Has anyone seen betting odds on his next club? Nothing on sky bet, we’re odds on for Eriksen and De Jong. I assumed we’d be odds on for Martinez as well?
Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United
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I really think a back three is the way to go next season if we sign this guy.
Like you, I know little about him. Though I thought this data shared on Reddit was interesting. The top comment from the thread also highlights that he's in the top 1% across a number of key passing metrics:
I think all parties no he isn't worth that much, Ajax are trying to price him out of a move so it will take Antony to push for this transfer to happen.
Good thing he is keen.
It has to be worth Ajax's time too, though - we're threatening to decimate them if given the chance.
If they wanted to sell the player, they wouldn't price him out of a move, and as we're aware, ten Hag will take 2, maybe 3 players of theirs with him. Makes sense for them to put their foot down.
I think he is probably as fast on the first meters and a lot more agile, which is usually more important.
He is fast enough to play left back as well but he isn't crazy fast like Varane was (Varane isnt either, mind).
I understand they've lost Haller, Gravenbach, Mazouri already.
But if they can give us Antony and Martinez we promise we'll only come back in the future for Timber and that would be that
Remember English folks: it's Mar TEA Nez ...not Martin ehz
they're getting gutted either way. Gravenberch, Haller and Mazzraoui have already left, Martinez is a goner too (if it's not us, it'll be Arsenal or somebody else). Timber will probably stay for another year, but all the other key players are leaving. It's a tough spot for Ajax. Sure, they have to put their foot down at some point, but I doubt Antony will just quietly accept being priced out of a move while all the others got to leave.
They are - but they also have €100 million after selling Martinez - you can get a lot of good players in the Dutch league for that amount of money.
Its honestly problem for the past decade and has infuriated me especially as all our rivals have progressed exceptional in this aspect. The only season we looked good in this regard was when we had Blind at CB and Mourinho binned him off the first chance he got.
It was especially glaring under Ole, he said he wanted us playing out from the back but the positioning of the team was awful and the passes were either not precise or too slow so it was rendered useless. Jose didn't even care for possession so no surprise it was bad especially playing Smalling and Jones.
One of the main reasons why we've been poor in big games in recent seasons is because we are hopeless at passing out from the back against an aggressive press. We give up the ball far too easily and catch ourselves on the back foot.
Its why I'm happy with the signings EtH is targeting. They might not work but its signalling the intent to be dominant on the ball and opening up passing lanes from the back. Martinez and de Jong is an immense upgrade in passing. Malacia looks very good at passing too.
They may well use a solid portion of the incoming funds and replace what they're losing, and once sorted, relent and let Anthony go for a reasonable price, but they wouldn't just price him out like they are currently doing if they were in the frame of mind to let him go at the moment.
I mean, it messes up their pre-season too if they don't sort out their squad and starting xi in good time, so I don't think what they're doing is for show. They'll get their house in order first and foremost and then make a decision on him, no matter what his protestations are, I think.
Timber just turned 21, while Martinez is 24. Odd assessment.
Fairly certain one of the reasons we are trying to sign him is that he is left-footed and ten Hag like other coaches values having at least one CB, who is good at passing with his left foot. Maguire is probably going to be his partner and will permanently switch to RCB.
I like the versatility of Martinez who can play CB or in midfield. Hopefully one that we can lock up shortly after De Jong, Malacia and Eriksen.
Do you think that Luke Shaw has all the attributes to play in the LCB position?
I do and was quite impressed when Ole played him there a couple of times.
Ajax aren't gutted. Gravenberch and Mazraoui are already replaced by academy players(Rensch and Taylor). So only Haller needs to be replaced. But yes Timber will stay another year. Martinez will go i guess, if someone pays up the €50m+ asking price.
Yes, I think Shaw has it in him to be utilised as a LCB.
Which teams would be in the market for a defender that is not determined?
We're only after these players because they played for ETH in a dominant team in a weak league.
It'll be no surprise when half of them come over here and realise playing in the PL is a whole other kettle of fish (the occasional CL game doesn't change anything).
It's a bit sad that our transfer strategy, once again, is to let the manager sign who he wants. It brought us AWB, Maguire and Van De Beek under Ole. Too many people are relying on "he fits ETH's style of play", people said the same initially about Ralph having a modern style of play until we realised that was a load of bollocks.
I get people are optimistic about new signings but there should be more criticism, our way of doing things is so outdated and so prone to failure (relying on managers to be both a great coach and a great talent scout).
Signing another CB for big money, and for what? We already have 4 starting international CBs that supposedly are good at playing with the ball to feet. It's genuinely baffling why we do this every summer, waste a good chunk of our budget on another CB, and wonder why the team still looks shit. Hint: bad scouting strategy and bad team building plan
It'll be no surprise when half of them come over here and realise playing in the PL is a whole other kettle of fish (the occasional CL game doesn't change anything).
It's a bit sad that our transfer strategy, once again, is to let the manager sign who he wants. It brought us AWB, Maguire and Van De Beek under Ole. Too many people are relying on "he fits ETH's style of play", people said the same initially about Ralph having a modern style of play until we realised that was a load of bollocks.
I get people are optimistic about new signings but there should be more criticism, our way of doing things is so outdated and so prone to failure (relying on managers to be both a great coach and a great talent scout).
Signing another CB for big money, and for what? We already have 4 starting international CBs that supposedly are good at playing with the ball to feet. It's genuinely baffling why we do this every summer, waste a good chunk of our budget on another CB, and wonder why the team still looks shit. Hint: bad scouting strategy and bad team building plan
That is why I think it is a strange move going for this guy if we are getting Malacia as well.
