Fact of the matter is, he's so good that no matter what club he went to, they would accomodate the style/approach for him. So I don't see there being a big discrepancy in performances.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
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Fact of the matter is, he's so good that no matter what club he went to, they would accomodate the style/approach for him. So I don't see there being a big discrepancy in performances.
"In qualifying for the 2018 World Cup, without Messi in the line-up Argentina earned just 7 points from 8 games – an average that would have left the 2-time World Champions 8th out of 10 countries in CONMEBOL qualifying over 18 games. When Messi started, Argentina took 21 points from 10 games - an average that would have placed La Albiceleste comfortably in second place just Brazil 3 points behind Brazil." In the final game to qualify them for the tournament, he scored a hat-trick against Ecuador.
He has won World Cup Golden Ball and Copa America Golden Ball, Copa America best young player, four-time Copa America team of the tournament. He hasn't won a major internationally but neither did Cruyff, Di Stefano and others and his international career is fine, while his club career was out of this world. He has carried Argentina many times but it's a team game there's only so much you can do when Otamendi is your best defender or if Maradona is your manager.
Good post. If Messi can't "carry" a football team then no footballer I've ever seen can. Besides people really are obsessed with this not being a team sport. It is and always will be one.
He's the current Ballon'dor holder because he carried Barcelona last season. I don't really see this one-man team as the single determining factor. The greatest players tend end up playing the best teams. The exception is Maradonna, but that was because his lack of professional and discipline meant he couldnt stay at Barca. Sure he is immortalized for his WC win and his 2 Seria A titles with Napoli was were really legendary achievements, but for player often considered the best of all time, he won incredibly little at club level for that reason.
Alan Shearer carried Blackburn to a PL title and well "carried" Newcastle despite the fact they didn't really win major trophies, but if he had joined us instead his career would have been much greater. Most great players want to play with other great players. They don't want to be one-man teams.
How are City and Bayern really obvious choices for Messi? I'd argue they are both a step down from Barcelona and the bundesliga is a lesser league than La Liga. It's seems no one appreciates what Messi has given Barcelona fans. I wouldn't see Ronaldo as an inferior player if he had stayed at United till his retirement.
yep. I've always found it hilarious in that other thread when someone says how everything is easy for him because of Barcelona's style of football. it tells you immediately which posters haven't been watching Barca ever since Iniesta & Xavi days probably. the truth is, the only reason why a free kick or having to dribble past 2 or 3 defenders is being considered a good chance is because he's simply that good. in any other circumstances, the most obvious example being current Juve & Ronaldo, if those were your best chances in a match we would be talking how "the team don't create enough for him".
when you see the quality of his goals you could be led to believe that Barca still play some cracking football, but in reality most of his goals are simply forced by him and majority of them are stunners because sometimes it's the only way to score. he certainly doesn't return for the ball so deep because he likes running so much. yesterday was good example of that, yet again. gets the ball and has 5 Napoli players in front - that's only a chance because it's him. after that he takes the ball from Koulibaly and gets a penalty - again, entirely forced by him. "Barca's style" did nothing for him yesterday. he didn't get a single useful ball in second half.
Similar styles to Barcelona, especially City, and both had Pep there.
Remember we are comparing him to the likes of Maradona. People will always question whether he could have dragged an inferior or unfamiliar team over the line. He didnt do it with Argentina so moving clubs would have been the only way to show it.
Absolutely did the right thing. Loyalty is forgotten in the modern game.
Though kind of unfair only Barca got to experience him.
Doubt he could handle the pressure of playing in De Kuip. You hear me Lionel? Come and prove me wrong, fraud!
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Please?
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Please?
When Messi eventually hangs up his tiny little boots he's going to be sat at a park bench,gazing beyond the lake in a late July evening with a class of fine Malbec wine beside him, wondering with deep regret that he never took up the chance to sign for Accrington Stanley and propel them to Champion League glory just to show the world how much of a footballing genius he truly was.
