I think both Jones and Baily will be cut next season, although that won't mean we have space for 2 CBs.
Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United
- Thread starter darioterios
- Start date
- Status
Given Ajax regularly sell on players for decent profits and a lot of the time, seem to buy cheap/bring through youth..
... where does all that profit go?
@AjaxCunian @Ajaxsuarez @Terranova
... where does all that profit go?
@AjaxCunian @Ajaxsuarez @Terranova
It's not just strikers that provide an aerial threat. There are lots of towering CB's in this league like VVD/Vestergaard, and tall midfielders like Soucek attacking setpieces and jumping for long balls.
City and Liverpool get by well with 3 aerially strong players (their DMs and both CBs), so if we play a shorter CB, we probably need to make sure we have an aerially strong DM and maybe a taller fullback, or #8 or even a #9 could maybe do it, since they play winger types up there. If we signed say Nunez and he can defend set pieces well, we'd have the same number as those guys.
Or Timber might be being signed to play RB and the plan is use him as a Kyle Walker type with an attacking left back and a winger wide on the right. Then we'd have probably have 2 CBs good in the air and the DM.
Rojo regen
You are right that we would have to compensate elsewhere, but this limits your options in one of the other positions as you have to prioritise aerial ability over other things. This is how you end up with someone like Mctominay being picked in midfield just because he can head the ball. I am not a fan of using him as a makeshift full back, I don't really understand why you wouldn't just buy a proper one instead for the £40-50 million Timber will cost.
Inappropriate Content
This. Retarded journalism.
Amsterdam is approximately, and I mean this with all the love in the world, 4,637 times better than Manchester to live in. I've done the exact math. I say this as someone who has lived in both and found problems with each.
I have no idea if Lisandro Martinez is any good, but he has a wonderful name.
He's good but we'd be mad to pick him over Timber IMO.
CAFE: “How long have you been a defender?”
MARTINEZ : “4ft 1”
MARTINEZ : “4ft 1”
According to the annual financial reports, our "eigen vermogen" (equity?) went from €6 million in 2010 to €261m in 2019.
The 2021 report has that figure back down to €220m though (corona, I guess)
I never fully understand what this figure actually is though.
I very strongly disagree..
Also an Ajax fan here so my 2 cents; De Ligt, Martinez, Timber.
The other 2 undecided on but also clearly a few levels lower. De Ligt is the standout though. Solid on the ball as well as solid defensively. For me De Ligt is clearly world class, even if Juve dont get the best out of him. Timber and Martinez are solid players and have room to grow (also literally), but also have more weaknesses.
Lisandro is a brilliant left footed defender, something we are missing. He is not tall but has an excellent leap on him. He's quick enough to play left back if necessary and he has that Argentinian aggression. I would love to see him alongside Varanne
Even though all calculations are probably very complicated, conceptually the answer is very simple...
In the yearly budget Ajax assumes they play Champions League football and that they sell for about 50 million euro's of players per year... That's what they need on average to have a break even year covering alle their operational and incidental outgoing cost (what they pay in salaries, marketing, transferfees etc). So a lot of the incoming transfersfees are necessary to cover all finances that year. And you can image this is a risky piece of business for Ajax as its not unthinkable whatsoever for Ajax to miss out on CL or not to meet the 50 million euros incoming transferfees, so they also need to build om some reserves.
This risky planning though is what made Ajax successful over the last couple years. They immensly raised their salary house which made it possible to get Tadic, Blind, Haller and keep players like Ziyech and vd Beek around longer than they would have 10 years ago. They also started paying more higher transfer fees than ever before.. Around 15 million for Alvarez, Antony, Blind and Tadic, 22 for Haller, and that are a lot more 7-10 million buys done over the last couple of years (Daramy, Marin, Magallan, Martinez, Klaiber, Klaassen, Neres, Berghuis, Bande to name some). Thats absolutely insane when you think that Ajax earns about 8 million euros per year in TV money and that when Ajax started applying above financial strategy, we hadn't been champions and hadnt qualified for Champions League for a couple of years.
United have been linked with Tyrell Malacia already, he's 5'7" I think.
Designations are indeed sort of arbitrary.
The metropolitan area/conurbation to which Amsterdam belongs (De Randstad) has 8 million inhabitants. It includes other cities, which you could discount, but then again, those are artificial designations as well and some are within a 20 minute drive.