Unless there is a lot of rotation which is not ideal as I think the bedrock of a good team is a settled defence than one of the three is going to spend a lot of time on the bench.
Shaw spends quite a bit of time injured, so can't be relied upon imo.
Yeah… this just ain’t it bro.
It is verging on worrying to an extent, when you look at just the incoming players, it's easy to be wary & get carried away.
But factor in, we need a mentality reboot and EtH knows the mentality of these players.
If you look back in his history, he does usually sign players he has worked with before - to much success.
Surely your eyes tell you that they are not good at playing with the ball at feet? Unless you count sideways at a snails pace.
besides none of them can stay fit
Maguire was a club signing, Jose wanted him the year before. AWB was the result of 800 scouted rightbacks. Our recruiting dept are the last ones we should be listening to right now.
We barely had any players that fit Rangnick's style of play and that didn't work... and this is evidence to you that we shouldn't get players that fit the new manager's style of play?
That's like saying we've tried shooting the gun without bullets and that hasn't worked, therefore putting bullets in it is obviously a waste of time.
I'm willing to let it fly this summer because changes are new and I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that we haven't got the scouting side of things fully sorted yet.
However, unlike most on here who flip flop on opinions as quickly as the wind changes, I haven't spent a lot of time bemoaning our structure and lack of a DoF for no reason. The thread about us appointing a DoF must have had hundreds of posts a day at times saying how we can't allow managers to just pick who we sign and then, when they get sacked, the next manager is in a bigger hole with new ideas.
The hypocrisy is off the charts at times. I think people are just so desperate for some hope to cling to that they'll forget their old opinions and declare this the best way of operating. Even though most, if not all, well run clubs don't operate this way anymore.
We barely had any players that fit Rangnick's style of play and that didn't work... and this is evidence to you that we shouldn't get players that fit the new manager's style of play?
That's like saying we've tried shooting the gun without bullets and that hasn't worked, therefore putting bullets in it is obviously a waste of time.
The whole point is that the "style" shouldn't be dictated manager by manager. It should be set by the club, with players and managers the signed that fit this vision.
It looks like FBREF comparison stats with other centre backs is just based on European games then, based on 8 games over the last year. It's not the best sample size but he's in bottom 20th percentile for percentage aerial duels which doesn't come as a surprise.
I honestly think everyone is so desperate for signings that they're going to be positive about any signings even if it goes against their best judgement. It seemed like most people on this forum managed to convinced themselves the fact Maguire can't run wouldn't be an issue because it's "all about positioning" or whatever the spiel was, just so we could put a positive spin on a signing that clearly had severe limitations (and I tried to convince myself of this also).
I'd bet decent money that at the end of the season the whole forum will be questioning whether he has the physicality needed to be a first choice centre back for us. If he's not going to be a guaranteed mainstay in our centre of defence long term, it will feel like a bit of a wasted signing. It's incredibly likely he's going to lose a lot of duels on long balls and crosses, more than a truly aerially dominant centre back should. Logically he just won't be able to consistently come out on top against the most physically and aerially dominant players in the oppositions teams. He may be great in other areas, but I don't see why we should be constantly trying to compromise and compensate for significant weaknesses when we don't have to. We're hoping we have an exception, we're hoping we get away with it, we're hoping it won't be an issue.
I could be wrong so I guess we'll revisit in a year's time.
Is he good then?
Physicality doesn't start and end with height though. I haven't seen him much, but from the all touch vids against Dortmund and Benfica, he seemed to perform very well against Haaland and Nunez for example.
Is he reliable source?
I would agree with you if we were signing all 5 players from Ajax but I have to say give it some time. The only player that played for Ten Hag last season that we may end up getting is this guy.
Malacia is a cheap signing that can provide backup to Luke Shaw (We spent more on Amad), he's not going to be an important first team player. Eriksen has proven it in the PL and FDJ was starting for Barca for the last 3-4 years and a midfielder that is good enough for Barca is most certainly good enough for us. You need to take a breather mate.
In the 2 aerial duels we saw in the Haaland video, it wasn't even a contest? Haaland won both easily. The last one at 1.59 of the video Haaland won the header and Dortmund briefly had a 2v1 in attack precisely because he won the physical battle with ease.
And it's not that a centre back can't ever lose a duel obviously, it just comes down to frequency and competitiveness. In an aerial duel that's considered a 50/50 ball, the opposition's most physically dominant players will win the large majority against any 5ft 9 player.
And besides, we judge players over the 50 games they play in a season. There will no doubt be games where teams either don't get enough of a foothold to cause us any trouble, or they don't manage to isolate their aerially strong players against our weakest aerial CB, or they fail to isolate him in dangerous positions. Over the course of the season though, there will be so many times where we wish we had a centre back who met the pre-requisite for aerial dominance.
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I can't see a CB this tiny working out in the premier league, think Ten Hag is being a bit naive here. Hope I am wrong though.
I looked hard at those Fbref numbers as well. It’s not % of aerial duels won, it’s the number of aerial duels won, and it’s quite low because Ajax had a lot of possession. Ruben Dias is even lower (17th percentile) and we know he is very good in the air.
like you said, we’ll just have to see.
They had both total aerials and % won.
| Statistic | Per 90 | Percentile |
|---|
| Aerials won | 2.00 | 23 |
|---|---|---|
| Aerials lost | 1.63 | 42 |
| % of Aerials Won | 55.2% | 20 |
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