Weren't we meant to have moved away from the "head coach" being in charge of everything? Its pretty obvious our scouts are having no input on these targets. I mean its ETH so you back him all the way theres no problem there its just an issue if it goes tits up again.
Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United
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Still believe next window there will be less focus on players who have played under Ten Hag or from the Dutch league
What have our scouts shown in recent times that would make anyone want to take their input on board? As I said in another thread, give them a year or two to get their affairs in order. Our scouting isn’t worth anything right now.
Years ago I was led to believe that you needed to be built like a brick shite house to be able to stand a chance in professional rugby. Then you look at players like Jason Robinson, Cheslin Kolbe and Shane Williams to name a few who are highly successful professionals playing key rolls in the success of their national teams on the international stage.
This obsession with players needing to fit certain physical attributes needs to stop.
Blind Coped fine, and he's not anywhere near as physical as Martinez is by the looks of it.
He's essentially the start of the plan, get players in who fit his style, it's the next manager needs to have a similar way of playing which suits the squad at the time. If we go from Ten Hag to Diego Simeone then you know nothings really changed.
Believe we're getting players he's comfortable/familiar with to ease the transition to a pretty drastic change in style.
I'm still struggling to understand why we want Lisandro Martinez. He will be the shortest CB in the league bar none (Timber is taller and would have been that too). Why not go for an actual DM if you want one? And there's better options for a left-footed CB who's good on the ball. But hey, it's new manager time so I guess we have to trust him on this one.
Lisandro is a good player in his own right, but I believe he would be more useful to us as a midfielder. My main complaint is that the current strategy appears to ignore a gaping hole in our team's profile, which means we are completely unprepared to deal with anything aerially, anything above shoulder height, and this current crop will be scrambling.
All of the data-savvy and data-driven clubs appear to have caught on to the heuristic that having dominant defenders with supreme aerial ability is an absolute requirement for competing at the top level: there is no workaround for this.
It's a shame we don't appear to be following best practices, and it will definitely bite us in the arse.
All of the data-savvy and data-driven clubs appear to have caught on to the heuristic that having dominant defenders with supreme aerial ability is an absolute requirement for competing at the top level: there is no workaround for this.
It's a shame we don't appear to be following best practices, and it will definitely bite us in the arse.
That's great and all but the reality is how many CBs of Lisandro's height are playing at the top level? How many of them are starting in teams' of City's, Liverpool's, Bayern's, and Madrid's quality? Out of the top 10 CBs for each year for the past 10 years, how many of them were Lisandro's height playing at the top level?
Hey, maybe 1.75m really can make it at the top level in today's game; I'd just rather we not be the first club to take the risk and start that meta. It's been 9 years since our last league win, let's not spend 50m+ on a ridiculously risky CB when we're already on a tight budget. I prefer we go for the winning and working formula that other top clubs use instead.
This signing just doesn't make sense to me. Especially if we're signing Malacia at left back. I just can't see a 5 foot 7 centre back excelling in the league. Also, we have 3 centre backs that I'd imagine we'd want to give another chance to, in a new system that hopefully puts us in more control of games, meaning less constant pressure on them.
What we need is a CB/RB hybrid that can be our 4th centre back but also split time at RB with Dalot once AWB is sold. This is why Timber makes so much more sense to me. He fills a need and can in theory challenge at RB immediately. It also allows us to see how he'll cope at centre back without putting immediate starter pressure on him.
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You're right I can't think of many short CB that have been successful over the years at those elite clubs but I trust the manager in the types of players he wants at the club.
He has the ability to step into the midfield from his CB position just like how comfortably Blind does for Ajax. More importantly he's comfortable on the ball doing so and able to operate in that space with 0 issues.
He'll also be able to rotate to LB if need be. There's a lot of versatility in this player and I'm sure this is what is attractive to Ten Hag. That left side of ours will be rock solid with Malacia and Martinez stationed there.
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He has the ability to step into the midfield from his CB position just like how comfortably Blind does for Ajax. More importantly he's comfortable on the ball doing so and able to operate in that space with 0 issues.
He'll also be able to rotate to LB if need be. There's a lot of versatility in this player and I'm sure this is what is attractive to Ten Hag. That left side of ours will be rock solid with Malacia and Martinez stationed there.
Nice to see we are back to debating height.
On another note, are his ball playing abilities as good as it's made out to be?
On another note, are his ball playing abilities as good as it's made out to be?