Bayern fan here. With me it's kinda complicated, like i was huge Ozil fan when he eventually broke out at Werder and when he moved to Real, i was like OK Ronaldo is the best player in the world. I didn't know much about Messi tbh, only the hype and couple odd games i had seen, but when i finally saw him in action, geeeeeeeeeeeez that guy. Absolutely unreal, without doubt the best player in the world and whoever doubts this, i can't take seriously. Like how do you watch this guy and come to a conclusion that someone is better? It's impossible. I still love Ronaldo, he is amazing, physical attributes and all, he is the perfect striker, but Messi is the perfect player.
But say Maradona never won the European Cup despite playing in European football for 10 years. Even if it was much harder to get there, it was more like the World Cup in that way that you don't judge a player by their failure to do it. But Napoli lost to Real Madrid and Spartak Moscow in his two attempts. Maradona also failed at Barcelona relative to Messi, his 'big club' opportunity. And Maradona was almost done as a top-level player by 30 whereas is still best in the world at 33.
Maradona suited the small team underdog mentality and leading them. Pele suited a top team and elevating them to even greater heights. Messi is more like Pele than Maradona. But it's horses for courses. Maradona couldn't play well for a top team for 12 years straight like Messi has done, no chance. Too many personal problems and not as consistent.
Did they bid for him? Did Barcelona accept a bid?
It's all good saying he should have moved but he can't just magic himself to another team.
33 years old and still the world's best attacking player with no signs of slowing down, while Ronaldo is finally starting to look human. Messi will retire as the greatest ever now I think.
The whole "move to another team" argument has never made sense. Ever. For so many reasons.
Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, none of these guys carried "weak" teams to anything. :S Firstly, given that players run about literally twice as much each match as they did in the 50s, 60s and 70s, its even less possible now than it was then. No-one thinks less of Cruyff because they lost a WC final. No-one thinks less of Pele because he was surrounded by great players at Santos and Brazil. (and several of his "league titles were won over 4-5 games. Seriously, go look it up). No-one thinks less of Maradona for having a comparably small trophy collection for such a vast talent. If anything it's the opposite, the 86 Argentina team was their best ever team, yet legendary names like Bochini, Passarella, Valdano, Ruggeri, Burruchaga etc have been airbrushed as "plumbers" to enhance the legend.
The reality is, given who these debates tend to be focussed on, if you put Messi and Ronaldo in League One level teams, what you will actually see is;
Messi constantly looking for passes and not making any, because teammates wouldn't have the understanding and quickness to make the off the ball decisions, so he would end up trying to force passes to drive the players to run and end up loosing the ball all the time.
Ronaldo constantly trying to make sharp runs to open space and never receiving the ball because the plodders in midfield didn't react quickly enough and didn't have the vision or technique to place the ball, so he would end up being offside 30 times a game and never getting the ball in the right spaces.
La Liga has been, for the whole time these two guys have played, been generally the no.1 ranked league by UEFA, except for a few years where it was no.2. With all due respect, what would moving to Serie A or whatever prove? It's a step down by all metrics, it's not a "challenge" at all. This is the issue with the people who want to use stats for everything. Pure, cold numbers can't tell the full story. Some people might finally see that given that for example Ronaldo did everything he could against Lyon in that game, but Juve still went out. Ronaldo did his part, the others didn't, and now they are out.
Because Higuain will always suck.
Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, none of these guys carried "weak" teams to anything. :S Firstly, given that players run about literally twice as much each match as they did in the 50s, 60s and 70s, its even less possible now than it was then. No-one thinks less of Cruyff because they lost a WC final. No-one thinks less of Pele because he was surrounded by great players at Santos and Brazil. (and several of his "league titles were won over 4-5 games. Seriously, go look it up). No-one thinks less of Maradona for having a comparably small trophy collection for such a vast talent. If anything it's the opposite, the 86 Argentina team was their best ever team, yet legendary names like Bochini, Passarella, Valdano, Ruggeri, Burruchaga etc have been airbrushed as "plumbers" to enhance the legend.
The reality is, given who these debates tend to be focussed on, if you put Messi and Ronaldo in League One level teams, what you will actually see is;
Messi constantly looking for passes and not making any, because teammates wouldn't have the understanding and quickness to make the off the ball decisions, so he would end up trying to force passes to drive the players to run and end up loosing the ball all the time.