Hey @Cheimoon , every been to Manchester?
I disagree respectfully. I think that was even one of the main qualities Martinez was scouted on, his long passing in the air is insanely good.
I think it's probably smart for Ten Hag to take a player or two he's familiar with from a team that's better than us but still a selling club and full of young talent, especially since only VDB and Sancho really stick out as players who I'd expect to be comfortable in his system and aren't old and only here for a year or two more like Cristiano.
If Timber is basically Azpilicueta, then 40-50M for a decade of service at multiple positions will be worth it.
For all we know, the plan is Shaw-Varane-Timber in a back 3.
No chance of this happening. Our next cb signing will be as quick or quicker than Varane.
Considering how much pace Varane appear to have lost, I would argue he probably is quicker. And, more important, a lot more agile.
I agree, it doesn't look like Varane has the recovery pace he once had.
There is a reason why you don't find any starting central defenders in the top 15 clubs in the league who are under 5ft 10in, never mind under six feet.
If you are under 5ft10, surely you are under 6 ft?
Seems a strange way of sequence the sentence.
I assume you mean the other way round. But there are few who are very close though.
In PL:
White - 182cm tall (6 ft). Arsenal first choice CB. 37 games this season in England.
Guehi - 182cm tall (6 ft). Crystal Palace first choice CB. 36 games this season in England.
Other top clubs in Europe:
Alaba - 180cm tall (5 ft 11). 45 games mainly as CB this season for Real Madrid. They won the league and got into CL final with him as main CB.
Kalulu - 179cm tall (5 ft 10). 32 games this season mainly as CB for Milan this season. Can also play RB. Milan is currently leader of Serie A.
This obsession with height is beyond me to be honest...
Both in the Timber and Martinez thread.. They are both very quick, have excellent tackles, are very strong on their feet, have excellent timing, know when to hold back, when to get in front of the opponent and win the majority of their duels, no matter how big the space is they need to defend.. Martinez has an amazing long pass, excellent control over the ball on his feet and has the real argentinian grinta going on for him, Timber is extremely calm on the ball, has a great dribble and excellent short passing...
Data shows they both in a lot of aerial duels (also in CL), but lets say they are somewhat more some what more vulnerable in the air... All defenders are vulnerabilities somewhere... Literally all of them... What is the obsession with height and what makes vulnerability in the air so much more of a big deal then vulnerability in (for example) defending large spaces, ground duels, percentage of passes to the right colour..
Both in the Timber and Martinez thread.. They are both very quick, have excellent tackles, are very strong on their feet, have excellent timing, know when to hold back, when to get in front of the opponent and win the majority of their duels, no matter how big the space is they need to defend.. Martinez has an amazing long pass, excellent control over the ball on his feet and has the real argentinian grinta going on for him, Timber is extremely calm on the ball, has a great dribble and excellent short passing...
Data shows they both in a lot of aerial duels (also in CL), but lets say they are somewhat more some what more vulnerable in the air... All defenders are vulnerabilities somewhere... Literally all of them... What is the obsession with height and what makes vulnerability in the air so much more of a big deal then vulnerability in (for example) defending large spaces, ground duels, percentage of passes to the right colour..
Isnt it easier to check out their heading and defending stats than worry about how tall they are. Lindelof is taller than dome defenders but an absolute wimp when it comes to challenging for a header
Last edited:
Agreed for the most part, although calling Martinez very quick is not true at all. I wouldn't call Martinez slow, but definitely not quick. Also I do think height is (still) a bigger factor in PL than in any other league, so it is a weakness that comes into play. On the other hand I do agree with you that for those weaknesses they bring other benefits that most other defenders don't have.
Fair point, Martinez is quite average on speed over longer distance... My point however - as you also deducted - was more about the fixation with height and aerial ability over other qualities.
I think perhaps on average defenders are playing more aerial duels in the PL than in for example La Liga, but look at how Ten Hags wants to play...
The exact formation remains to be seen, but given the principles he follows at all teams he manages - defenders defend around the halfway line and defenders have to show guts in build up from behind - I think for Ten Hags formation other qualities than aerial strengths are more (at least equally) important for a defender.. Ofcourse it helps in set pieces if you have players on the pitch with some height, but that dont necessarily have to be the central defender...
