Well it's what happens when you get your midfield outnumbered all the time. Albeit I thought the diamond makes it a bit less necessary to hoof the ball than the 5-3-2 it's still part of our game it seems.
Long Ball United?
- Thread starter Getsme
- Start date
To be fair Rooney's responsible for half of them.
It has been said when Moyes was in charge, and most are saying it now again. Top 4 is the target. Doesn't matter how you get there, if you achieve your target you deserve a second year. If you fail you go, like Moyes.
However, it's imo, ... um let me just call it "premature" to complain this much before even dropping out of the top 4.
Also, if we're now being lucky like we were lucky in nearly all of SAF's years, then again, who cares. Let's hope we can keep it up for another 26 years.
When absolutely should when we rarely create anything from building play through midfield, the football we're playing is piss poor and has been for months.
I dont think this is anything new this year. We have never been a tippy tappy type of team and always been fairly direct.
During the summer i was in the "keep fellaini" camp along with quite a few others for the reason "he offers a plan b off the bench".
We have used that Plan B effectivley. If we scrape top 4 by a point or two the "plan b" tactic at West Ham and West Brom will be well used and i wouldnt give two sh1ts about it. We seem to forget that these types of places can be a bit of a battle. West Ham, West Brom, Stoke etc have taken points off top 6 teams and will take more points from Top 6 teams.
Having a squad is about having options and variety, we shouldnt be ashamed of saying "this isnt working, get fellaini on, get people around him and get it crossed".
More than one way to skin a cat..........Fallaini's (ironically) goal against QPR for example was a top qaulity possession based goal which we have scored.
I am happy with have the option and LVG isnt affriad to use it.
Like everybody else, id prefer use to be opening up teams a lot more through incisive passing but i am sure it will come
During the summer i was in the "keep fellaini" camp along with quite a few others for the reason "he offers a plan b off the bench".
We have used that Plan B effectivley. If we scrape top 4 by a point or two the "plan b" tactic at West Ham and West Brom will be well used and i wouldnt give two sh1ts about it. We seem to forget that these types of places can be a bit of a battle. West Ham, West Brom, Stoke etc have taken points off top 6 teams and will take more points from Top 6 teams.
Having a squad is about having options and variety, we shouldnt be ashamed of saying "this isnt working, get fellaini on, get people around him and get it crossed".
More than one way to skin a cat..........Fallaini's (ironically) goal against QPR for example was a top qaulity possession based goal which we have scored.
I am happy with have the option and LVG isnt affriad to use it.
Like everybody else, id prefer use to be opening up teams a lot more through incisive passing but i am sure it will come
Will you see things differently if we are 6th after tomorrow’s games?
Which is why I don't see how Van Gaal constantly talks about how our opponents play long balls in his pre match press conferences.
This did make me chuckle, for all that it is too true at times.
No longer are we sending on John O'Shea to be a striker in the 88th minute, from a means of last resort under Fergie it ahs become LVG's first port of call.
Well aren't you a ray of sunshine.
Someone had a stat up a while back saying we've played the second or third most long balls in the EPL this season
But we have also played more short passes than just about anybody. Only City and possibly Chelsea had more last time I looked.
We just pass it a lot, and are prepared to mix those passes up. I don't see that as a bad thing.
I'll switch to the Van Gaal out brigade when it looks like we're dropping out of the race for the top 4. As long as we're in with a good chance to finish 4th I'll remain positive, but I will understand when people criticize the team and the manager better if we were 6th.
Here we go, we're just behind Arsenal and Chelsea in 4th:
Team Short Passes pg
1 Manchester City 550
2 Chelsea 483
3 Arsenal 481
4 Manchester United 472
Team Short Passes pg
1 Manchester City 550
2 Chelsea 483
3 Arsenal 481
4 Manchester United 472
Precisely.
There was nothing more certain after the switch in tactics against West Ham that we'd have posters here moaning about "hoofball". Add these to the complaints about us passing too much, about us being "too narrow, about us "crossing too much" and file under "mewling"
Yep. For once I found myself agreeing with Carragher after the match. I for one am happy that LVG isn't afraid to mix it up and do what needs to be done for fear of upsetting certain fans.
I can understand why many won’t criticise him or the team until we are out of the top 4, but we are on the verge and the teams improvement hasn't happened like we all had hoped. What’s worse is all the teams around us are improving week by week and if we don’t buck up our ideas soon we will find ourselves as also ran’s for the second season in a row.
