Livestream out of Syria

Red Dreams said:
read your own post. are you seriously saying Iran's action warranted military action? Are they not 'contained'? Their economy is in tatters. The US and Israel will not allow them to be a real threat. If that is not what you meant why mention Iran pissing themselves?
Click to expand...

The US backing from their own ultimatum is a terrible message to Iran. Sanctions are one thing, but the "all options on the table" threat appears to be hollow. Seems like Israel will have to do the dirty work on its own, because it doesn't have the same margin of error as Obama has.

Neither would need boots on the ground to carry out the mission (bar special forces which are probably already familiar with Iranian soil)
 
Red Dreams said:
Al Queda have their own motives. That does not mean the rebels or the US are working in coordination with them. Stop making things up. Oh...so your Assad only killed in the tens of thousands..that Ok then. A drone strike killing him and his family would be applauded all over the world. Assad is no fool...just a murderer. So you are seriously saying here that the rebels used these chemical weapons?? You are completely agenda driven.

You might want to revisit the definition of critical thinking.
Click to expand...

Except that they are. I haven't made anything up, you'd be seriously deluded if you thought there was no coordination between the FSA and AQ, heck Al Nusra are the biggest military wing of the FSA! The US are the ones facilitating this along with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, so its not outlandish to implicate the AQ link. Like you said, 'the world of politics' right?

Drone strike to kill Assad, his wife and his young children? Classy as always, straight from the FSA ethics manual. As for the chemical weapons I'm not saying anything since unlike you I'm not jumping to conclusions, especially when this conflict has had history of fabricated allegations from both sides.
 
Red Dreams said:
we are conducting drone strikes against Al Qeda operatives....thanks for saying AQ types. That does not mean the US does not deal with these 'types' of people. I'm not going to sit here and defend the US and all their actions. For them these 'types' are a lesser evil atm. welcome to the world of politics. It is not all black and white.
Click to expand...

The United States declared Al-Nusra to be a terrorist organisation in December of 2012, its leader has pledged his allegiance to Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant...well have a read in a spare moment.

Where is the acceptable evil for you there?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
The United States declared Al-Nusra to be a terrorist organisation in December of 2012, its leader has pledged his allegiance to Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant...well have a read in a spare moment.

Where is the acceptable evil for you there?
Click to expand...

Well of course it has, Obama isn't going to go on his sanctimonious podium and suddenly be all like "Hey, those Al Qaeda boys aren't actually too bad ya know". Makes them look a bit silly if they openly admit to being in bed with the same people that murdered 3000 of their own. Its similar with the Kurdish seperatist group in Iran - PJAK, officially they're listed as a terrorist organisation by the US State Department but the US are very much in bed with them in helping destablise the Iranian regime.
 
Kaos said:
Except that they are. I haven't made anything up, you'd be seriously deluded if you thought there was no coordination between the FSA and AQ, heck Al Nusra are the biggest military wing of the FSA! The US are the ones facilitating this along with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, so its not outlandish to implicate the AQ link. Like you said, 'the world of politics' right?

Drone strike to kill Assad, his wife and his young children? Classy as always, straight from the FSA ethics manual. As for the chemical weapons I'm not saying anything since unlike you I'm not jumping to conclusions, especially when this conflict has had history of fabricated allegations from both sides.
Click to expand...

you talking of class? killing syrian civilians is classy I'm sure. is Assad a murderer or not...mr classy? Assad has no problems killing other people's children though... go ahead defend him. are you really this stupid?
 
Red Dreams said:
you talking of class? killing syrian civilians is classy I'm sure. is Assad a murderer or not...mr classy? Assad has no problems killing other people's children though... go ahead defend him. are you really this stupid?
Click to expand...

is obama a murderer or not ?
 
holyland red said:
The US backing from their own ultimatum is a terrible message to Iran. Sanctions are one thing, but the "all options on the table" threat appears to be hollow. Seems like Israel will have to do the dirty work on its own, because it doesn't have the same margin of error as Obama has.

Neither would need boots on the ground to carry out the mission (bar special forces which are probably already familiar with Iranian soil)
Click to expand...

the US said all options are on the table and they still are. "appears to be hollow???? to whom...you?" so what would satisfy you? level Iran? personally I could not give a feck if they do....but why do that....when Iran are 'contained'.
 
