Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

[flappyjay]

Ajax now reportedly want 50m pounds for him. Those who follow Dutch football; is he really worth that much? I mean, that's significantly more than Gabriel Jesus or Kalvin Phillips is going for. At that price, you'd be expecting someone to come in and be an immediate impact player.

I saw that apparently Antony would cost around 60m too. That's too much for those 2, we need to start looking around if that's the case.

 

[lsd]

Eriksen is a free and he knows him from Ajax. He let him train for them. Malacia is Dutch that he knows from hs old league. If you cant see he is targeting Dutch and ex players and players from his old league which means basically fk scouting then I dont know what to tell you. Also I was being facetious abot the barbeque buddies. I dint mean it literally. But the point still stands.

If he goes after Haller i will really start to worry

 

[sillwuka]

Tell me if I am wrong but in a PL match he would not be afforded that much room and time on the ball unlike in the CL environment. Thus the physicality of the PL.

You're not wrong so he has to adapt to the pace of the league

 

[roonster09]

That seems unlikely to me - passing is considered one of Maguire's fortes, and Lindelof is good at it too. Not a weakness of Varane's either, though he is probably the weakest of those 3 in that department. My money would be on our problems playing a high line, not just because of limited pace in the backline, but equally because of what's in front of and behind them: A midfield with little ability to control space defensively, and a keeper who largely stays on his line.

But who knows. There's talk now of wanting two new CBs, so it has to be something.

When it comes to passing I would rate Lindelof, Varane, Maguire in that order. Maguire is good dribbler and carries the ball well but his passing is average.

Preseason games will give decent idea on how the players are rated. If we sign Martinez, then I think Martinez and Varane will be our starting CBs.

 

[RedorDead21]

You're not wrong so he has to adapt to the pace of the league

Or just slow the games down to his pace…that’s how great players think

 

[Real Name]

If he goes after Haller i will really start to worry

Haller signed for Dortmund recently.

 

[sglowrider]

Not really. Hardly any of the players we bought under LvG were suited to his style of play. Blind was the obvious exception, and he’s been a key player for ETH as well.

Definitely. I really can’t see us going down the Jose/Conte route.

As far as I can tell, the reason we’ve gone for the manager’s targets is because our scouting is still not fit for purpose. If Arnold and Murtough are serious about their jobs they aren’t going to stand around and do nothing about that.

Our scouting department must have been one of the most political and dysfunctional departments within the organisation. And that's saying a lot.
So many of them, all with different ideas of who is a Manchester United player.

 

[Bestietom]

Martinez has everything you want in a player. Strong, always wants to win the 50 50 balls and he is a leader. He can leap high for a rather small CB and wins most of his aerial duels.
Canavara, and Mascherano, when he moved into the CB position were top and so too was Puyol.
He can also play as a DM in games that we need to see out.

 

[Revaulx]

Our scouting department must have been one of the most political and dysfunctional departments within the organisation. And that's saying a lot.
So many of them, all with different ideas of who is a Manchester United player.

Absolutely. Maybe Woodward liked it that way, so he could keep on playing at being the DoF? He certainly made no attempt to fix it.

 

[golden_blunder]

Why is this a thing now? Its said everywhere. Its not understandable to me. So every manager should just get in his ex players or players he knows? Like fk the scouting system? Im pretty sure Klopp and Guardiola dont have a best buddie scouting agenda. Sure you go for your ex players now and again. De Jong for example - fine. But as a policy? How weak and pathetic a manager do you need to be to have to get your buddies around you? Im sure it would be nice. They could have Dutch barbeque Sundays. Clog Thursdays anyone? But realistically its stupid to be so close minded with transfers. You should be able to form the trust and bond with the squad you have and any player you bring in even if they are from somewhere else than you. And you should have a top notch scouting system and not have to rely on your new manager to tell you all his buddies he wants to bring in. Seriously - Who works like that!

You are extremely close minded yourself. It’s not like he’s the first manager to do it either; Fergie, Moyes, Jose before him.

Besides by having players who have worked with him before it helps get the others training and playing in the way he wants, much quicker.

by the way, before Pep even arrived at City, they employed the DoF’s that he worked with at Barca for years. They did all the groundwork and provided him with the types of players that they knew he’d like from day 1

 

[golden_blunder]

If he goes after Haller i will really start to worry

He’s already joined Dortmund, keep up

 

[hellhunter]

He’s already joined Dortmund, keep up

We do love an expensive Dortmund signing, to be fair

 

[sglowrider]

Martinez has everything you want in a player. Strong, always wants to win the 50 50 balls and he is a leader. He can leap high for a rather small CB and wins most of his aerial duels.
Canavara, and Mascherano, when he moved into the CB position were top and so too was Puyol.
He can also play as a DM in games that we need to see out.