Personally I have no issue with us playing the long ball as long we get an end result, my only worry with it is, it seems to be the only alternative plan we have when plan A doesn’t work.
We have an easy run coming up so it's important we win every game to give ourselves some breathing space for the run in. If we are still in the top 4 by the skin of our teeth with 10 or so games to go then I don’t think we will make it.
Yeah, no i agree, everything should be put into context. Though we still have, IMO, played hoof ball a little too often for my liking - but a huge portion of it would be our defenders hoofing it away under pressure. I think everyone has identified a ball playing CB as a priority.
We just did what we had to, to force the result when we are either drawing or losing.
It's not our first resort but we go to a longball system when we have to.
It's not our first resort but we go to a longball system when we have to.
Categorizing United as a long ball oriented team based off volume alone is a deeply flawed argument. A better reflection could be deduced through the percentage of long balls relative to total passes per game. The weighted table then stands as :
Crystal Palace : 33.39 %
Burley : 32.06 %
Queens Park Rangers : 30.53 %
Leicester City : 28.77 %
West Ham : 26.43 %
Hull City : 23.62 %
West Bromwich Albion : 23.22 %
Sunderland : 21.80 %
Stoke City : 20.89 %
Aston Villa : 21.61 %
Newcastle United : 20.57 %
Southampton : 19.04 %
Manchester United : 17.46 %
Everton : 16.02 %
Tottenham Hotspur : 15.67 %
Swansea City : 15.41 %
Liverpool : 14.28 %
Chelsea : 13.62 %
Arsenal : 10.80 %
Manchester City : 10.35 %
As can be discerned from the above our primary game-plan is not predicated on launching long balls. Anyway there's a fallacy associated with the concept of long balls because of established narrative. Long balls as a standalone don't necessarily indicate a neanderthalic football style. Passing should always be about variety in possession and creating mismatches. One of the most attractive teams of all time, Cruyff's Barcelona Dream Team executed a long ball style to near perfection by drawing opponents in with mesmerizing short passes then sucker punching them with a timely long ball through the heart of the defense/ deep midfield. This is what made someone like Ronald Koeman so lethal and effective :
When successful, it's a simple yet elegant way of dissecting the opposition with schematically peppered balls that can bypass a rigid shape and take the top off a defence. The problem is when teams like West Ham (Sam twat sits 5th atop the %age league) make it a staple of their game-plan. Like a butcher who uses a knife on every occasion as opposed to a surgeon who uses it judiciously.
On a similar note there's not something conceptually wrong with cross-field passes. It was/ is a key tool for players like Scholes and Pirlo and Xabi who executed it to perfection and threw the alignment of a defense off balance by quickly switching flanks. Bayern Munich gave a masterclass in the effectiveness of the art of cross field passing when they dismantled Barcelona in historical fashion, with Ribery and Robben frequently switched flanks with lofted balls. The current problem for United isn't really the usage of long balls or "Hollywood Balls" by Rooney. But rather the ineffectiveness of said moves (particularly the latter when Valencia is the target) because the current personnel can't utilize the mismatch to its fullest. eg. Even if Rooney's switch is successful, Valencia is quite one dimensional making the variation redundant.
Crystal Palace : 33.39 %
Burley : 32.06 %
Queens Park Rangers : 30.53 %
Leicester City : 28.77 %
West Ham : 26.43 %
Hull City : 23.62 %
West Bromwich Albion : 23.22 %
Sunderland : 21.80 %
Stoke City : 20.89 %
Aston Villa : 21.61 %
Newcastle United : 20.57 %
Southampton : 19.04 %
Manchester United : 17.46 %
Everton : 16.02 %
Tottenham Hotspur : 15.67 %
Swansea City : 15.41 %
Liverpool : 14.28 %
Chelsea : 13.62 %
Arsenal : 10.80 %
Manchester City : 10.35 %
As can be discerned from the above our primary game-plan is not predicated on launching long balls. Anyway there's a fallacy associated with the concept of long balls because of established narrative. Long balls as a standalone don't necessarily indicate a neanderthalic football style. Passing should always be about variety in possession and creating mismatches. One of the most attractive teams of all time, Cruyff's Barcelona Dream Team executed a long ball style to near perfection by drawing opponents in with mesmerizing short passes then sucker punching them with a timely long ball through the heart of the defense/ deep midfield. This is what made someone like Ronald Koeman so lethal and effective :
When successful, it's a simple yet elegant way of dissecting the opposition with schematically peppered balls that can bypass a rigid shape and take the top off a defence. The problem is when teams like West Ham (Sam twat sits 5th atop the %age league) make it a staple of their game-plan. Like a butcher who uses a knife on every occasion as opposed to a surgeon who uses it judiciously.