Red Dreams said:
Al Queda have their own motives. That does not mean the rebels or the US are working in coordination with them. Stop making things up. Oh...so your Assad only killed in the tens of thousands..that Ok then. A drone strike killing him and his family would be applauded all over the world. Assad is no fool...just a murderer. So you are seriously saying here that the rebels used these chemical weapons?? You are completely agenda driven.

You might want to revisit the definition of critical thinking.
Click to expand...

The UN has already acknowledged that the rebels aka terrorists have used chemical weapons. Guess what that time too the blame was pinned on the syrian govt.
 
Red Dreams said:
so you say the rebels used chemical weapons here?
Click to expand...

I say lets wait for an unbiased report on it rather than believing what the rebels aka terrorists claim.

Even if one were to assume that the syrian govt used chemical weapons then the question that arises is why now ? why not use it a year ago or nip it in the bud when it began ? Using it a year ago would have made more sense because the govt was on the backfoot as compared to the present situation.
 
VidaRed said:
I say lets wait for an unbiased report on it rather than believing what the rebels aka terrorists claim.

Even if one were to assume that the syrian govt used chemical weapons then the question that arises is why now ? why not use it a year ago or nip it in the bud when it began ? Using it a year ago would have made more sense because the govt was on the backfoot as compared to the present situation.
Click to expand...


the solution to stop all this killing has always been clear. Assad should leave. But he is prepared to commit mass murder and people like you and Kaos are happy to see it happen...and then talk of class??? bloody ell....
 
VidaRed said:
Laugh all you want but by your own analogy your president (assuming your american) is a murderer.
Click to expand...

nah he is not. people die in war. yes...innocent people even. But Obama has not committed mass murder. your guy has. Drones are the only solution available. I have not heard an alternative to stopping terrorists who plan to attack the US.
 
Red Dreams said:
nah he is not. people die in war. yes...innocent people even. But Obama has not committed mass murder. your guy has. Drones are the only solution available. I have not heard an alternative to stopping terrorists who plan to attack the US.
Click to expand...

Whats your fixation with drones ?

As for the bolded part the solution is simple..stop aiding them and being there allies in one part of the globe and an adversary in another part.
 
VidaRed said:
Whats your fixation with drones ?

As for the bolded part the solution is simple..stop aiding them and being there allies in one part of the globe and an adversary in another part.
Click to expand...


are you seriously saying by the US not targeting Al Qeda leaders, all terrorist activities against the US will stop? and who is giving this guarantee? You still have not answered this...you are happy to see thousands of syrians die so Assad can stay on...well of course you do cause...you call all ordinary Syrian rebels terrorists. Even our own Syrian Scholes. Please think about what you lot are posting. Obama is no Ghandi...but to equate him to despots and mass murderers like Assad is ridiculous.
 
VidaRed said:
Whats your fixation with drones ?

As for the bolded part the solution is simple..stop aiding them and being there allies in one part of the globe and an adversary in another part.
Click to expand...


It’s not that simple though,

I mean any victory for the pro Iran Assad regime is at least an opportunity lost for the US. At the moment Iran are throwing Billions of dollars at propping up Assad and limited support for the FSA keeps them doing so. If you are a US policy maker it makes perfect sense to continue to support the FSA for as long as practicable. It also allows the US the moral high ground because all the deaths in Syria can be blamed on Iran for keeping Assad in power.
 
Red Dreams said:
the solution to stop all this killing has always been clear. Assad should leave.
Click to expand...

Why should Syria's minorities be any less fearful once Assad is gone, indeed at this moment quite the contrary would seem to be the case.

You are aware of the sectarian violence and displacement of particular groups from towns and cities i take it? Also the occupation of villages by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in the north of the country?

People like Obama and Cameron may share that overly simplistic viewpoint worryingly.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Why should Syria's minorities be any less fearful once Assad is gone, indeed at this moment quite the contrary would seem to be the case.

You are aware of the sectarian violence and displacement of particular groups from towns and cities i take it? Also the occupation of villages by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in the north of the country?
Click to expand...

and his continuing mass murder IS acceptable? The UN did try and broker a deal but he would not go.