But they never did play in the PL -- or certainly, as a CB in the case of Mascherano is 5ft 10, who I think is still taller than Martinez at 5ft 7. or 5ft 8 with boots on.

I understand the logic for Martinez but its certainly counter-intuitive for the PL.

Just look at all the CBs in the top 4 teams or top 6, they are blessed with tallish CBs, who are fast and good on the ball. Few obvious flaws that they need to over-compensate for (like height) and who can deal with the Mertovics or Haalands of the world. Our best defenders were 6ft 3 and 6ft 2 as in Rio and Vidic.

 

[UpWithRivers]

You are extremely close minded yourself. It’s not like he’s the first manager to do it either; Fergie, Moyes, Jose before him.

Besides by having players who have worked with him before it helps get the others training and playing in the way he wants, much quicker.

by the way, before Pep even arrived at City, they employed the DoF’s that he worked with at Barca for years. They did all the groundwork and provided him with the types of players that they knew he’d like from day 1

Firstly - Moyes! Is he a good example?! Sir Alex was a different era and Jose at least worked at top clubs. But none of them signed players exclusivly from thier old clubs or native country or old league anyway? So whats the point. Yeah they got one or two

having players who have worked with him before it helps get the others training and playing in the way he wants, much quicker - who cares? Yeah its a nice to have. But surely its point 10 or something. Surely points 1-9 are how good the player is and his character. Knowing your manager should not come up in scout reports. Or at least it should be way down on the list

by the way, before Pep even arrived at City, they employed the DoF’s that he worked with at Barca for years. They did all the groundwork and provided him with the types of players that they knew he’d like from day 1 - Well exactly. Maybe lets do this? We had Rangnick. Then chucked him and the scouts out and said het Ten Haag know any good players?

 

[Bogga]

Puyol is regarded as a quite good CB, but short with his 178cm...

 

[Bestietom]

But they never did play in the PL -- or certainly, as a CB in the case of Mascherano is 5ft 10, who I think is still taller than Martinez at 5ft 7. or 5ft 8 with boots on.

I understand the logic for Martinez but its certainly counter-intuitive for the PL.

Just look at all the CBs in the top 4 teams or top 6, they are blessed with tallish CBs, who are fast and good on the ball. Few obvious flaws that they need to over-compensate for (like height) and who can deal with the Mertovics or Haalands of the world. Our best defenders were 6ft 3 and 6ft 2 as in Rio and Vidic.

Mascherano 5ft 8
Martinez 5ft 9
Canavaro 5ft 9

 

[golden_blunder]

Firstly - Moyes! Is he a good example?! Sir Alex was a different era and Jose at least worked at top clubs. But none of them signed players exclusivly from thier old clubs or native country or old league anyway? So whats the point. Yeah they got one or two

having players who have worked with him before it helps get the others training and playing in the way he wants, much quicker - who cares? Yeah its a nice to have. But surely its point 10 or something. Surely points 1-9 are how good the player is and his character. Knowing your manager should not come up in scout reports. Or at least it should be way down on the list

by the way, before Pep even arrived at City, they employed the DoF’s that he worked with at Barca for years. They did all the groundwork and provided him with the types of players that they knew he’d like from day 1 - Well exactly. Maybe lets do this? We had Rangnick. Then chucked him and the scouts out and said het Ten Haag know any good players?

So what’s point 1 - 9 the seeing as you are the expert that’s worked it all out?

re Pep, you’re the one saying that he and Klopp didn’t do it. It’s not equal footing to criticize ETH is it, if city was already setup for Pep

lastly why not Moyes? You can’t pick and choose which ones you want. I’ve given you 3 UNITED managers who did it before him so what’s the problem?

 

[sglowrider]

Why is this a thing now? Its said everywhere. Its not understandable to me. So every manager should just get in his ex players or players he knows? Like fk the scouting system? Im pretty sure Klopp and Guardiola dont have a best buddie scouting agenda. Sure you go for your ex players now and again. De Jong for example - fine. But as a policy? How weak and pathetic a manager do you need to be to have to get your buddies around you? Im sure it would be nice. They could have Dutch barbeque Sundays. Clog Thursdays anyone? But realistically its stupid to be so close minded with transfers. You should be able to form the trust and bond with the squad you have and any player you bring in even if they are from somewhere else than you. And you should have a top notch scouting system and not have to rely on your new manager to tell you all his buddies he wants to bring in. Seriously - Who works like that!

