So if he has a bad game tomorrow or we lose, you’ll declare him a complete flop?
Liverpool - 2017/18
- Thread starter Rafateria
- Start date
Lets get things right I've never said he's a complete flop. He will obviously improve you given how poor you are at the back.
Do I think other players could bring what he brings for a fraction of the price? Yes I do. Do I think he's the best defender in England? No I don't. Do I think he's worth anything near that money? No. He isn't.
I'm keen to see if he justifies the price you paid. Tomorrow is his first real test against top opponents. You can't hide the fact you've made him the most expensive defender in the history of football. I want to see if he fits the bill.
That’s a fair point of view.
Out of interest who do you think we could’ve gone for (out of the CB’s available)?
Van Dijk was expensive but he is PL proven and is definitely better than our other CB’s (not hard I know). If you bring in a player from another league you can run the risk of them not adapting to English football.
Maguire in the summer for 18m? Even going for him post his move to Leicester would cost less than 75m.
Hes just one off the top of my head but to say there's no other option is a bit short sighted.
Liverpool are now spending mega money. Expect to be scrutinised the same way as others.
If Sanchez moved to United would you feel he should get time to settle?
Van Dijk is better than Maguire imo.
I wouldn’t expect Sánchez to need a settling in period, but I wouldn’t write him off if he was below par in his first couple of games.
Maguire would have improved your back 4 though for a fraction of the price right?
As players I don't really think there is much between the two other. Infact I would prefer the overall package of Maguire given his age, price and overall ceiling.
I haven’t been that impressed with Maguire this season. Seems like more of a gamble considering that we don’t know how he’ll develop.
At least we know what we’re getting with Van Dijk. He’s one of the best CB’s around aerially (an area we’ve struggled) and is also one of the best at winning the ball back, which is important to the way we play.
There’s a video I posted in here or the Van Dijk thread which explains what he excels at better than I can.
Liverpool fans seem to love this 'PL proven' thing. Wasn't Andy Carroll 'PL proven'? Lovren? Robbie Keane?
Suarez wasn't Premier League proven, neither was Coutinho. And they're the best players to have played at Liverpool in a very long time.
Yeah but for every Suarez or Coutinho there’s a Di Maria or Falcao. Both of them were world class then came to England and couldn’t adapt. Mane, Matic, Sterling, Mata, Valencia...all examples of PL proven players that went from one English club to another and have done well.
Our problem hasn’t been that we’ve been buying PL players, it’s that we’ve been buying ones that aren’t that good. I’m hoping that Van Dijk is one of the better ones.
Can you think of an available CB playing outside of England that is definitely better than Van Dijk and much cheaper?
Macguire is not better then the cb’s Liverpool already have. He has the same tendencies to rush out and overcommit that Lovren does but it’s not made as big a deal because he plays for a mid table team who sit deep. Just look at the goal that Salah scored to win the game against them. If that happened to Lovren/Matip/Klavan it would of been a massive story but because Leicester weren’t supposed to win the game nobody talks about the mistake
I think Maguire is better and has more potential than Lovren and Klavan easily.
The fact remains you didn't HAVE to go big on VVD. There were other options available for less money or you could have gone overseas like United and picked up an Eric Bailly for 30m (IMO better than VVD already and younger).
The stats you select..
So you're saying he's having a better season than Pogba, Matic, Kante and Fernandinho?
Because the stats you selected (all 5 of them) he scored higher at.
And I thought you'd be well aware he's not been particularly good this season. It's quite common knowledge.
It's pretty clear I posted it to show that he's not having a 'poor season', because his stats (even though in a different league) are relatively high even in comparison to the best in his position in England, suggesting he is performing to a good standard still. Does that spell it out easily enough for you?
It wasn't comparison I made, but one that I saw online. But since you asked, I used the same tool to make the same comparison with the players you mentioned in the Bundesliga and he outperforms them all. Not sure how to embed on here but have a look yourself.
You mean the 5 selected statistics you chose?