Remember, Syria is in the condition it is, because of Assad. He could have been just to all.......
 
Red Dreams said:
and his continuing mass murder IS acceptable? The UN did try and broker a deal but he would not go.

Remember, Syria is in the condition it is, because of Assad. He could have been just to all.......
Click to expand...

Removing Assad is not some panacea at this point, we are well beyond that.

Would you put boots on the ground to protect Syria's minorities from the extremists currently serving a means to an end for the FSA? Or will Western capitals and media just look the other way ?

Surely one of the biggest lessons learnt from Iraq was the horrific toll suffered by civilians and troops alike as a result of the lack of a sustainable plan?
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
It also allows the US the moral high ground because all the deaths in Syria can be blamed on Iran for keeping Assad in power.
Click to expand...

With the US openly supplying weapons to an opposition as wide ranging as this that will take a lot of spinning to pull off.

And with the humanitarian situation being what it is they could improve theri efforts in that quarter if they wish for enhanced moral authority.
 
Red Dreams said:
:lol:

gotta try harder.
Click to expand...

Who killed 100,000+ people in Iraq since 2003? Should we blame Bush or Al-Qaeda?

Also, "killing Assad with a drone strike will solve problem", yeah right.. Like the problem was solved in Iraq when Saddam was captured, in 2003.
 
Red Dreams said:
you talking of class? killing syrian civilians is classy I'm sure. is Assad a murderer or not...mr classy? Assad has no problems killing other people's children though... go ahead defend him. are you really this stupid?
Click to expand...


100,000 Syrians have died. A lot of those include Syrian soldiers and ordinary civilians killed by the FSA. Regardless of what you think of Assad his regime is a secular one fighting an Al-Qaeda infested rebellion, and almost all of Syria's ethnic minority groups - Shia, Alawite, Christian and Druzes are reliant on that secular fabric remaining intact, otherwise they'd most likely face a grave demise should the opposition have their way. In the Egypt thread you're very vocal on your opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood and seem (rightly) opposed to any Islamist government, yet here you seem to be siding with the people who are not only of the same ilk, but a lot worse. You're a Christian right? If you were living in Syria your family's safety would be dependent on the government, the rebellion which you bemusedly seem to champion would have you executed for having the audacity to maintain your faith and not adhering to theirs.

It's also rich how you're going wax lyrical about killing children considering your darling Obama seems to have developed an unapologetic knack for it.
 
I find arguing about this sort of shit to be a bit pointless at this stage. The YouTube clips are really depressing.
 
Kaos said:
100,000 Syrians have died. A lot of those include Syrian soldiers and ordinary civilians killed by the FSA. Regardless of what you think of Assad his regime is a secular one fighting an Al-Qaeda infested rebellion, and almost all of Syria's ethnic minority groups - Shia, Alawite, Christian and Druzes are reliant on that secular fabric remaining intact, otherwise they'd most likely face a grave demise should the opposition have their way. In the Egypt thread you're very vocal on your opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood and seem (rightly) opposed to any Islamist government, yet here you seem to be siding with the people who are not only of the same ilk, but a lot worse. You're a Christian right? If you were living in Syria your family's safety would be dependent on the government, the rebellion which you bemusedly seem to champion would have you executed for having the audacity to maintain your faith and not adhering to theirs.

It's also rich how you're going wax lyrical about killing children considering your darling Obama seems to have developed an unapologetic knack for it.
Click to expand...

So Assad is the good guy protecting all these minorities. The point you are clearly not addressing honestly is that Assad caused this civil war by not treating all ethnics the same. As for drones...yes innocents will die as in any war...but the US is not going out to commit genocide as your guy is. The President's first responsibility is to protect Americans and this is the only way to do so without a full scale invasion. America does not need another war.
 
Red Dreams said:
So Assad is the good guy protecting all these minorities. The point you are clearly not addressing honestly is that Assad caused this civil war by not treating all ethnics the same.
Click to expand...

Fine then, so for argument's sake the US launch a successful drone strike which leaves Assad dead, what is the next step in your grand plan?

Is it to replace Assad's security apparatus with muscle provided by Islamist terrorist groups who run a fiefdom or two on the side? A dash of sectarian/religious cleansing here, a spot of AQ justice there e.t.c.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Fine then, so for argument's sake the US launch a successful drone strike which leaves Assad dead, what is the next step in your grand plan?