He sold to United Donnie, when he was DVB's manager. So he would know Donnie's capabilities. And yet after coming over to United, nobody seem to be able to find a role for him -- wrong systems and players.
So maybe he doesn't trust the United scouting system?

We basically pissed away £1.2Billion in the last 10 years with little to show for. It gave us an ensalada of players instead -- without a consistency through out our buys. Reactionary choices of managers, with pendulum swings from one philosophy to another with the players stuck on long term contracts.


Would you trust their eyes then? Without a DOF then to take responsibility, then the buck stops with Woodward.

 

[Flexdegea]

Yeah but with all due respect the bottom half of the Dutch League is probably on par with league one or two in England.

That midfield won't be good enough defensively against top ten PL teams. We will get ran through at ease.

The same midfield was tanking teams in the champs league too.


That's how wee know he can get it to work against better opposition whether people think it's mostly against league 1 or not

 

[sglowrider]

That wouldn't reduce the need for a DM! A front footed CB and a DM are completely different, the don't occupy the same space or function the same.

It's also just too aggressive tactically for a side as poor as us to pull off, let alone to put that pressure on a young lad stepping up from the Dutch league to the Prem. Plus, Maguire and Lindelof as underwhelming as they are, are better than McFred, so I'd be much happier with Martinez in midfield and Maguire/Lindelof over McFred.

tbh. I was trying to be optimistic and looking at a half-glass-full scenario.

 

[UpWithRivers]

So what’s point 1 - 9 the seeing as you are the expert that’s worked it all out?

re Pep, you’re the one saying that he and Klopp didn’t do it. It’s not equal footing to criticize ETH is it, if city was already setup for Pep

lastly why not Moyes? You can’t pick and choose which ones you want. I’ve given you 3 UNITED managers who did it before him so what’s the problem?

So what’s point 1 - 9 the seeing as you are the expert that’s worked it all out? - So your telling me that the scouts and the management team sit in a conference room discussing players and the key point is... does the manager know him? Point one on the agenda. Ok then

re Pep, you’re the one saying that he and Klopp didn’t do it. It’s not equal footing to criticize ETH is it, if city was already setup for Pep - If you are saying Pep did it the right way then therefore we are doing it the wrong way. Proves my point doesnt it?

lastly why not Moyes? You can’t pick and choose which ones you want. I’ve given you 3 UNITED managers who did it before him so what’s the problem? - Firstly those three managers did not get players exclusively from their old clubs, nationality or league. So what are you on about? Secondly why not Moyes? Because he was mocked for getting Fellaini just because he was his old player. He is not a good example if a manager getting ex players and it working out brilliantly. Moyes is proving my point - not yours.

 

[Idxomer]

Firstly - Moyes! Is he a good example?! Sir Alex was a different era and Jose at least worked at top clubs.

He brought 4 players directly from Portugal with him when he joined Chelsea. His only experience working at a top club as a manager was Porto, the same as Ten Hag with Ajax.

I mostly agree with the overall point though, Ten Hag gets a pass this year because of the structural mess at the club. I also think he's targeting good players we need anyway. Our transfer targets will need to evolve from next summer which I expect/hope will happen.

 

[golden_blunder]

So what’s point 1 - 9 the seeing as you are the expert that’s worked it all out? - So your telling me that the scouts and the management team sit in a conference room discussing players and the key point is... does the manager know him? Point one on the agenda. Ok then

re Pep, you’re the one saying that he and Klopp didn’t do it. It’s not equal footing to criticize ETH is it, if city was already setup for Pep - If you are saying Pep did it the right way then therefore we are doing it the wrong way. Proves my point doesnt it?

lastly why not Moyes? You can’t pick and choose which ones you want. I’ve given you 3 UNITED managers who did it before him so what’s the problem? - Firstly those three managers did not get players exclusively from their old clubs, nationality or league. So what are you on about? Secondly why not Moyes? Because he was mocked for getting Fellaini just because he was his old player. He is not a good example if a manager getting ex players and it working out brilliantly.

This post is idiotic, as are the last 2

 

[AjaxCunian]

This transfer is happening and will happen this week, Ajax is going to spend over 50 million euro's (Bergwijn 30, Wijndal 10, Brobbey 15+) this summer, which definitely means that Haller, Gravenberch's and Martinez' transfer fees will be put to use.

