[Zlatan 7]

They may have won world cups but they were not facing my team and they also had Pelé so that point should be meaningless.

Di Stefano in a two man midfield in a pretty much all time draft makes no sense to me and I think should rightly be questioned. To me, you have Zito with a lot of defensive midfield work to do himself. Each to their own I know but I question your midfield with him there. Again, the lost from mjj shows di Stefano as an attacking free role midfielder with 2 behind him. Totally different to how he would be expected to play in this game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

They may have won world cups but they were not facing my team

They did face one of the best midfields of their time, the Sweden team in the WC final.

They also quite comfortable beat a midfield run by none other than the great Raymond Kopa in the semifinals

https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=488/match=1340/index.html#overview#nosticky

They also beat Charlton's England in 1962, a team essentially with wingers more or less operating like wide midfielders.

https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=232/match=1459/index.html#overview#nosticky

They also beat Masopust and Pluskal's Czech team in the 1962 final.

https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=3480/match=1463/index.html#nosticky

Its not like they haven't come against quality midfields.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

and they also had Pelé so that point should be meaningless.

Err, two things.

1. Pele was 17 in 1958. A 17 year old Pele was not better than a peak Puskas, who essentially had all the same skill set and operated in the same zones
2. In 1962, there was no Pele. He was injured. They still went on to win it. It was Garrincha's world cup. Never before or again has a man operating on just a flank won a world cup almost on his own.

Again, the lost from mjj shows di Stefano as an attacking free role midfielder with 2 behind him. Totally different to how he would be expected to play in this game.

As I have said time and again, judging a player just from his formation is wrong. Especially when there is so much video evidence.

Take this formation for example. Everyone has their own way of portraying things in the picture. Doesn't mean he was a false 9 here.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I wasn’t on about the graphic itself but the support Di Stefano had with him

 

[Zlatan 7]

And saying your formation won a World Cup is quite laughable. My 442 had won a champions league too. I honestly don’t follow your argument

 

[Zlatan 7]

Every graphic or info I’ve been shown in this thread shows Di Stefano as further forward with supporting players behind him.
Like I’ve already said too, he may have the characteristics to do what you want in this formation but it’s not a cert and there’s no evidence of him doing it

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And saying your formation won a World Cup is quite laughable. My 442 had won a champions league too. I honestly don’t follow your argument

Lets get a few things straight.

1. Your midfield is close to perfect and I envy it. No questions asked anywhere in thread. Carlos is probably the only player I have questioned from your team and that too only from a opponent POV.
2. When I say my midfield won 2 WC's, its to emphasize that it worked in the biggest of stages against the best of teams. Its not to say whether yours is better or mine is.

Like I’ve already said too, he may have the characteristics to do what you want in this formation but it’s not a cert and there’s no evidence of him doing it

Well that is thing with drafts across era. There is no certainty whether something will work or not and there is no way we can prove it. Its for people to buy the theory or disagree with it. We have seen flavors of both happening and in the process had a pretty good debate.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Lets get a few things straight.

1. Your midfield is close to perfect and I envy it. No questions asked anywhere in thread. Carlos is probably the only player I have questioned from your team and that too only from a opponent POV.
2. When I say my midfield won 2 WC's, its to emphasize that it worked in the biggest of stages against the best of teams. Its not to say whether yours is better or mine is.



Well that is thing with drafts across era. There is no certainty whether something will work or not and there is no way we can prove it. Its for people to buy the theory or disagree with it. We have seen flavors of both happening and in the process had a pretty good debate.

Let me repeat myself also too mate, that post wasn’t a my team is better than yours. It was a straight up, your team formation win a World Cup, whoopy doo. Most formations have won something st some point

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Let me repeat myself also too mate, that post wasn’t a my team is better than yours. It was a straight up, your team formation win a World Cup, whoopy doo. Most formations have won something st some point

Fair enough mate

 

[Zlatan 7]

You basically havnt got a midfield. You’ve got a holding midfielder and then superman Stefano being everywhere.
Amid expect to see any of the ball other than counter attacks? Or is Garrincha going to do what he did in 62 again for you here?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Amid expect to see any of the ball other than counter attacks? Or is Garrincha going to do what he did in 62 again for you here?

Oh I expect to have plenty of the ball. Withe Zagallo tucking in from time to time in the build up, I think the 3 man midfield with superman Stefano shall be up for it.

At the end of the day, Davids and Redondo is also a direct midfield which is not built to hog possession. Both teams will have enough of the ball IMO.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I’m quite amused that in one post you praise the formation for winning a World Cup then in the following post you put that World Cup win down to Garrincha on his own and praise him for it

 

[Zlatan 7]

Oh I expect to have plenty of the ball. Withe Zagallo tucking in from time to time in the build up, I think the 3 man midfield with superman Stefano shall be up for it.

At the end of the day, Davids and Redondo is also a direct midfield which is not built to hog possession. Both teams will have enough of the ball IMO.

Redondo would control and hold this midfield

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I’m quite amused that in one post you praise the formation for winning a World Cup then in the following post you put that World Cup win down to Garrincha on his own and praise him for it

Well that 1962 team had Vava and Amarildo up front. Not the scariest of opponents. Pele was a big miss.

Garrincha carried the attack on his own. And I am sure even Didi wouldn't feel any shame in admitting it. He was something else in that tournament.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Redondo would control and hold this midfield

All on his own? Well, good luck to him. Di Stefano will have a word with him on the pitch

 

[Zlatan 7]

All on his own? Well, good luck to him. Di Stefano will have a word with him on the pitch

They probably could have a chat as that’s exactly where I’d expect Di Stefano to spend most of his time (leaving Zito alone) Further forward where redondo would be playing his covering role.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

They probably could have a chat as that’s exactly where I’d expect Di Stefano to spend most of his time (leaving Zito alone) Further forward where redondo would be playing his covering role.

There is already a Redondo in Di Stefano

L’Equipe dubbed him ‘L’Omnipresente’. “It’s no exaggeration to say that he played like three players put together,” said one biographer. “He was a midfielder who won the ball and started the play, a No.10 who controlled the game and delivered the final pass, and a striker who put the ball in the net. If you put together Redondo, Zidane and [Brazilian] Ronaldo, you might just get close to what he was.”

 

[Zlatan 7]

Should just call him billy whiz. He’s everywhere

 

[Zlatan 7]

Not happy I’ve lost this game. Against a one man midfield and a superstar being everywhere.

Be nice to have some reasons to why I’d lose so badly. I’ve tried everything with these drafts, been ripped for having narrow team, been ripped for having weak midfield, been ripped for having players out of position. I build a pretty perfect functional team and then lose to a team with no midfield and players out of position, players with great names no doubt but still need a healthy dose of faith in their made up roles.

As far as I can see from the thread I’m losing because Carlos can’t defend against Garrincha and Di Stefano is going to be everywhere and 3 players in one. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Gio]

I've been torn on this one. One of the appeals of GSTQ's team is the plethora of proven partnerships - and world-beating ones at that.

Carlos is an interesting talking point though. While Garrincha can do him damage (like he would to anybody really), Carlos would dominate that flank on the ball so it would be interesting to hear from GSTQ on how that risk is to be mitigated.