How many teams play long ball football other than Liverpool in the league? Not many now that Burnley have been relegated. The aerial issue is overstated.
Disagree about overstated. However you can cover up one or two aerial weakness at setpeices by good teamwork imo. However now without Matic height, DeGea not the best at crosses, with him at CB we'd have more weaknesses than we can cover up.
I just don't see this though. We shall see
According to WhoScored, he won 3.3 aerials per game last season in the Eredivisie, tied for 11th best.
EPL comparison...
Varane 2.5
Maguire 2.5
van Dijk 3.4
Matip 3.5
Stones 3.4
Dias 1.8
Silva 1.8
Rudiger 1.6
Dier 2.0
Davies 2.3
EPL comparison...
Varane 2.5
Maguire 2.5
van Dijk 3.4
Matip 3.5
Stones 3.4
Dias 1.8
Silva 1.8
Rudiger 1.6
Dier 2.0
Davies 2.3
Seeing a lot of posts concerned about his height or lack of it. So here are my thoughts on the subject.
I think the role of modern centre back has evolved over time. If you want to create a fluid attacking team then you need a player who is comfortable with the ball at all times, is quick and preferably have a low centre of gravity. Someone who can start attacks by building plays but who also can ideally break the press with penetrative passes and dribbles.
In a functioning team the value of Height is overrated in my view. Centre back area is our Achilles heel in terms of our footballing identity. If we don't want to be low blocking counter attacking team, then it is imperative that we get someone in who can play in this particular way. We do have Varane who fits the bill but there are question marks over his fitness. Apart from him there is nobody.
That is why this deal is such a no brainer. Martinez is the perfect player for the role, is press resistant, switches the play effortlessly, is extremely tenacious and reads the game very well. I think he is going to be a resounding success as a centre back in a possession based attacking team that ETH wants us to be.
I think the role of modern centre back has evolved over time. If you want to create a fluid attacking team then you need a player who is comfortable with the ball at all times, is quick and preferably have a low centre of gravity. Someone who can start attacks by building plays but who also can ideally break the press with penetrative passes and dribbles.
In a functioning team the value of Height is overrated in my view. Centre back area is our Achilles heel in terms of our footballing identity. If we don't want to be low blocking counter attacking team, then it is imperative that we get someone in who can play in this particular way. We do have Varane who fits the bill but there are question marks over his fitness. Apart from him there is nobody.
That is why this deal is such a no brainer. Martinez is the perfect player for the role, is press resistant, switches the play effortlessly, is extremely tenacious and reads the game very well. I think he is going to be a resounding success as a centre back in a possession based attacking team that ETH wants us to be.
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Unbelievable on the ball for a defender imo, although I don't pretend to watch Ajax on a regular basis. When I've seen him play he's pinged it around like noone's business and has very quick feet dribbling out of danger as well. You can tell he started as a midfielder. Very aggressive though, similarly to Maguire likes to step up very high to win the ball although he's obviously faster. Don't think we'd be able to play the two of them together unless Harry was instructed to be a lot more disciplined positionally (and Maguire has barely played RCB anyways).
You have no idea what the plan is. For all we know,he could be that guy who will step into midfield as a partner to FDJ while FDJ roams around. He would still be part of a defence 3 .
Height isn't an issue any more. We have one of the tallest teams in the league and conceded so many set pieces. Maguire, McTom, Matic, Varane are all fecking huge.
If we play possession based football then it won't matter unless we play whoever the next Burnley are.
If we play possession based football then it won't matter unless we play whoever the next Burnley are.
This looks to be what is on the cards if this signing goes through. Blind does that for Ajax and is damn good at it. He's not the tallest defender either but that team works because they have comfortable ball playing CB's that can roam between midfield and defense and be comfortable doing that.
If Martinez signing goes through I can see him being the Daley Blind in our setup.
I feel like redcafe want us to be another Stoke looking at how most posters are completely obsessed with height and physicality, as if it's the ultimate recipe for a winning squad 
Maybe he could jump very high or something. He got high stats of winning arial duels last season as CB.
5'9" is pretty short for a CB.. any other position, its fine.. but for a CB it is far from ideal..I feel like redcafe want us to be another Stoke looking at how most posters are completely obsessed with height and physicality, as if it's the ultimate recipe for a winning squad
Its not the only factor and he might not even play there (if we get him), but I can understand the concern.
But then again.. ETH has coached him.. he knows a lot more..
Its about comfort on the ball, being press resistant and spatial awareness that's most important in a modern CB.