 

[UpWithRivers]

He brought 4 players directly from Portugal with him when he joined Chelsea. His only experience working at a top club as a manager was Porto, the same as Ten Hag with Ajax.

I mostly agree with the overall point though, Ten Hag gets a pass this year because of the structural mess at the club. I also think he's targeting good players we need anyway. Our transfer targets will need to evolve from next summer which I expect/hope will happen.

I was talking aout Mourinho at Man Utd not Chelsea. Mourinho did bring his ex players to Chelsea but guess what - they just won the Champions league! So I would say in that case it was a good plan but only because he got some other great players from elsewhere as well and they signed like 9 players. Most of the Portuguese players were only ok ish - Ferrera etc apart from Carvahlo. But the best of the 9 were from elsewhere - Drogba, Robben, Cech
Ill add a clause - Im going by memory so details might be wrong

 

[golden_blunder]

I was talking aout Mourinho at Man Utd not Chelsea. Mourinho did bring his ex players to Chelsea but guess what - they just won the Champions league! So I would say in that case it was a good plan but only because he got some other great players from elsewhere as well and they signed like 9 players. Most of the Portuguese players were only ok ish - Ferrera etc apart from Carvahlo. But the best of the 9 were from elsewhere - Drogba, Robben, Cech
Ill add a clause - Im going by memory so details might be wrong

So you’ve changed the goalposts again to suit

 

[Longlivekeano]

———-—————-Ddg—————-

———————Varane—————-

——Maguire———-Martinez—-

-elanga——FdJ—Fred——Shaw-

—-Bruno——rashford—-Sancho-

(3-4-3 maybe?? With a sweeper)

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

From Dani Alves to Kyle Walker is definitely tempering.

The biggest change from early to late Pep is how he uses his fullbacks and the kinds of players he selects.

So basically it’s the same thing in term of balance then. Instead of having a CM and Dani Alves, he plays AM and Walker.

 

[UpWithRivers]

So you’ve changed the goalposts again to suit

How so? Buying ex players when your old club is Real Madrid for example or Ajax is two separate things. Same as buying from your old club if they are Champions league winners Like Mourinho did. If Ajax just won the Champions League it would be a totally different story. Also buying 4 of 9 players is different from buying all 4/5 players from your old club/league. Also most of his players from his old club didnt work out. So it proved a bad move. If he signed 9 players from Portugal Chelsea would have been fkd. No Drogba, Czech or Robben to start with.
At the end of the day no one is saying dont buy Ajax players. Go for it. But is a policy of buying all your ex players, countrymen, ex league players a good policy? Should all clubs now implement that? Yes or no? I would say no. Generally its a stupid move. Could it work out? Sure. But its still a risky policy. What's a good policy - see Pep/Klopp. Do that maybe?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

VDS is GOAT if he accepts our 40m bid and Arsenal 45m bid.

 

[Abraxas]

How so? Buying ex players when your old club is Real Madrid for example or Ajax is two separate things. Same as buying from your old club if they are Champions league winners Like Mourinho did. If Ajax just won the Champions League it would be a totally different story. Also buying 4 of 9 players is different from buying all 4/5 players from your old club/league. Also most of his players from his old club didnt work out. So it proved a bad move. If he signed 9 players from Portugal Chelsea would have been fkd. No Drogba, Czech or Robben to start with.
At the end of the day no one is saying dont buy Ajax players. Go for it. But is a policy of buying yur ex players, countrymen, ex league players a good policy? Should all clubs now implement that? Yes or no? I would say no. Generally its a stupid move. Could it work out? Sure. But its still a risky policy. Whats a good policy - see Pep/Klopp. Do that maybe?

Everybody knows we don't have the meticulous setup that Klopp and Pep enjoy. I don't think many would dispute that in an ideal world we'd have an elite scouting setup scouring the planet and that would be the default mechanism for finding players. However, we can infer from the fact that our policy has been unsuccessful and lacking any consistency that this has not been the case.

I think what we're seeing is a short term measure to secure players the manager has first hand knowledge of their ability to improve us. It we were still signing all of his players in year 3 I would be concerned but as it is I'm not sure what you're getting up in arms about. It's pretty clear it's not rely on a successful scouting system versus recruit the manager's pals so I don't know how you've managed to completely gloss over the context of these decisions. What I'd hope is that we're addressing things.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

Mascherano 5ft 8 = 172 cm
Martinez 5ft 9 = 175 cm
Canavaro 5ft 9 = 175 cm

*For me and others who only know metric measurements their whole lives.