No i believe you, i was just pointing out that comparing player stats across different leagues is absurd.
Edwards at the Leipzig/Schalke game. Just needs to bring back Keita, Goretzka and Werner. No pressure. 
Potential is all good, but you need a system to nurture and ulitize that. Terry wouldn't be as good as he was if he were to be employed in high defense line. I don't watch Leicester that much but I can spot quite few instance where Maguire went to sleep and let his man run behind his back.
I don't argue with VVD point you made, but the L'pool fan had a point in regarding Maguire.
I'm seriously starting to doubt as to whether you can read or not. Certainly can't form a coherent argument.Yeah, it's a very loose comparison but suggests he can't be having that bad a season.
Yeah, it's a very loose comparison but suggests he can't be having that bad a season.
What are you struggling with? I posted a similar comparison based on genuine totals (as opposed to your averages) and containing more statistics than the 5 you picked - Keita was bottom of the pile.
I even posted a direct comparison with Pogba above which you conveniently ignored. Wonder why..
I don't mind having reasoned discussions however when people stoop to your low level it becomes an uphill task.
Aerial crosses aren't what we have to worry about with City
I would spontaneously combustEdwards at the Leipzig/Schalke game. Just needs to bring back Keita, Goretzka and Werner. No pressure.
Liverpools system is still their problem
Midfield is completely no existent in transition meaning teams can attack straight at their defence
Van dijk is an average center half. Your manager said basically he is your only option so they bent you over for him.
Your still shite and will win feck all playing current system.
Midfield is completely no existent in transition meaning teams can attack straight at their defence
Van dijk is an average center half. Your manager said basically he is your only option so they bent you over for him.
Your still shite and will win feck all playing current system.
You're failing to understand the fact that I am not stating that Keita is 'the best CM in the world' as you suggested. I'm not sure where that came from. Simply that he's quite clearly not having a poor season, by any measure.
Hes been poor compared to the previous season.
That seems like a very reasoned and unbiased argument in my opinion. Like all your posts.
You are being deliberately hyperbolic, he wouldn't make the 'BL team of the first half of the season' if he had been poor would he. He hasn't reached last season's heights but his figures are still outstanding.
Then that's the wrong way to use the Squawka comparison tool for a real head-to-head. You do need to use 'averages' (though minute per - not available on the site - would be even better) because obviously using totals gives an advantage to the player having made the most appearances (I've no idea how they compare on that metric).
Giorno makes a point in that it's difficult to compare exactly but what the stats do is tell you what type of player you are getting and how effective he is in that league. Now if that player were coming from La Liga or Serie A it becomes a very difficult comparison, however the Bundesliga is clearly similar to the PL in many respects and players from Germany have less difficulty adapting than those from say Italy and France.
According to the whoscored Keita was 5th best player in bundesliga with 7,60 rating*. Now he's 5th best with 7,50**. Not sure if that's "poor" by any standards.
*https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/81/Tournaments/3/Seasons/6392/Germany-Bundesliga
**https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/81/Tournaments/3/Seasons/6902/Germany-Bundesliga
This whole Keita discussion is a train wreck. It's not a good sign when you feel the need to make baseless claims about a rival club's upcoming signing.
So come on .. name them. You keep saying they are out there but I've yet to see anyone, on any thread and on any forum that I've been on, come up with a really viable option that meets the criteria below. You are totally hung up on his fee (or on a multi-thread, multi-week troll) but just forget that for a moment and concentrate on exactly who was available, and just as importantly would have chosen to move to Liverpool (this rules out some big name CBs before this gets silly)? And don't say Maguire because he clearly isn't as good no matter that you alone seem to think he is (mostly, it seems, based on his potential).
Also remember that Klopp wanted a dominant leader (i.e. not Bailly), a player who could carry the ball out of defence, was aerially very strong and is at or close to his prime now to improve the defence from Day 1. And, I'm repeating this for emphasis, remember they have to be better, not just younger and with potential.
On your marks, get set : GO ! ......... (this may take a while folks so don't hold your breath).