On a similar note there's not something conceptually wrong with cross-field passes. It was/ is a key tool for players like Scholes and Pirlo and Xabi who executed it to perfection and threw the alignment of a defense off balance by quickly switching flanks. Bayern Munich gave a masterclass in the effectiveness of the art of cross field passing when they dismantled Barcelona in historical fashion, with Ribery and Robben frequently switched flanks with lofted balls. The current problem for United isn't really the usage of long balls or "Hollywood Balls" by Rooney. But rather the ineffectiveness of said moves (particularly the latter when Valencia is the target) because the current personnel can't utilize the mismatch to its fullest. eg. Even if Rooney's switch is successful, Valencia is quite one dimensional making the variation redundant.
I checked whoscored.com.
According to that, we're 2nd in long balls per game with 79 to Burnley's 80. We're 4th in crosses with 24 pg and 4th in Short Passes with 472 to City's (who're 1st) 550 and Chelsea's 483. We're also 2nd in possession with 59.3% to City's 60.4% and way ahead of 3rd placed (in possession) Everton's 56%.
Off topic but our shots per game is really bad given our possession; we're 10th.
Fwiw, apparently the big culprits of long balls (aside from DDG) are Rojo with 6.5 per game, Carrick with 6.1 and Rooney with 5.4.
I like numbers.
According to that, we're 2nd in long balls per game with 79 to Burnley's 80. We're 4th in crosses with 24 pg and 4th in Short Passes with 472 to City's (who're 1st) 550 and Chelsea's 483. We're also 2nd in possession with 59.3% to City's 60.4% and way ahead of 3rd placed (in possession) Everton's 56%.
Off topic but our shots per game is really bad given our possession; we're 10th.
Fwiw, apparently the big culprits of long balls (aside from DDG) are Rojo with 6.5 per game, Carrick with 6.1 and Rooney with 5.4.
I like numbers.
Lol at some posters trying to paint us as some super versatile passing visionaries with a range of options in our locker which we utilise depending on the circumstances. You don't need a super computer to know we make lots of short passes in non threatening areas and then play a long ball. You just use your eyes.
I can only guess that it's because we are "top 4 threatened" and the manager is trying to save his job for next year.
So what your saying is, we pass it around a lot at the back before we hoof it.
Dynamic football at its finest
If there was a table for passing from the oppositon half to the right back, to the centre back then to the keeper, we'd definitely be top of that.
I wonder what percentage of the other 82.54% of passes are backward passes or from defender to defender? Get some stats on that, because the amount of passes from midfield to defenders and vice versa before hoofing it must be quite high.
Because opinions from people who watch games could never be deceiving, right?
Only three teams have scored more goals than us this season. We've done this mainly playing strikers whose finishing has been mediocre to crap. We're also the only team not to score a single goal from a penalty. Fairly sure we haven't scored a single free-kick either? Actually, maybe one? Di Maria's from out wide?
Not sure how that tallies with your opinion that we "create almost nothing every game". Perhaps stats are handy after all?
We weren't lucky under Fergie. We pretty much always finished where we deserved to, barring a few title races which you could argue could have swung either way.
The difference is at the moment it takes a level of delusion to believe the quality of United's performances is good enough to sustain a top four place. Particularly when you look at the fixture run in. At the moment, 7th is a more realistic target than 4th.
IF we start playing better, then I could understand, but at the moment our clinging on to 4th is attributable to some completely lucky results which are just not likely to repeat themselves in the second half of the season. There's also the fact that the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool were also producing poor performances for the first half of the season, but unlike us have addressed this. They're all within touching distance and you expect that we'll somehow stay above 3 teams for nearly half a season despite performing noticably worse than any of them? That's just not realistic at all. It's a denialist argument. Like thinking falling off a cliff is fine because you haven't hit the ground yet.