Ronaldo constantly trying to make sharp runs to open space and never receiving the ball because the plodders in midfield didn't react quickly enough and didn't have the vision or technique to place the ball, so he would end up being offside 30 times a game and never getting the ball in the right spaces.
La Liga has been, for the whole time these two guys have played, been generally the no.1 ranked league by UEFA, except for a few years where it was no.2. With all due respect, what would moving to Serie A or whatever prove? It's a step down by all metrics, it's not a "challenge" at all. This is the issue with the people who want to use stats for everything. Pure, cold numbers can't tell the full story. Some people might finally see that given that for example Ronaldo did everything he could against Lyon in that game, but Juve still went out. Ronaldo did his part, the others didn't, and now they are out.
Because Higuain will always suck.
Yeah, it's why I always say Giggs and Scholes are not true legends. They never even tried to test themselves in other environments. Too busy being lazy winning every trophy imaginable.
In all seriousness though, it's such a contrived argument stemming solely from the fact that Ronaldo has won with multiple teams. That's the only reason it's even brought up.
I think it's just a natural evolution of all the other arguments that presented cherry picked stats in order to make Ronaldo look better. It used to be goalscoring stats, but then Messi started scoring more goals, as well as being Messi, so that was obviously not a viable argument. Now we have this.
I think it's just a natural evolution of all the other arguments that presented cherry picked stats in order to make Ronaldo look better. It used to be goalscoring stats, but then Messi started scoring more goals, as well as being Messi, so that was obviously not a viable argument. Now we have this.
Aye, it’s clear that those carrying the “has never carried a team narrative” has either not really been watching Barca/Arg or they just have a preconceived notion (agenda/bias) that can’t be changed. Because honestly, no one who has been following his career can accuse him of that.
It’s funny because people used to judge Argentina by looking at the names: Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, Dybala, di Maria, Icardi [insert any random attacker] & automatically claiming Messi failed with that “talent”. Conveniently ignoring most of those players vied for similar positions and they were not very good for Argentina.The whole "move to another team" argument has never made sense. Ever. For so many reasons.
Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, none of these guys carried "weak" teams to anything. :S Firstly, given that players run about literally twice as much each match as they did in the 50s, 60s and 70s, its even less possible now than it was then. No-one thinks less of Cruyff because they lost a WC final. No-one thinks less of Pele because he was surrounded by great players at Santos and Brazil. (and several of his "league titles were won over 4-5 games. Seriously, go look it up). No-one thinks less of Maradona for having a comparably small trophy collection for such a vast talent. If anything it's the opposite, the 86 Argentina team was their best ever team, yet legendary names like Bochini, Passarella, Valdano, Ruggeri, Burruchaga etc have been airbrushed as "plumbers" to enhance the legend.
The reality is, given who these debates tend to be focussed on, if you put Messi and Ronaldo in League One level teams, what you will actually see is;
Messi constantly looking for passes and not making any, because teammates wouldn't have the understanding and quickness to make the off the ball decisions, so he would end up trying to force passes to drive the players to run and end up loosing the ball all the time.
Ronaldo constantly trying to make sharp runs to open space and never receiving the ball because the plodders in midfield didn't react quickly enough and didn't have the vision or technique to place the ball, so he would end up being offside 30 times a game and never getting the ball in the right spaces.
La Liga has been, for the whole time these two guys have played, been generally the no.1 ranked league by UEFA, except for a few years where it was no.2. With all due respect, what would moving to Serie A or whatever prove? It's a step down by all metrics, it's not a "challenge" at all. This is the issue with the people who want to use stats for everything. Pure, cold numbers can't tell the full story. Some people might finally see that given that for example Ronaldo did everything he could against Lyon in that game, but Juve still went out. Ronaldo did his part, the others didn't, and now they are out.
Because Higuain will always suck.
Now that Ronaldo is forced to play with Higuain, maybe they understand it a bit more.
I think Messi does what makes him happy. He doesnt give a toss about what Ronaldo fans thinks he ought to have done with his career.
Hell of a finish that was. What a player
You cant really blame Maradona for not winning a competition he didnt play in. He only had one real go at the European Cup (he went on a massive bender before the Moscow game and was banished to the bench), and he did win the UEFA Cup. Any other opportunity was brought to an end by a mixture of injuries, fights and drug problems, but never by a lack of talent.