I agree with you. For Ten Hag's football the qualities of Timber and Martinez are more important than their weaknesses. Maguire is the perfect example. Much stronger in the air, more physical, maybe a better tackler as well (although that is more debatable). But he's awful in possession and can't play a high line because he's slow and doesn't understand when to press. On top of that he's poor on the ball as well. If you play that kind of football it's better to have players that do understand these things, even if they are more vulnerable physically.
Sadly most people don't understand this. When you conceed 2 goals from headers out of set pieces they'll start blaming the CB for not winning the header. They will calll the bigger and stronger defenders as the superior defenders, but they don't recognize all the situations where this big and strong defender makes mistakes in pressing which eventually also leads to goals conceded.
Oh please stop it
I don't mind United getting an Ajax player, but not all of them
We haven’t got any of them as of yet, so don’t flap!
Lazy journalism linking us to entire team, but wouldn’t surprise me if one or two come in.
Just wait till the height supremacists from the timber thread get a hold of this lad.
Anyway he's too short, pass.
Anyway he's too short, pass.
I think when you are not familiar with a player or the team they play for, it is natural to look at their statistical profiles. A lot of defensive stats are subject to the style a team plays, for example I saw something on Tifo about how De Ligt has gone from being really strong at the creative parts of his game to being really strong on defensive ends. Doesn't mean he can't do the creative stuff, just means that his team expects different things.
However, when you see someone is 5ft 10, the natural question is would they be exposed in the air. Our current defenders have been frequently criticised for their weakness in the air so it makes sense that we would want improvements. Objectively Timber and Martinez are weaker in aerial duels than both the aforementioned so it is legitimate that its a concern. I'm sure there's other weaknesses they have but we don't have the benefit of seeing them with our own eyes week in week out so rely on objective data points.
Yeah, I dont rate this dude. He's great in the Dutch league, but beyond that, ehh. Also an annoying twat. 
Timber is much more exciting.
Timber is much more exciting.
Sell Bailly and sign him to compete with Lindelof?
Thiago silva hasn’t done too badly at Chelsea, there’s also ake at city who did good at his previous clubs. There’s lots of examples of small CBs make up for their height with good timing and attitude
I have no problem with people having concerns about height... Its indeed an aspect in a defender.. But to me the concerns about height seem disproportional in regards to other - at least equally important - defensive qualities overall..
Yeah, I dont rate this dude. He's great in the Dutch league, but beyond that, ehh. Also an annoying twat.
Timber is much more exciting.
You are just annoyed Dessers didnt get a penalty
I.... Honestly don't remember when, musnt have been too pissed thenI have no problem with people having concerns about height... Its indeed an aspect in a defender.. But to me the concerns about height seem disproportional in regards to other - at least equally important - defensive qualities overall..
I have no problem with having
You are just annoyed Dessers didnt get a penalty
Ah wait I remember, the bodycheck. That was definitely maybe a pen.
Martinez is more a natural leader than Timber.
And Martinez is a better long passer than Timber. Timber with his pace, physical and close ball skills is more of CB that run from defend to midfield. Timber easily pass the first press line of opponent teams.
But again. If you have super fast and skill ful RW. You shall have Martinez for his precise long diagonal passes from the left center back area to RW, special for counter attack or play over the first pressing line. Martinez has complete long passes like Van Dijk for Liverpool. Both in the league and ch.league.
His ball statistic:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/340105/Show/Lisandro-Martínez
Martinez and Timber are different kind of CBs and style. If only pick one of them. It will be difficult. It depend on how you want to play and theirs CB partnership. Example of you have a tall and fast CB next to Martinez. It will be ideal.
A tall, fast and powerful next to Martinez?Do you United have a beast of CB already?
And Martinez is a better long passer than Timber. Timber with his pace, physical and close ball skills is more of CB that run from defend to midfield. Timber easily pass the first press line of opponent teams.
But again. If you have super fast and skill ful RW. You shall have Martinez for his precise long diagonal passes from the left center back area to RW, special for counter attack or play over the first pressing line. Martinez has complete long passes like Van Dijk for Liverpool. Both in the league and ch.league.
His ball statistic:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/340105/Show/Lisandro-Martínez
Martinez and Timber are different kind of CBs and style. If only pick one of them. It will be difficult. It depend on how you want to play and theirs CB partnership. Example of you have a tall and fast CB next to Martinez. It will be ideal.
A tall, fast and powerful next to Martinez?Do you United have a beast of CB already?
- Status