The days of sticking two beanpoles in central defense and hoping for the best is long gone.
Blind is like a fingernail taller than this guy and he's done an amazing job in that Ajax defence.
I don't know if he's going to make it here or not(although I've been impressed by his tenacity) but outliers exist, the greatest defensive center back of all time wasn't too tall and that lad Puyol didn't do too bad for himself either.
Exceptions exist, whether he'll be one is another discussion.
Maybe Lindelof is the CB / RB hybrid.
Not sure now, Mascha was short and he played well as CB for Barca.
Looking at our past records, I rather go with ETHs list than our scouts
Many examples of top class shorter CBs - Ayala, Cannavaro, Mascherano, Baresi. Even Bobby Moore was a similar height to Martinez.
That said, him playing LCB alongside Malacia who is even shorter could leave us vulnerable at set pieces whilst both acclimatise.
That said, him playing LCB alongside Malacia who is even shorter could leave us vulnerable at set pieces whilst both acclimatise.
Martinez will be bought to play in midfield imho
Didn’t we turned down fdj - maguire swap?
Didn’t we turned down fdj - maguire swap?
The way a lot talks about height is hilarious. The Premier League is not as physical as it used to be, when talking about 1-2 huge strong strikers and just kick the ball to him in the penalty area.
Daley Blind did well when he played, and Lisandro will do even better.
If we really want to believe in the philosophy of ten Hag, he must get the players to fulfill it. When we play more possession based, we need another kind of players than under Mourinho and Ole.
I really don't see the issue with his lack of height. It's not about lacking the last few centimeters, it's all about the performance
Daley Blind did well when he played, and Lisandro will do even better.
If we really want to believe in the philosophy of ten Hag, he must get the players to fulfill it. When we play more possession based, we need another kind of players than under Mourinho and Ole.
I really don't see the issue with his lack of height. It's not about lacking the last few centimeters, it's all about the performance
Timber excited me more if I'm being honest.
Still think we could go back for him after World Cup or maybe this story is really a smokescreen for Timber
Drink!
If we're hijacking deals, it does only seem right we whip out the old smokescreen too.
For me the signing makes sense. We wanted Timber as versatile cover for CB/RB/DM but missed out due to LVG. Buying Martinez allows us to cover CB/DM whilst still allowing us to move for Timber in January or next summer.
I completely understand everyones concerns about his height and agree it might become a weakness for us if Malacia is also playing. However, I believe ten Hag is willing to play the percentages on this. If he can turn us into a team that presses high and squeezes our opponent into their own half and then when we have the ball dominate 70% of the possession (both of which are helped by a player like Martinez) then there will be far fewer opportunities for him to be beaten in the air to concede a goal. If the team is so good with the ball that we score 3 or 4 a game it wont matter if we concede the odd corner. Also, there are so few teams that are actually good headers of the ball these days I think its becoming less of a factor.
With that being said, the Martinez signing isnt even really about his footballing abilities. Its about character. We HAVE to change the culture of the dressing room and we HAVE to make sure the players buy into the managers plans. Therefore we are ignoring our scouting department this summer in favour of brining in characters that the manager knows will follow him. If he can put 6 of them on the pitch each week and get buy in from a handful of the existing squad then he has a base to work from in 23/24.
Martinez is a no brainer for me now that we've missed out on Timber.
I completely understand everyones concerns about his height and agree it might become a weakness for us if Malacia is also playing. However, I believe ten Hag is willing to play the percentages on this. If he can turn us into a team that presses high and squeezes our opponent into their own half and then when we have the ball dominate 70% of the possession (both of which are helped by a player like Martinez) then there will be far fewer opportunities for him to be beaten in the air to concede a goal. If the team is so good with the ball that we score 3 or 4 a game it wont matter if we concede the odd corner. Also, there are so few teams that are actually good headers of the ball these days I think its becoming less of a factor.
With that being said, the Martinez signing isnt even really about his footballing abilities. Its about character. We HAVE to change the culture of the dressing room and we HAVE to make sure the players buy into the managers plans. Therefore we are ignoring our scouting department this summer in favour of brining in characters that the manager knows will follow him. If he can put 6 of them on the pitch each week and get buy in from a handful of the existing squad then he has a base to work from in 23/24.
Martinez is a no brainer for me now that we've missed out on Timber.
Yeah totally nailed it with this post, think that's exactly what Erik is trying to do this summer
If we are going to buy a CB I think I would prefer Torres.
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