You only have 3 real contenders for the best of all time, and when the other two have a lot more variety to what they have achieved it will always be something that gets asked about Messi.
There is more than 3 real contenders. Go ask the majority of great players and managers who the best of all time is. Or go look at surveys and polls.
But you could say that Maradona failed to qualify, he didn't win the league with Barcelona, injuries affected that sure, but he was a world record player there. He was another world record player at Napoli. When you talk about Messi should have left to test himself in other environments, maybe Maradona could have left in search of winning the European Cup if he wanted a better chance of it?
Maradona going on a massive bender is his own fault as a player, same way that poor discipline and cocaine hindered his career. That's not an excuse, he chose that path and Messi should be rewarded for being so professional, still dominating games at 33.
Messi had a better club career than Maradona, while Maradona had a better international career than Messi. Nobody ever points out what Maradona failed to win at club level like they pick on what Messi failed to win at international level. Not saying Maradona wasn't great at Napoli but why didn't he drag Napoli through the European Cup against Real Madrid and win? Because it's a team game and you're only as good as your team-mates.
I would rather move away from 'what have your teams won' comparisons of players anyway. There's enough playing evidence of these players, the idea that Higuain scores and Messi suddenly becomes a better player is mad. Or Eder scores a screamer and Giroud hits the post while Ronaldo is off injured and Ronaldo is suddenly better than if the other way around happens. It's a team game, it's not golf or tennis, there are far too many external factors to just base entirely on what player won what.
I'm not buying the agenda that he should play in another league/team to prove he's one of, if not the, greatest player of all time. My one negative is the same one I hold against CR7 as well, the lack of scoring in knock-out stages of the world cup, the highest international competition. It is one of the most staggering fact in football to me that neither of these absolute legends scored even one goal, not even one penalty, in the knock-out stage of the elite international competition which they've participated in since 2006, especially given they've had decent to good teams throughout their careers to work with.
Another class performance yesterday. Joy to watch.
That's the thing. Ronaldo fans scan both vitas and identify the few very specific areas in which he has excelled Messi, e. g. proving it at different teams and CL knockout goals. Then they suddenly claim that those areas are actually the most important ones and repeat themselves on and on. It wouldn't even matter if Messi equalized in those regards since they would search for another argument, however minor it may be. Their way of assessing of a football player's quality is dynamic and dependent on what makes Ronaldo look better - which means their priorities change based on his situation.
You could pretty say that you're a Ronaldo fan out of sympathy but a Messi fan out of conviction
Tbh imagine being a 12 year old Barcelona fan watching his debut at following him Nou Camp till this day. If players like Best, Cantona, Charlton and Giggs are club legends I dont know what Messi is to Barca fans.
Probably more like a Sir Alex type figure to them.
The Pope?
Or just “the Tiger Woods of football”? Better for longer though, and without being a real piece of work as a person.
Good lord one summer’s work in a tournament nowhere near the standard of every single season’s Champions League really gets used a lot for Maradona doesn’t it.
Spot on, it is the biggest black mark on their careers and they had lots of chances. Too much is made of Ronaldo’s Euros relative to Messi’s Copa Americas because of European bias/it is on TV non stop here vs not on at all, but the World Cup is the only tournament where great players from all nations, the great equaliser and for neither to have scored is shocking. They may be the best club players of all time but in terms of World Cup performance they wouldn’t scratch the top 20.
For me Messi along with Maradona and Pele belong to tier 1.
Ronaldo is a player who belongs to the second tier and purely because of his goal scoring exploits and longevity despite otherwise relatively average allround play compared to the likes of Cruiyff, Ronaldo brazil (prior to injury), Ronaldinho, etcetra who belong in this tier.
So, there is absolutely no comparison.
Ronaldo is a player who belongs to the second tier and purely because of his goal scoring exploits and longevity despite otherwise relatively average allround play compared to the likes of Cruiyff, Ronaldo brazil (prior to injury), Ronaldinho, etcetra who belong in this tier.
So, there is absolutely no comparison.