Is Keita just a poor mans Pogba,a lot of hype at the moment until he’s done a full season then we can make a judgement.
Or Lindelof for 35.
Who still looks better value than VVD.
Who cares about value? First and foremost I want the better player. As long as you get the players you want and are able to build a team and squad with the money you have who cares? I mean for example say Bailey and VVD are equally good, what does it matter that they paid more for VVD?
I would rather have VVD for 75m than Maguire for 20m if I feel VVD is the better player and I will have money left over for other purchases.
I can see the logic from the Liverpool board though. Mourinho walked into an already well organised unit, defensively he had players who weren't foreign to the concept of defending well but lacked the physicality and fitness. He didn't need to get a bespoke all rounder to improve the defence massively for his system to work and the likes of Baily and Lindelof were enough.
Klopp seems to want to defend in a different way, a higher way and one that requires more composure on the ball whilst maintaining a physical presence in zonal systems for set pieces and the like. VVD was one of the phew to fit that profile and Premier League proven no less. Add that to the fact that they had £146m towards a transfer budget, they can afford to bring VVD in and another £70m player before they start dipping into funds outside of a Coutinho sale.
VVD was the low risk option, and they needed to minimise that when spending current rates and above for defenders. It would have been an absolute shit show if they got foreign league promising defender hoping he'd adapt like Bailey and saw him adapt like Mangala instead. They've already made too many underwhelming transfers in that area to be able to afford another one.
Klopp seems to want to defend in a different way, a higher way and one that requires more composure on the ball whilst maintaining a physical presence in zonal systems for set pieces and the like. VVD was one of the phew to fit that profile and Premier League proven no less. Add that to the fact that they had £146m towards a transfer budget, they can afford to bring VVD in and another £70m player before they start dipping into funds outside of a Coutinho sale.
VVD was the low risk option, and they needed to minimise that when spending current rates and above for defenders. It would have been an absolute shit show if they got foreign league promising defender hoping he'd adapt like Bailey and saw him adapt like Mangala instead. They've already made too many underwhelming transfers in that area to be able to afford another one.
Klopp cared about value 12 months ago..
I just think it's important to be clear that as the most expensive defender in history he will not be given a free pass when he reveals his limitations.
That was Klopp being hypocritical.
Fair enough if you are saying the price tag is a factor to be considered when evaluating him and his performance going forward.
Klopp took over Liverpool 2 years ago and only now is he beginning to address the defensive issues at the club, after selling their most valued player I might add. That is tantamount to gross negligence if you ask me.
Laporte immediately springs to mind. He's got all the attributes you mention and he wouldn't have cost much more than your paid for VVD.
Mammana is a younger version of thew above and far cheaper. I hope United sign this lad, from what I've seen so far he looks top draw.
I've seen a few of these now. You can absolutely see why Klopp is so keen on Keita .... he looks like the perfect player to knit our defence to attack. He actually has more dribbles in him per match than Coutinho !
More stats to annoy Religion.
Naby Keita's stats per 90 this season:
2.7 interceptions
3.5 successful tackles
4.5 succesful dribbles
1.8 key passes
0.3 goals
An analysis of his various strengths - this is a pretty good 6 mins watch:
I'll cry if he's not this good for us in the PL .... really hope we stump up the cash and get him in to play maybe up to 20 games for us in the remainder of the season (15 PL and maybe up to 5 in the FAC perhaps).
More stats to annoy Religion.
Naby Keita's stats per 90 this season:
2.7 interceptions
3.5 successful tackles
4.5 succesful dribbles
1.8 key passes
0.3 goals
An analysis of his various strengths - this is a pretty good 6 mins watch:
I'll cry if he's not this good for us in the PL .... really hope we stump up the cash and get him in to play maybe up to 20 games for us in the remainder of the season (15 PL and maybe up to 5 in the FAC perhaps).
No VVD today, injured with a thigh strain.
Yeah I heard that but hoped it wasn't true. Bollocks.