Is it to replace Assad's security apparatus with muscle provided by Islamist terrorist groups who run a fiefdom or two on the side? A dash of sectarian/religious cleansing here, a spot of AQ justice there e.t.c.
Click to expand...

in your grand plan you would let things go as they are?
 
Red Dreams said:
in your grand plan you would let things go as they are?
Click to expand...

I shall assume then that you don't have a pos-Assad plan of any sort then.

As for myself, i couldn't possible advocate full scale military intervention unless there was a sound idea for what comes afterwards and a willingness to see it through.

Without that i would at least focus more attention on the humanitarian situation, we've got generation of Syria's youth stuck in limbo at this moment and the displaced population as a body having even fewer rights than they had prior to the uprising in some cases. The UN could even go so far as to offer to lease land in soem of the surrounding countries, a Syria away from Syria if you will [or UN Protectorate].
 
Red Dreams said:
the US said all options are on the table and they still are. "appears to be hollow???? to whom...you?" so what would satisfy you? level Iran? personally I could not give a feck if they do....but why do that....when Iran are 'contained'.
Click to expand...

To the Iranians themselves. Their nuclear program is advancing faster than ever.

Levelling Iran was never an option, nor it should be. The nuclear program can be brought to a halt by destroying not more than a dozen sites without any damage to populated areas. It appears that Israel will have to do the dirty job on its own, despite Obama's "options on the table".
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I shall assume then that you don't have a pos-Assad plan of any sort then.

As for myself, i couldn't possible advocate full scale military intervention unless there was a sound idea for what comes afterwards and a willingness to see it through.

Without that i would at least focus more attention on the humanitarian situation, we've got generation of Syria's youth stuck in limbo at this moment and the displaced population as a body having even fewer rights than they had prior to the uprising in some cases. The UN could even go so far as to offer to lease land in soem of the surrounding countries, a Syria away from Syria if you will [or UN Protectorate].
Click to expand...

There have been so many past examples of "mission accomplished" that were followed by inabiliy to translate military victories into proper running of the territories post-war. I guess some will never learn.

I'm not sure refugee camps for millions in neighbouring countries is the answer either.
 
Kaos said:
100,000 Syrians have died. A lot of those include Syrian soldiers and ordinary civilians killed by the FSA. Regardless of what you think of Assad his regime is a secular one fighting an Al-Qaeda infested rebellion, and almost all of Syria's ethnic minority groups - Shia, Alawite, Christian and Druzes are reliant on that secular fabric remaining intact, otherwise they'd most likely face a grave demise should the opposition have their way. In the Egypt thread you're very vocal on your opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood and seem (rightly) opposed to any Islamist government, yet here you seem to be siding with the people who are not only of the same ilk, but a lot worse. You're a Christian right? If you were living in Syria your family's safety would be dependent on the government, the rebellion which you bemusedly seem to champion would have you executed for having the audacity to maintain your faith and not adhering to theirs.

It's also rich how you're going wax lyrical about killing children considering your darling Obama seems to have developed an unapologetic knack for it.
Click to expand...

Your hypothetical fate had you lived in Gaza never stopped you supporting Hamas, has it Kaos? Neither has your (vocal) opposition to the MB and support for secularism. Consistency is a rare commodity in this part of the Caf.
 
Kaos said:
100,000 Syrians have died. A lot of those include Syrian soldiers and ordinary civilians killed by the FSA. Regardless of what you think of Assad his regime is a secular one fighting an Al-Qaeda infested rebellion, and almost all of Syria's ethnic minority groups - Shia, Alawite, Christian and Druzes are reliant on that secular fabric remaining intact, otherwise they'd most likely face a grave demise should the opposition have their way. In the Egypt thread you're very vocal on your opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood and seem (rightly) opposed to any Islamist government, yet here you seem to be siding with the people who are not only of the same ilk, but a lot worse. You're a Christian right? If you were living in Syria your family's safety would be dependent on the government, the rebellion which you bemusedly seem to champion would have you executed for having the audacity to maintain your faith and not adhering to theirs.