 

[Daslogisch]

How so? Buying ex players when your old club is Real Madrid for example or Ajax is two separate things. Same as buying from your old club if they are Champions league winners Like Mourinho did. If Ajax just won the Champions League it would be a totally different story. Also buying 4 of 9 players is different from buying all 4/5 players from your old club/league. Also most of his players from his old club didnt work out. So it proved a bad move. If he signed 9 players from Portugal Chelsea would have been fkd. No Drogba, Czech or Robben to start with.
At the end of the day no one is saying dont buy Ajax players. Go for it. But is a policy of buying all your ex players, countrymen, ex league players a good policy? Should all clubs now implement that? Yes or no? I would say no. Generally its a stupid move. Could it work out? Sure. But its still a risky policy. What's a good policy - see Pep/Klopp. Do that maybe?

To some extent I agree with you. Ten Hag is also taking a risk only going after Dutch (league) players. On the other hand it's understandable. Let's be honest here, United has been very poorly run in the past decade. Ten Hag knows this and knows he might not get a lot of time to get things going. The club's scouting list is not adjusted to his style of football, cause they've played very differently in the past 10 years. Therefore he can't trust scouting.

I think Ten Hag just wants to make sure he has some kind of foundation to work with by bringing 3-5 players in that he knows he can use and trust in his type of football. By next season the scouting should be well aware of the attributes Ten Hag needs for each position. Hence for next season the scouting should be able to get players from anywhere to fit into the team. Therefore I'd expect more diversity in Uniteds targets next season. For this season it seems like it's mainly about setting up Ten Hag up with a decent enough foundation to start executing his plan. This is fair enough in my opinion, especially considering United does not seem to have an enormous transfer kitty available.

 

[Daslogisch]

VDS is GOAT if he accepts our 40m bid and Arsenal 45m bid.

Are you from Amsterdam? Cause it sounds like you smoke a lot of weed. For one VDS is not responsible for transfers and not involved in those negatiations. Secondly, even if he was, why in the world would he? He's working for Ajax, not Man Utd.

 

[Trex]

To some extent I agree with you. Ten Hag is also taking a risk only going after Dutch (league) players. On the other hand it's understandable. Let's be honest here, United has been very poorly run in the past decade. Ten Hag knows this and knows he might not get a lot of time to get things going. The club's scouting list is not adjusted to his style of football, cause they've played very differently in the past 10 years. Therefore he can't trust scouting.

I think Ten Hag just wants to make sure he has some kind of foundation to work with by bringing 3-5 players in that he knows he can use and trust in his type of football. By next season the scouting should be well aware of the attributes Ten Hag needs for each position. Hence for next season the scouting should be able to get players from anywhere to fit into the team. Therefore I'd expect more diversity in Uniteds targets next season. For this season it seems like it's mainly about setting up Ten Hag up with a decent enough foundation to start executing his plan. This is fair enough in my opinion, especially considering United does not seem to have an enormous transfer kitty available.

Yes I agree with this, and I think his list of targets are good, they're all young (aside Eriksen but he is free) players and from what I've seen are talented, if he was targeting Tadic or Blind then that would be worrying.

 

[Daslogisch]

Yes I agree with this, and I think his list of targets are good, they're all young (aside Eriksen but he is free) players and from what I've seen are talented, if he was targeting Tadic or Blind then that would be worrying.

I honestly wouldnt be suprised to see him target Tadic if Ronaldo really goes. There are no world class strikers available/affordable or even interested in United. Ten Hag knows he can use Tadic as a false 9. I don't think it's likely, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Sir Erik ten Hag]

I honestly wouldnt be suprised to see him target Tadic if Ronaldo really goes. There are no world class strikers available/affordable or even interested in United. Ten Hag knows he can use Tadic as a false 9. I don't think it's likely, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Do you think Tadic is better than the likes of Giroud and Fellaini for this battering ram role?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Are you from Amsterdam? Cause it sounds like you smoke a lot of weed. For one VDS is not responsible for transfers and not involved in those negatiations. Secondly, even if he was, why in the world would he? He's working for Ajax, not Man Utd.

CEO has more power to change the decision to whoever below him in the company. That’s why I said he’s GOAT if he does.

 

[Daslogisch]

Do you think Tadic is better than the likes of Giroud and Fellaini for this battering ram role?

Huh? Taking the piss now?

Tadic obviously isn't used in the same way as Giroud or Fellaini.

 

[VP89]

Eirksen Malacia and Martinez before Friday I reckon.

Martinez is already in London right?