Its very easy to know which player is the best when you see how high the bars are for each one of them.
CR7 goes out the CL to way weaker teams two seasons in a row:
"He conquered Italy"
Messi goes out the CL losing to the team that will eventually win the CL:
"He flopped"
CR7 goes out the WC losing to Uruguay
"Amazing player, cant believe he made it that far"
Messi goes out the WC losing to France who would eventually win the WC:
"Classic Messi flopping"
And hundreds of more examples like that. No single player has carried any other team to championships before better than Messi has. Its extremely difficult to be the single reason why a team wins trophies in a sport that involves 30+ professionals playing at the same time who are the best i the world at what they do.
If you look at Messi's statistics, every single one of them, dribbles, goals, trough balls, key passes, assists to assists, points won by his goals, etc, he is #1 in every single one of those.
No player in history has carried a team to victory more than Messi.
CR7 goes out the CL to way weaker teams two seasons in a row:
"He conquered Italy"
Messi goes out the CL losing to the team that will eventually win the CL:
"He flopped"
CR7 goes out the WC losing to Uruguay
"Amazing player, cant believe he made it that far"
Messi goes out the WC losing to France who would eventually win the WC:
"Classic Messi flopping"
And hundreds of more examples like that. No single player has carried any other team to championships before better than Messi has. Its extremely difficult to be the single reason why a team wins trophies in a sport that involves 30+ professionals playing at the same time who are the best i the world at what they do.
If you look at Messi's statistics, every single one of them, dribbles, goals, trough balls, key passes, assists to assists, points won by his goals, etc, he is #1 in every single one of those.
No player in history has carried a team to victory more than Messi.
Maradona's personal demons detract from his overall career, but not how good he was as a player. He achieved against the odds in two World Cups and two Serie A seasons. He was also extremely good at Barcelona, he just didnt fit. For Messi to have done virtually nothing in major international competition is a big black mark, and he hasnt got another club on his CV for us to say 'Argentina is a one off' as he has performed there instead.
I think the 'what have your teams won' is worthwhile for these kinds of players, because they are so instrumental to what the team does. Barcelona has been a one man team at times as was Napoli and Argentina back then.
What it comes down to is that we have seen Messi in only two environments. In one he has been as good as anyone ever, in the other he failed. Is that enough to say hes the greatest ever? For me, it's not.
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Any news if he suffered a knock?
I'm guessing he's fine since I didn't see anything.
I'm guessing he's fine since I didn't see anything.
He helped argentina get to three international tournament finals. Hardly nothing.
Fair enough that people give an edge to CR7 for going to Juventus and doing very little different to what they're used to, or having been at United in one of the best teams in England at the time (let's be honest, the best along with Chelsea), but that Euro 2016 I'm giving him close to 0 credit for because, first of all, in any other Euro that Portugese team would have gone out in the group stages but that year for some reason they allowed the third placed team to still have a chance to qualify, they were dreadful all the way to the final and CR7 didn't even participate in the final since Payet took him out early into it unfortunately for him.
So if we want to ignore all of that and praise CR7 for his achievements internationally, then by all means but it means far less when you just put a little context behind that Euro 2016. I actually give some credit to Messi for getting Argentina far in the tournaments, but neither of those legends should be praised for their international achievements, it's their big black mark on their legacy, especially when it comes to impact in knock out games.
So if we want to ignore all of that and praise CR7 for his achievements internationally, then by all means but it means far less when you just put a little context behind that Euro 2016. I actually give some credit to Messi for getting Argentina far in the tournaments, but neither of those legends should be praised for their international achievements, it's their big black mark on their legacy, especially when it comes to impact in knock out games.
This joke is starting to get old, Argentina won the WC 8 years before Maradona, it's like saying Spain winning the WC in 2018 would be "an unexpected occurrence", why would Argentina winning the 86 WC be unexpected, because in 82 they finished with 0 points on a group with Italy (the champions) and Brazil?.
Exactly. If you remove club career in a hypothetical scenario, I don't think Messi nor Ronaldo have a case for top 10 international career/performances.
This idea that Ronaldo has clearly outperformed Messi on an international stage is untrue. They're both on a similar level.