It's also rich how you're going wax lyrical about killing children considering your darling Obama seems to have developed an unapologetic knack for it.
Click to expand...

Al-Qaida-linked rebels in Syria have executed the Italian Jesuit priest and the messenger of peace Father Paolo Dall'Oglio, 59, who disappeared in the rebel-held city of Raqqa on July 29, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported Wednesday.

The organization cited local activists in the northeastern Syrian city of Raqqa with close links to Dall Oglio as saying he was killed while being held by fighters from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS).

In June 2012, the Syrian authorities have expelled the Italian priest from the country as he stands against the Syrian regime and supports the opposition since the beginning of the uprising in mid-March 2011.

He had served at the Monastery of Saint Moses the Abyssinian, or Deir Mar Moussa, for about three decades.

In January 2013, he returned to Syria and tried to heal rifts between activists in a bid to create a united and strong opposition front.

"Father Paolo is known for his support for the Syrian people in their demands for freedom and dignity," the Observatory said. "His messages of support and solidarity and calls to end bloodshed cost him dearly, with the Syrian regime denying his right to live in Syria and continue his decades long work in Deir Mar Moussa a monastery that turned into a center for interfaith dialogue."

http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...ped-in-syria-executed-by-alqaidalinked-rebels
Click to expand...
 
Red Dreams said:
So Assad is the good guy protecting all these minorities. The point you are clearly not addressing honestly is that Assad caused this civil war by not treating all ethnics the same. As for drones...yes innocents will die as in any war...but the US is not going out to commit genocide as your guy is. The President's first responsibility is to protect Americans and this is the only way to do so without a full scale invasion. America does not need another war.
Click to expand...

Well considering that the army is fighting to preserve Syria's secular fabric then yes I'd say he is protecting the minorities. Unlike almost every other nation in the middle east, Syrians enjoy the rare freedom to practice their religion freely and without oppression. The very people Assad is fighting wish to reverse all that by imposing an Islamic caliphate which would only encompass those who abide to their extremist doctrine of Salafist Islam. Which means those that get left out...well considering Al-Qaedas modus operandi its not hard to predict how their fate will turn out.

Consider this photo:
248075_10100484829644669_1824422507_n.jpg

That testaments the secular society Syria has always been. If the Army succumbs and the FSA prove victorious, that photo will prove to be a remnant of the past as opposed to a reflection of the present.

As for your second point - well considering that drone attacks serve as one of the most common causes in radicalising otherwise apathetic Muslims in various nations, Obama isn't doing a very good job of protecting his citizens. He seems to be continuing the precarious path of his predecessor.
 
holyland red said:
Your hypothetical fate had you lived in Gaza never stopped you supporting Hamas, has it Kaos? Neither has your (vocal) opposition to the MB and support for secularism. Consistency is a rare commodity in this part of the Caf.
Click to expand...

I've never supported Hamas nor do I approve of their doctrines. I only see them as a symptom of a more systematic oppression in the region. More understandable as opposed to necessary.
 
Kaos said:
I've never supported Hamas nor do I approve of their doctrines. I only see them as a symptom of a more systematic oppression in the region. More understandable as opposed to necessary.
Click to expand...

That's like saying Syrian oppression, including dad's massacres, make the human organ eating we've witnessed understandable too. My point still stands that blaming others with hypocricy is tricky. Yourself, VidaRed and Mr. Danny stood firmly on the side of the Sunni fundamentalists when it suited your agenda.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I shall assume then that you don't have a pos-Assad plan of any sort then.

As for myself, i couldn't possible advocate full scale military intervention unless there was a sound idea for what comes afterwards and a willingness to see it through.

Without that i would at least focus more attention on the humanitarian situation, we've got generation of Syria's youth stuck in limbo at this moment and the displaced population as a body having even fewer rights than they had prior to the uprising in some cases. The UN could even go so far as to offer to lease land in soem of the surrounding countries, a Syria away from Syria if you will [or UN Protectorate].
Click to expand...

at least we agree the military intervention is a no go. The US wont invade in any case. My preference is the Syrian people sort out what they want for a post Assad government. It wont be perfect as far as the West is concerned...but nothing ever is. The UN would have a huge role in the humanitarian disaster that is already brewing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.