If we're going to finish in the top four we HAVE to start playing quite a bit better. I think it's as clear as that. The current standard isn't good enough so using it as a defensive argument makes no snnse
We created 3 clear cut chances for RVP yesterday, the right foot volley, the left foot at the keeper laid on by Falcao and another in the left hand channel that he took an extra touch at got block. The falcao chance. Fellaini had a chance to swivel and shoot.
Granted we didnt rip them to shreds but we created enough chances to win the game
I agree with that, stats can be very misleading, but they can help paint a picture.
We had quite a few very good chances yesterday which the Stikers couldn't finish.
Falcao miss
and RVP chance too.Vs Southampton where we failed to score Mata could have had a hat trick
Last timed we played Burnley Mata missed kicked from about 4 yards out
We're not as fluid going forward, we don't exactly open teams up, but we do create chances.
I still stand by my obvious exaggeration.
We create almost nothing every game and play shit football. But that's just what my eyes see. I'm sure stats will pull us through to 4th in the end.
The same Arsenal who were utterly dominated by Spurs in a fixture which we should have won by three or four clear goals, if the Spurs keeper hadn't been MOTM (/our strikers been a bit crap)
The mood swings on here are just crazy. Liverpool and Arsenal get a run of easy fixtures (or a good result) and they're world beaters and we're shite. We have a poor result and we're mid-table. The truth is a bit more complicated than that. We've become fairly formidable at home but our away form is not good enough. The other CL contenders have their own issues. It's going to be a close run thing but we've got our noses out in front and we've done this despite having horrendous injury problems and obvious scope for improvement. Plus we're the only team in contention for the CL slots who won't have European distractions in the coming weeks/months. I'd say that's a pretty good place to be.
EDIT: Actually, Soton are the joker in the pack and also have no European football. I still think they'll fall away, though. Despite doing so well thus far.
It certainly feels like next to no chances most games and they're scrappy when they do come. I'll have to dig stats on chances created up see whether it is better than it feels.
Perhaps its just because we don't open teams up on the break so they're not exciting chances.
I'd give anything for an exciting counter attacking game right now.
We have had a few games where we've created feck all. Especially coming towards that recent run of 352s. When we play a back four we've consistently created a decent amount of chances though. We created a bunch of chances against WHU, that's for sure. Which makes it strange timing to try and portray us as never creating anything.
It all comes down to this "balance" thing Van Gaal keeps shitting on about. Started the season neither creating nor defending. Then sorted out our defence at the cost of creativity. In our last couple of games we've probably been closer to that perfect balance between creating and defending than we have been all season. Just unfortunate that one of those games was in a really tough fixture where our finishing was really poor and the other was a game where we were mentally scarred by throwing away a big lead the last time we played them.
Actually, your assessment isn't far from the truth in a statistical sense.
Despite being 4th in the total goals scored category, United are only 9th (behind West Ham and just above Stoke) in the creative chances per game category. The number would be even lower in we weigh it against the total volume of passes and try to estimate the effectiveness of passes as a percentage. In a sense this reinforces the notion that the likes of Van Persie and Falcao among others would score a much higher number of goals were the service better than what we're currently producing for the forwards.
But of course, a lot of it is also because of the systemic flaw with the 3-5-2 when United employed it.
This is where I have an issue with stats about football. We can use them if we want to to argue that we are actually a dangerous side, we create lots of opportunities and only three teams have scored more goals than us.
Its horseshit though. Everyone on here watches all of our matches and its pretty clear that we have a very poor team at the moment. This is the first time in 30+ years of watching us that I'm struggling to get through our matches. Even when we equalised yesterday I wasn't celebrating - I was feeling sorry for West Ham. Completely alien emotions for me to feel watching United.
We will not finish top four playing at this level
Jesus Christ, man. That's just weird.
I agree with this 100%
The frustration is.............in truth, we should now be in touching distance of City.
If that where the case the added fixtures our competitors are about to face would even be more of a hinderence to them.
The dropped points in the last 6 weeks away at spurs, villa, stoke and west ham added to the southampton defeats have been frustrating because teams around and above us have dropped points and we havent capitalised. Those games returned 4 points from a possible 15? If we achieved the 2 point average and took 10 points from those games we would be essentially title contenders.
More than some of the performances......thats is what really frustrates me
I don't remember too many to be honest yesterday. if 5 or 6 is considered many with our attacking line-up then our standards have really dropped, and it just underlines even more that we are massively unbalanced.